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[W:926]The central evolution problem

Re: The central evolution problem

I didn't say this showed a problem with evolution. We are currently on a side topic about neuroscience and consciousness, not evolution. You don't make the slightest effort to keep track of what we are talking about.

Well, why have you brought up this drivel if it is nothing to do with evolution then??????

For pitty's sake woman, try not to be so pathetic at holding a discussion together!
 
Re: The central evolution problem

I didn't say this showed a problem with evolution. We are currently on a side topic about neuroscience and consciousness, not evolution. You don't make the slightest effort to keep track of what we are talking about.


148 pages and you still have yet to explain yourself.


What is the "central problem" with Evolution - a process you admit happens and is happening.


Some scientist called Shapiro is saying that every cell has a decision making process.

You say that the universe itself has an intelligence but you don't know where it is.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

148 pages and you still have yet to explain yourself.


What is the "central problem" with Evolution - a process you admit happens and is happening.


Some scientist called Shapiro is saying that every cell has a decision making process.

You say that the universe itself has an intelligence but you don't know where it is.

The bit I read only talked about possible use of quantum decisions in neurons. That is to say that there possibly is some sort of quantum computing going on within the brain cell. Or between the brain cells.

Could be, we don't know that this is impossible. Can't see how it changes evolution though.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

There is no evidence that increasing intelligence was caused by the struggle for survival and natural selection. There are some whales, for example, that are highly intelligent but have hardly any predators, and do not hunt. And gorillas are another example of an intelligent animal that, before humans, didn't have to worry much about predators, and does not hunt large animals.

It takes a real stretch of the imagination to think natural selection explains everything.


I just gave you evidence.

Chimpanzees are known to use common objects as weapons. How can this NOT aid them in survival ???


The more intelligent an animal is, the more able it is to understand - especially the speech noises and gestures made by others.


Intelligence is what made mankind superior to all other animals. It is more important that speed, strength or size.



It is beyond belief that you can refuse to understand how intelligence is beneficial to the survival and spread of a species.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

The bit I read only talked about possible use of quantum decisions in neurons. That is to say that there possibly is some sort of quantum computing going on within the brain cell. Or between the brain cells.

Could be, we don't know that this is impossible. Can't see how it changes evolution though.


A bit like asking the time and being told how the clock works instead.


Good4Nothin is certainly not good at making a point.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

A bit like asking the time and being told how the clock works instead.


Good4Nothin is certainly not good at making a point.

More Waht is the time?

Answer the clock is a sparrow.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

Well, why have you brought up this drivel if it is nothing to do with evolution then??????

For pitty's sake woman, try not to be so pathetic at holding a discussion together!

One of you started talking about the mind and the brain, and said the brain creates the mind. I said there are alternate theories, involving quantum consciousness and I showed evidence.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

It is about how the very well and obvious working theory of evolution is supposed to have a problem in it in that you want there to be a guiding hand of intelligence otherwise known as God.

It is plain and always has been.

Not that you really thought otherwise. Just more lying. Who exactly do you think you are kidding?

We never said anything like that. I have shown obvious problems with the version of evolution theory you have faith in.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

148 pages and you still have yet to explain yourself.


What is the "central problem" with Evolution - a process you admit happens and is happening.


Some scientist called Shapiro is saying that every cell has a decision making process.

You say that the universe itself has an intelligence but you don't know where it is.

I have repeated the ideas in my original post probably about a hundred time by now.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

The bit I read only talked about possible use of quantum decisions in neurons. That is to say that there possibly is some sort of quantum computing going on within the brain cell. Or between the brain cells.

Could be, we don't know that this is impossible. Can't see how it changes evolution though.

You only read a bit. That shows how much curiosity you have.

Quantum consciousness is an alternative to your materialist version of how the brain works.

Angel and I are trying to show you that materialism is not obviously true, and is not scientific.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

I just gave you evidence.

Chimpanzees are known to use common objects as weapons. How can this NOT aid them in survival ???


The more intelligent an animal is, the more able it is to understand - especially the speech noises and gestures made by others.


Intelligence is what made mankind superior to all other animals. It is more important that speed, strength or size.



It is beyond belief that you can refuse to understand how intelligence is beneficial to the survival and spread of a species.

I gave lots of examples of intelligence that does not help survival, which you have ignored.

Long before mankind began killing off other species, our intelligence had evolved. The intellectual and creative abilities of our species had evolved long before the development of advanced technology and weapons made us "superior."

I gave examples of other intelligent animals whose lives are not very challenging, and do not require any complex problem solving. Their intelligence evolved just because that's what the universe does. It generates intelligence.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

Materialists can no longer say the idea of quantum consciousness is pseudoscientific woo. It is more scientific than materialism, because there is evidence for it.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

I have repeated the ideas in my original post probably about a hundred time by now.

Yes and have STILL to explain yourself properly.


If it's just that there are things we have yet to learn about evolution - then great. That's just fine.

But that's not a "problem"


What is the "problem" ???
 
Re: The central evolution problem

Materialists can no longer say the idea of quantum consciousness is pseudoscientific woo. It is more scientific than materialism, because there is evidence for it.

