War on drugs a trillion-dollar failure

[grip]

I know a lot about the Opium Wars. We are not talking about history. We are talking about the failure of the current drug policies. You advocate wasting money on something that is CLEAR and UTTER failure.

You need read up on the Portugal drug model that they adopted over a decade ago. They decriminalized ALL drugs and have seen reduction in crime, and usage. They saw significant drops in lifetime heroin use among people ages 16-18, HIV infections dropped 17%. The facts are out that there are better ways to deal with drugs than prohibition. You realize that prohibition essentially funds the drug cartels, right? They black market what our government prohibits. Essentially, we are giving money to those cartels. Not only that, but we're spending billions upon billions of dollars on something WE WILL NEVER fix.

Don't sit there and tell me what I am knowledgeable about. I've spent a lot of time researching and analyzing the drug war. I know what I'm talking about. There is a mountain of evidence to show that our policy is a waste of money. Money that we could be making is flushed down the toilet in this useless prohibition.





Like I said...if they infringe on others...that is a different issue. It has nothing to do with what I want to do. You misinterpret the meaning of my argument. I'm not saying these things because I take the drugs. I am 100% sober. I don't do drugs. I have experimented in the past like most kids in college did, but those days are behind me. My argument is based solely on fiscal responsibility. Why the hell are we wasting money on something we can never fix? Why fight a war we can never win?

We need to rethink policy, and change the mindset of drugs. That isn't to say we should advocate usage. NO! Not at all. However, we shouldn't pretend that addicts are criminals. They are not criminals. I see addiction as a medical issue. They are sick and need medical attention...not be stuffed in a prison wasting our tax money.

Sure we're talking about history it teaches what has happened from past experience, including your own. And your experimentation of drugs is nothing comparable to severe daily addiction.

If you're talking about a highly regulated form of legalized drug use better than say "needle park", then it would cost an astronomical amount of money. Addicts are not usually functional enough after a few years to earn income and pay for treatment of this type. You'll have a decrease in crime but I still think there will be a huge increase of addicts, health costs and living provisions. You can't disable these people with legal narcotics and not financially provide for them, nor can you allow them into responsible work environments, where sobriety is not only a job requirement but a necessity.

Yes, I agree most addicts are self medicating because of other problems and need help. They don't have the coping skills to deal with the stresses of everyday life challenges. But you can't force an addict into treatment and it unfortunately takes a lot for them to seek it for themselves. I would highly support free programs to treat them, where they are rehabilitated by weening them off their DOC and taught sober living. Usually the free ones, if even available throw you in a detox room to go through hell before they out patient you into a 12 step. This does not encourage many addicts to seek help.

Hey, you want to take some of the most physically and mentally addictive substances on this planet and make them cheap and available to everyone, have at it. Maybe your theory will work out though as I've said it historically has not been a winner. If you thought cigarettes and overeating were problems you ain't seen nothing yet.

 

[Northern Light]

I completely disagree. Though the pharmaceutical industry definitely pushes more unnecessary medications than ever for sheer profit, much of modern civilizations growth and success is do to the longer and healthier lives provided by prescription drugs. Before antibiotics, heart and cancer treatments and surgery many more suffered and died.

I'm not talking about antibiotics, cancer treatment, or surgery. I am talking about every day prescription drugs that people are taking, especially pain killers which by the way are extremely addictive. Heroin may be illegal but a lot of people are addicted to oxycodone.

And the hallucinogens you advocate as safe and beneficial are a class of the most useless and harmful drugs known to human kind.

Not true. Do yourself a favor and do a pubMED search on MDMA and see what it's being used for. LSD is an ergot derivative and is one of the only surefire cures for migraines, as well as being a psychotherapeutic tool because of its ability to induce novelty in problem solving. DMT has been demonstrated to cure depression. Ibogaine contained in iboga cures addiction and is already being used in clinical trials to cure heroin addiction.

I wouldn't give that crap to my worst enemy.

You can choose to remain ignorant all you want but your statements are flat out wrong.

If drugs were decriminalized you'd have half the working population trying to perform their jobs stoned and stupid. I think that's a completely irresponsible and idiotic concept.

Portugal and Spain prove you wrong.

