War with Iran

[Volker]

Doesnt matter if its 'super' or not.

Do Know what cavitation is?

Its when a propellor spins fast enough that the drop in pressure on the low-side of the prop causes the water to turn to gas. The speed at which this happens depends on the depth of the water, but its possible at any depth. Your 4x speed propellors are going to be spinning awfully darn fast, so...

Anyway, when these bubbles of gas fall out of the low-pressure zone, they collapse back to liquid water -- and make a ton of noise.

This is possible, but you look at the high speed and the ranges we talk about, this collapse could happen too late to have a warning effect.

The props alone will make so much noise that you'll hear it a zillion miles away. No way to stop this; if there were, all torpedoes would be silent.

There are no props, that's why they call it a missile.

 

[Goobieman]

This is possible, but you look at the high speed and the ranges we talk about, this collapse could happen too late to have a warning effect.

The bubbles last a fraction of a second.

There are no props, that's why they call it a missile.

And the noise from the rocket motor?

 

[PeteEU]

The upbound and downbound channels are both 3 miles wide, and there is a 2 mile wide buffer between them, making a total width of 8 miles - and this is just the maked passage; there's a fair bit of deep water to the north that can be used as well.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/ir655-chart-2888-1580px.html

You need a bit more than a "few tankers" to block the straits.

The channels are 1 mile wide with a 2 mile bufferzone. Sinking ships and mineing this small area would be very easy and would effectively block the channel for any large ships like an aircraft carrier. Of course the US navy and others could just "clean" the channels but under what conditions would such a channel clearing be conducted under?

Also a aircraft carrier aint exactly the most mobile ship on the highseas, unless you believe that they can turn 180 with in a 3 mile area...

 

[Volker]

The bubbles last a fraction of a second.

It's one big bubble for the first time.

And the noise from the rocket motor?

Maybe it's virtually silent for sonar.

 

[Goobieman]

It's one big bubble for the first time.

Maybe it's virtually silent for sonar.

Maybe it moves by magic!!!!

Its a "high pressure stream of bubbles'. Supercavitation. Noisy.
Every rocket motor makes noise. Its inescabable.

Now you can contimue to believe Iranian propoganda, or you can listen to people that know better. Your call.

 

[Goobieman]

The channels are 1 mile wide with a 2 mile bufferzone.

The chart shows otherwise. The channel is 2, not 3 miles wide. My bad.

Sinking ships and mineing this small area would be very easy

Sinking enough of them eoudl not, especially once they started doing it. Remember also that there is navagable wather outside the channel.

Also a aircraft carrier aint exactly the most mobile ship on the highseas, unless you believe that they can turn 180 with in a 3 mile area...

I am intimately familair with the manuverability oif large ships. You will need a LOT of ships to block more than 6 miles of channel.

 

[Volker]

Maybe it moves by magic!!!!

Its a "high pressure stream of bubbles'. Supercavitation. Noisy.
Every rocket motor makes noise. Its inescabable.

Now you can contimue to believe Iranian propoganda, or you can listen to people that know better. Your call.

You did not convince me to know better and Mr. Fadavi seems to know about the topic.

 

[Goobieman]

You did not convince me to know better

Then you either cannot be convinced or you simply refuse to be convinced.
Doesnt matter to me.

 

[easyt65]

So now, the USS Einsenhower is traveling to the Iran area..I pray it's going there just to support the Iraq mission, and not for an October surprise from Bush to start a war with Iran. Gulf of Tonkin sound familiar?

God save us from these war hungry imbecilic republicans!

:shock: :roll: What a moronic post! This absolutley proves you have no knowledge of the military and no concept of military operations.

1st, Carriers rotate in and out of that region ALL the time! With what's going on with NK, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyont that we are moving another carrier somewhere into that half of the world.

The 1st sign of a war with Iran would NOT be another carrier moving into the area. Although we have quite a few people and supplies over there, we do not have anywhere near the forces or supplies we would require to engage in such an operation as taking on Iran. You would see a huge build/run-up/prep of cargo planes (C-130s, C-141s, etc), a large number of the planes we have brought home (especially specific 'specialty' planes) deploying over, a huge troop build up, missile defense systems deployed over (the majority of which have been re-constituted back at home)....All of this would take MONTHS! Just think back to pre-Afghanistan/Iraq, if you can remember back to that point, and you will remember the troop dispersal, staging bases, months of build up!

Throw in that we are already spread across Afghanistan and Iraq, there is no way we are going to cross that bridge right now. Iran isn't even the biggest threat right now! North korea is a POTENTIALLY bigger threat that Iran.
- NK has supposedly tested a Nuke.
- NK has demanded 1-on-1 talks with the U.S. or it might launch a nuke.
- NK has said they would consider sanctions an act of war.
- NK's border guards/troops have been trying to initiate/goad SK/American border guards into starting comething on the border for the last week or so (shots were fired/exchanged just 2 days ago)

Although Iran has called for the destruction of Israel, has proclaimed we would be next, and is defying the U.N. by continuing plutonium enrichment, we have a North korean nut Job (potentially) with a nuke and is either trying to bluff or actually start something. Iran has been bumped down the list of @$$holes to worry about for now!