 

[grip]

I'm not talking about antibiotics, cancer treatment, or surgery. I am talking about every day prescription drugs that people are taking, especially pain killers which by the way are extremely addictive. Heroin may be illegal but a lot of people are addicted to oxycodone.

So, what's your point? That's not exactly rocket science information.

Not true. Do yourself a favor and do a pubMED search on MDMA and see what it's being used for. LSD is an ergot derivative and is one of the only surefire cures for migraines, as well as being a psychotherapeutic tool because of its ability to induce novelty in problem solving. DMT has been demonstrated to cure depression. Ibogaine contained in iboga cures addiction and is already being used in clinical trials to cure heroin addiction.

Do yourself a favor and don't assume I don't already know this and find it irrelevant. LSD in a therapeutic dose might help a migraine but how much experience do you have with tripping? I always hear people tell me how wonderful LSD is but funny thing is they don't do it anymore. Ibogaine is a big fantasy for opioid cure. And you can repeat this stuff you've read from the internet all you want because we know that makes its true.

I knew a guy who read all about fishing and was going to show me all about it. I spent all day catching fish because I've done it for 20 years and he spent all day playing with his tackle.

You can choose to remain ignorant all you want but your statements are flat out wrong.

I'm for any chemical used safely in a medicinal fashion (marinol) but that's not what you're advocating. You want to allow legal, cheap and abundant access to potent uncontrolled substances with the user adjusting the amounts of narcotics desired. I know the ignorance of inexperienced people and the power of hardcore drugs and trust me the two don't mix.

Portugal and Spain prove you wrong.

I bet everyone who supports this concept with their mouths would be the first to sheepishly hide their faces in shame, when it turns out to be a big monumental failure. Like I've said repeatedly, push for it let it happen, then live with it.

 

[Northern Light]

So, what's your point? That's not exactly rocket science information.

Then why don't you know it?

Do yourself a favor and don't assume I don't already know this and find it irrelevant. LSD in a therapeutic dose might help a migraine but how much experience do you have with tripping? I always hear people tell me how wonderful LSD is but funny thing is they don't do it anymore. Ibogaine is a big fantasy for opioid cure. And you can repeat this stuff you've read from the internet all you want because we know that makes its true.

No, I read peer reviewed articles about the research into these chemicals, courtesy of pubMED. Obviously you don't already know because if you did then you wouldn't be saying half of what you are.

I knew a guy who read all about fishing and was going to show me all about it. I spent all day catching fish because I've done it for 20 years and he spent all day playing with his tackle.

Did that guy also run a website that distributes peer reviewed scientific findings?

I'm for any chemical used safely in a medicinal fashion (marinol) but that's not what you're advocating.

Recognize the oxymoron of what you just said. You're for any chemical when used safely. Psychedelics have been used safely in many experiments. There are entire books written on this research by the inventors of these chemicals, such as Alexander Shulgin and Albert Hoffman. It's peer reviewed science via laboratory experimentation.

You want to allow legal, cheap and abundant access to potent uncontrolled substances with the user adjusting the amounts of narcotics desired.

Please quote where I said this?

I am in favor of decriminalization, not legalization. People should not be able to possess unlimited amounts of a substance, but I think our prison system and DEA policy need serious reforms to prevent victimless crimes from being so severely punished. The only way that can happen is by changing the scheduling of most drugs. The scheduling system as it stands does not make sense. In the U.S., cannabis shares the same schedule as cocaine. Absurd. We need policy making that knows how to deal with this in proportion.

I know the ignorance of inexperienced people and the power of hardcore drugs and trust me the two don't mix.

I agree... which is why education can change the way society relates to substances. The best way to educate is to allow people to openly talk about their drug uses and experiences, and what to avoid. You can't have proper harm reduction without the freedom to express lessons and experiences learned, nor while having stiff reprisals in place for petty crimes. Simply telling people to "not do drugs" is not working - clearly.

I bet everyone who supports this concept with their mouths would be the first to sheepishly hide their faces in shame, when it turns out to be a big monumental failure. Like I've said repeatedly, push for it let it happen, then live with it.

The statistics coming out of Portugal and Spain consistently prove you wrong. Drug use is down and harm reduction is up. Seriously... do more reading!

 

[grip]

Then why don't you know it?

Bet I know more than you.

No, I read peer reviewed articles about the research into these chemicals, courtesy of pubMED. Obviously you don't already know because if you did then you wouldn't be saying half of what you are.

You're obviously not listening to anything I'm saying. Tell me where are all these cures being used? I tell you where, they're NOT...lol

Did that guy also run a website that distributes peer reviewed scientific findings?

NO, he's only got about 12 yrs of college. A whole lot of book smarts and not any sense, know what I mean?

Recognize the oxymoron of what you just said. You're for any chemical when used safely. Psychedelics have been used safely in many experiments. There are entire books written on this research by the inventors of these chemicals, such as Alexander Shulgin and Albert Hoffman. It's peer reviewed science via laboratory experimentation.

Your vapant and snide replies are as empty as your claims. Again where are all these medical breakthroughs using psychedelics. Oh, that's right THERE AREN'T ANY. You can continue to try and twist things into some coherent reasoning to legalize dangerous drugs but it doesn't wash. I mean bath salts were legal and that was a good thing, right? Eating peoples faces is victimless.

Please quote where I said this?

I am in favor of decriminalization, not legalization. People should not be able to possess unlimited amounts of a substance, but I think our prison system and DEA policy need serious reforms to prevent victimless crimes from being so severely punished. The only way that can happen is by changing the scheduling of most drugs. The scheduling system as it stands does not make sense. In the U.S., cannabis shares the same schedule as cocaine. Absurd. We need policy making that knows how to deal with this in proportion.

You imply it. :bs

I'm pretty sure to decriminalize something is to make it legal. And I'm not against making marijuana legal for adult usage.

I agree... which is why education can change the way society relates to substances. The best way to educate is to allow people to openly talk about their drug uses and experiences, and what to avoid. You can't have proper harm reduction without the freedom to express lessons and experiences learned, nor while having stiff reprisals in place for petty crimes. Simply telling people to "not do drugs" is not working - clearly.

I got an idea lets get rid of all the hardcore drugs, so people don't have to be educated and learn about how bad they are?

The statistics coming out of Portugal and Spain consistently prove you wrong. Drug use is down and harm reduction is up. Seriously... do more reading!

The drug policy of Portugal was put in place in 2000, and was legally effective from July 2001. There is little reliable information about drug use, injecting behavior or addiction treatment in Portugal before 2001, when general population surveys commenced.

So much for your statistics. You should've read a little further.

 

[Thoreau72]

If you think the younger and inexperienced who don't have much exposure to drug use would fare well and use mature judgment, then by all means push for the legalization of hard narcotics. I have no problem decriminalizing marijuana and milder substances but I think you and many others would be mortified the first time your own 18 yr child tells you I've been using opioid's, meth or crack (possibly all 3) for the past 3 months and have a physical and psychological addiction.

As a matter of fact I'd like to see everyone who wants to legalize drugs go to a few treatment centers and talk to the destroyed lives. You have no idea what you're asking, until you've either been through it or lived with loved ones who have. And if you have and still want legalization of all drugs, then you didn't learn much.

That is an appeal to emotion, not reason.

The truth is that under legal sales of alcohol, the government does a much better job of controlling sales to youngsters and availability to youngsters, than it does in controlling the illegal drug availability to youngsters. Good heavens, hardly a day goes by that some kid somewhere is caught bringing illegal drugs to school.

 

[grip]

That is an appeal to emotion, not reason.

The truth is that under legal sales of alcohol, the government does a much better job of controlling sales to youngsters and availability to youngsters, than it does in controlling the illegal drug availability to youngsters. Good heavens, hardly a day goes by that some kid somewhere is caught bringing illegal drugs to school.

There is no competent reason without emotion.

We got all the booze we wanted as teenagers, mostly because it being legal there was availability and access. We didn't have near as easy a time in finding drugs, so I don't believe you.

 

[Thoreau72]

There is no competent reason without emotion.

We got all the booze we wanted as teenagers, mostly because it being legal there was availability and access. We didn't have near as easy a time in finding drugs, so I don't believe you.