So, this theatrical 'God help us from the blah, blah, blah' BS is just that - BS!

Someone else added that it would be just like bush to try to stay in office by starting a war -- We are ALREADY in a war! :doh

As far as the carrier goes, AGAIN - this is a cyclical occurance, as carriers rotate in and out on a semi-regular basis!

 

[bismitch]

Easyt65 your the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.

North Korea is not a threat to U.S. soil, or oil and a carrier group in that area would not make that much of a difference considering how many air bases we have in Japan and Taiwan. The Japanese themselves have a decent airforce. I'm not sure if South Korea has missiles that could intercept a short range nuke,or if North Korea would even use a missile(might just sneak it into the country).

 

[easyt65]

Easyt65 your the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.

North Korea is not a threat to U.S. soil, or oil and a carrier group in that area would not make that much of a difference considering how many air bases we have in Japan and Taiwan. The Japanese themselves have a decent airforce. I'm not sure if South Korea has missiles that could intercept a short range nuke,or if North Korea would even use a missile(might just sneak it into the country).

I don't know what I am talking about?
-- How long have YOU been in the military, Bi?

North Korea is obviously a LOT further along with its nuclear program than Iran.

North korea is not a threat to the U.S.?
- Currently , the United states has approximately 37,000 American troops in south Korea (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3782213.stm). These troops would be very much in danger if kim Jong Il actually could produce a nuclear missile and was insane enough to fire such a missile into South Korea. Yes, which I agree this would be virtual suicide, but we aren't talking about a dictator playing with a full deck, are we?

While there are bases in Japan and Taiwan, there isn't a whole lot they could do if North Korea launched a nuke towards South Korea. although we should get some prior warning about missile prep, unless there are already planes in the air from Japan or Taiwan, there isn't much they could do. Even if they WERE airborn, they wouldn't be able to do much. A missile launch would probably be detected in S. Korea, but intercepting such a missile would be extremely difficult!

Also, considering the constant infiltration operations N. Korea conducts on a regular basis into S. Korea (which is not hardly reported at all anymore but which do occur - infiltrations which could be interpredted as invasions/raids in this on-going war) and the fact that the korean war is still on-going/has never ended (remember we are only in a Cease Fire/Armistice), it could be eaily said that North Korea poses a much greater threat - as a on-on-one confrontation - to the U.s. than Iran does at this moment!

Since NK has 'proven' it has nuclear capability and has boasted they have a delivery system NOW, we have to consider them a bigger threat to us/our allies than Iran, who is some time off from acquiring their own nukes. I am in no way diminishing iran's threat through their in-direct involvement/confrontation/participation in Iraq (troops, IED manufactoring/delivery/placement/etc), in Afghanistan, in Lebanon, and with Hezbollah, but they are more than happy to continue that in-direct confrontation for now. They have no desire to take us on 1-on-1 and frankly have no need to.

You said I have no idea what I am talking about simply because I pointed out that carriers rotate in and out of that region all the time?! I can understand how pointing out that fact proves i have no ifdea what I am talking about! :roll: while re-rolling a carrier into that are of operations (AOR) is standard, it would also be understandable for the U.S. to move a carrier over near north Korea as a show of force, which we do quite frequently as well. while moviong a carrier into the area may not affect Iran, such a show of force would mean a lot more to North korea, especially when every nation on your borders is 'abandoning' you and talking about sanctions - even China!

I just do not understand what your beef is by my pointing out that a carrier in that area in NO way means we are getting ready for some new war. as i said, which is also a fact and has been proven, it would take months of build up, more troops/supplies/missile defense assets/planes (especially 'specialty' planes), etc to prepare for an attack on Iran. Anyone in the military or who has ever served in the military on this board can tell you that.

No, I know exactly what I am talking about, Bi!

 

[bismitch]

Alright I read up on this stuff. The U.S. has several Patriot Missile Batteries in South Korea to deal with missiles and more are being sent to Japan. So I think if there was an nuclear attack on South Korea, it would involve the device being transported to Seoul over the border unnoticed. Sorry I might be wrong about the carriers, but I don't think that North Korea is the biggest threat right now to the U.S. The biggest threat to the U.S. would be a short blockade of oil through the straits of Hormoz.

If the North Korean leader is such a threat to the U.S., why haven't we tried to asassinate him. Really who would care?

 

[easyt65]

The biggest threat to the U.S. would be a short blockade of oil through the straits of Hormoz.

If the North Korean leader is such a threat to the U.S., why haven't we tried to asassinate him. Really who would care?

A blockade of oil would be extremely problematic and uncomfortable for Americans, but I think a nuke launched/'smuggled' into S. Korea would be a lot more dangerous, at least in the immediate future. I do not, however, think this will happen. I am not all too sure/convinced yet that S. korea actually conducted a REAL test, though. Several test/detection planes have said there is no radioative trace that such an event occurred, but that IF it did happen it was an extremely small one. Another report said they believed that it was a large amount of conventional explosives. Russia on the other hand has said it did occur. I would not put it past Kim Jong Il to fake a nuclear test and then play a very dangerous game of trying to blackmail the U.N./his neighbors into getting whatever he wants, actually believeing it will work.