I had to show ID to buy alcohol when I was underage. People checked.

Did I have a fake ID? Yes I did, for some period of time, can't remember exactly.

Today in my county, the cops make periodic 'stings', sending in youngsters to buy alcohol. Offenders are caught. It makes it tough.

Utopia is NEVER an option. Never. Go for minimal harm, when designing public policy.

 

[grip]

I had to show ID to buy alcohol when I was underage. People checked.

Did I have a fake ID? Yes I did, for some period of time, can't remember exactly.

Today in my county, the cops make periodic 'stings', sending in youngsters to buy alcohol. Offenders are caught. It makes it tough.

Utopia is NEVER an option. Never. Go for minimal harm, when designing public policy.

We didn't need fake ID's because there were plenty of young adults willing to buy us liquor for an extra $10 bill.
The cops were hell on drug use though and would constantly patrol in the squad cars anywhere we tried to buy or smoke weed.

At least you make sense about there being no utopia. Making hard stuff legal and highly regulated for people already hooked may have some sort of success. But a public policy that basically says to younger inexperienced people, possibly troubled that you can try to hide from reality in gaga land is not a great solution. Young adults are going to experiment no matter what but it shouldn't be legal or easy.

I'm not against any sensible solutions to the drug problem and I'm not particularly a fan of the US drug policies. They often do what's politically expedient, easy and go after more harmless substances (cannabis) than meth, heroin or cocaine. I find it ironic where they've almost made cigarettes and bad food illegal and yet they want to legalize much more lethal substances.

 

[Thoreau72]

We didn't need fake ID's because there were plenty of young adults willing to buy us liquor for an extra $10 bill.
The cops were hell on drug use though and would constantly patrol in the squad cars anywhere we tried to buy or smoke weed.

At least you make sense about there being no utopia. Making hard stuff legal and highly regulated for people already hooked may have some sort of success. But a public policy that basically says to younger inexperienced people, possibly troubled that you can try to hide from reality in gaga land is not a great solution. Young adults are going to experiment no matter what but it shouldn't be legal or easy.

I'm not against any sensible solutions to the drug problem and I'm not particularly a fan of the US drug policies. They often do what's politically expedient, easy and go after more harmless substances (cannabis) than meth, heroin or cocaine. I find it ironic where they've almost made cigarettes and bad food illegal and yet they want to legalize much more lethal substances.

If you are not a fan of US drug policy, then why do you defend it?

 

[grip]

If you are not a fan of US drug policy, then why do you defend it?

Because it's still better than "no policy". There are realistically as you say, "no utopia" type scenarios. I do believe there are many changes needed for our current policies, especially towards helping established addicts and spending way less fighting marijuana but the gov is slow and stubborn to change.

I know the negotiating style of today is if you want a little (like pot) they ask for a lot. The problem becomes when they lose sight of the original goal and literally become deceived in believing in asking for it all. Not a good idea IMO for anyone.

 

[Thoreau72]

Because it's still better than "no policy". There are realistically as you say, "no utopia" type scenarios. I do believe there are many changes needed for our current policies, especially towards helping established addicts and spending way less fighting marijuana but the gov is slow and stubborn to change.

I know the negotiating style of today is if you want a little (like pot) they ask for a lot. The problem becomes when they lose sight of the original goal and literally become deceived in believing in asking for it all. Not a good idea IMO for anyone.

There is a reason it is stubborn to change.

 

[digsbe]

Just impose extremely heavy fines on drug users.

 

[JC Callender]

It seems easy to simply want to make drugs legal and make the punishment for illegal acts committed on them harsh, but there have been cases of people committing bizarre murders and other horrid acts on spice and bath salts. People do horrible things on crack as well. With that said, I'd still probably want to see all drugs legalized but it's not an easy decision.

 

[Thoreau72]

It seems easy to simply want to make drugs legal and make the punishment for illegal acts committed on them harsh, but there have been cases of people committing bizarre murders and other horrid acts on spice and bath salts. People do horrible things on crack as well. With that said, I'd still probably want to see all drugs legalized but it's not an easy decision.

Don't worry, it's not your decision to make. Have no fear, the government will maintain the status quo--it needs it.