I also know that he is extremely paranoid, that he wants more than anything to secure his rule, and I believe that if he has nukes/or if he can convince the world that he has nukes, that he will make anyone 'think twice before attacking/trying to overthrow Him' like has been done to the Taliban and to Hussein. He is just crazy enough, IMO, to think that way and fake the idea he has nukes, if he doesn't really have them!

Oh, and we do not assassinate foreign leaders! This is against our (official) policy! Navy Seals had the crosshairs (reportedly) onthe back of Hussein's head during the liberation of Kuwait, but bush refused to give the order because we went in ONLY to liberate Kuwait, not to assassinate Hussein. (Which would have simplified things a whole lot more if we would have then! ) It is, however, an acceptible policy of Great Brittain (UK) if, and only if, it is done 'to preserve its sovereignty/for their nation's survival'!

 

[bismitch]

I'd like to see where you got the information about the Navy Seals being able to kill Hussein, because I really doubt that.

 

[easyt65]

You doubt we have Special Ops guys capable of taking out leaders/targets if we wanted? There are several sources for the story, several classified - several not. One of the guys wrote a book about their 'experience.

Before we ever went into Iraq, we had special Ops guys all over the ground. News a few months ago broke in the open media about how we have sniper teams that we send out for weeks at a time by themselves to track/target/take out terrorists/bad guys/top Al Qaeda. One of these guys was interviewed on Fox about a month ago.

IF we were in the business of assassinating leaders, we have the right 'tools' between the military and 'spooks' to be very good at it.

 

[Volker]

Then you either cannot be convinced or you simply refuse to be convinced.
Doesnt matter to me.

Yes, it must be my fault :roll:

 

[Goobieman]

Yes, it must be my fault :roll:

Yes, it is.

You get an idea in your head and you refuse to listen to anthing contrary to same. The issue has been explained to you and you simply refuse to listen.

Now, go wallow in your willful ignorance.

 

[Volker]

Yes, it is.

You get an idea in your head and you refuse to listen to anthing contrary to same. The issue has been explained to you and you simply refuse to listen.

Now, go wallow in your willful ignorance.

First I listen, then I think, then I come to a conclusion :mrgreen:

 

[Goobieman]

First I listen, then I think, then I come to a conclusion :mrgreen:

Something that's clearly not in evidence here.

 

[Goobieman]

So now, the USS Einsenhower is traveling to the Iran area..I pray it's going there just to support the Iraq mission, and not for an October surprise from Bush to start a war with Iran. Gulf of Tonkin sound familiar?

God save us from these war hungry imbecilic republicans!

Hmmm.

STILL nothing but silence from Caine.

Hmmm.

 

[Volker]

Something that's clearly not in evidence here.

Your debate technique even works without a subject

 

[Hoot]

I hope all of you are right, and I am wrong.

What will really be the deciding factor is when the USS Einsenhower arrives in the Arabian Sea. ( apprx... Oct 20th) Usually these carriers have 6 month tours of duty, so after the Einsenhower arrives, the USS Enterprise, which has been launching air strikes against Afghanistan and Iraq for 6 months, should be deployed out of the area for some R & R.

If the Enterprise is held over...then start worrying.

The rest of you can trust Bush not to do anything stupid, but he's already proven me wrong too many times to trust him.

Rove has already promised an October surprise before the elections, and a war with Iran would be just what the doctor ordered for beleagured republicans attempting to hold onto power through the November elections.

Again...I hope I'm wrong about all this.

 

[easyt65]

Rove has already promised an October surprise before the elections, and a war with Iran would be just what the doctor ordered for beleagured republicans attempting to hold onto power through the November elections.

I have heard so many democrats talk about how Rove has declared there will be an 'October surprise', yet when i challenge them to show me a quote/link to any such declaration they come up empty. Maybe YOU can provide that?! I would love to see it! When that plane hit the building yesterday, several people on this board were screaming like 'Chicken little', "This is it - rove's October surprise!" :roll:

As far as attacking Iran just to keep power - won't happen! Me, extremely supportinve of the military, our national defense, etc would be the 1st to demand a change of Presidents because there is no way we can take on Iran on top of everything else we are doing! During the last administration, the Senate/congress made the decision to cut the size of the military, which had been based on what it would take to fight a war on 2 fronts - dating back to WW2. What was/is required has been reduced, primarily to cut the ever-growing budgets of administrations from BOTH paties! IMO, it was a bad idea! Needless to say, we are now in no shape to take on such a massive operation at this time. No matter what you think of Bush or how much you hate him, there is no way he would jeopardize this entire nation just to retain power. No matter what, by law - he is gone! He can and will be replaced as president during a time of war because we are at war now and will be when the 2008 elections happen! Just as we were at war in 2004 when he was re-elected, we will have a new President in the midst of war in 2008.

 

[Hoot]

As far as attacking Iran just to keep power - won't happen! Me, extremely supportinve of the military, our national defense, etc would be the 1st to demand a change of Presidents because there is no way we can take on Iran on top of everything else we are doing!

I hope these words don't come back to haunt you?