Whether or not quantum effects influence thought is a valid topic for scientific investigation, but simply stating "quantum effects cause consciousness" explains nothing unless scientists can come up with some suggestion about how quantum effects could possibly cause consciousness. The argument goes:

I don't understand consciousness.
I don't understand quantum physics.
Therefore, consciousness must be a function of quantum physics!
It's god of the gaps with "quantum" as the all-purpose gap filler.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_consciousness

A new myth is burrowing its way into modern thinking. The notion is spreading that the principles embodied in quantum mechanics imply a central role for the human mind in determining the very nature of the universe. Not surprisingly, this idea can be found in New Age periodicals and in many books on the metaphysical shelves of book stores. But it also can appear where you least expect it, even on the pages of that bastion of rational thinking, The Humanist.

The myth of quantum consciousness sits well with many whose egos have made it impossible for them to accept the insignificant place science perceives for humanity, as modern instruments probe the farthest reaches of space and time. It was bad enough when Copernicus said that we were not at the center of the universe. It was worse when Darwin announced that we were not angels. But it became intolerable when astronomers declared that the earth is but one of a hundred billion trillion other planets, and when geologists demonstrated that recorded history is but a blink of time -- a microsecond of the second of earth's existence.

In a land where self-gratification has reached heights never dreamed of in ancient Rome, where self-esteem is more important than being able to read, and where self-help requires no more effort than putting on a cassette, the myth of quantum consciousness is just what the shrink ordered.
https://www.metabunk.org/the-myth-of-quantum-consciousness.t2937/

This sort of "quantum physics explains consciousness" stuff has a long history, and most of it is gibberish. In particular, there tends to be a good deal of circularity in most arguments invoking von Neumann. The "testable predictions" line is new, though, so I decided to download the paper and take a look.
https://scienceblogs.com/principles/2007/10/26/quantum-consciousness-and-the


even with the conservative value of a time uncertainty of 10 milliseconds, Heisenberg’s equation gives an energy uncertainty of approximately 5.2 x 10^-30 J, which is about 200,000 times too small to disrupt even a single Van der Waals interaction, the weakest kind of chemical bond.

In other words, even if the soul were only aiming to influence a calcium channel for 10 milliseconds, the bare minimum it would need to, it wouldn’t have nearly enough quantum ‘wiggle room’ to make a difference (the longer the time, the less room.)

Some have argued that even tiny quantum nudges could nonetheless control brain activity, because of the butterfly effect: a small change might lead, indirectly, to a big one, in the complex system of the brain.

However, Clarke squashes this idea too. He says that the brain is actually very good at not being influenced by tiny changes. It has to be, because thermal noise – the random movement of atoms, due to temperature – is constantly throwing up tiny changes, and this noise would drown out any plausible Heisenberg-based effects:


Quantum Theory Won't Save The Soul - Neuroskeptic
 
Re: The central evolution problem

Yes and have STILL to explain yourself properly.


If it's just that there are things we have yet to learn about evolution - then great. That's just fine.

But that's not a "problem"


What is the "problem" ???

It is a problem, because we know that the neo-Darwinist theory is wrong. Promoters of that theory insist that all genetic mutations are accidental. That is not true, and it is known to be not true, and there is plenty of evidence that it is not true.
 
The attempt to link the weirdness of the quantum world to mysteries of the macro world (such as consciousness) is not new. The best candidate to connect the two comes from University of Oxford physicist Roger Penrose and physician Stuart Hameroff of the Arizona Health Sciences Center, whose theory of quantum consciousness has generated much heat but little light. Inside our neurons are tiny hollow microtubules that act like structural scaffolding. Their conjecture (and that's all it is) is that something inside the microtubules may initiate a wave-function collapse that results in the quantum coherence of atoms. The quantum coherence causes neurotransmitters to be released into the synapses between neurons, thus triggering them to fire in a uniform pattern that creates thought and consciousness. Because a wave-function collapse can come about only when an atom is "observed" (that is, affected in any way by something else), the late neuroscientist Sir John Eccles, another proponent of the idea, even suggested that "mind" may be the observer in a recursive loop from atoms to molecules to neurons to thought to consciousness to mind to atoms…



In reality, the gap between subatomic quantum effects and large-scale macro systems is too large to bridge. In his book The Unconscious Quantum (Prometheus Books, 1995), University of Colorado physicist Victor Stenger demonstrates that for a system to be described quantum-mechanically, its typical mass (m), speed (v) and distance (d) must be on the order of Planck's constant (h). "If mvd is much greater than h, then the system probably can be treated classically." Stenger computes that the mass of neural transmitter molecules and their speed across the distance of the synapse are about two orders of magnitude too large for quantum effects to be influential. There is no micro-macro connection. Then what the #$*! is going on here?
https://www.quantumconsciousness.org/content/hackeryquackery-scientific-american
 
Re: The central evolution problem

I gave lots of examples of intelligence that does not help survival, which you have ignored...


I must have missed it on a 150 page thread.

Where is evidence that intelligence does not help survival ?

Of course if a giant asteroid hit the Earth, then yes billions might die regardless of intelligence.


...long before mankind began killing off other species, our intelligence had evolved. The intellectual and creative abilities of our species had evolved long before the development of advanced technology and weapons made us "superior."...

How long before ?

When was this intelligence developed?
What is your date for the first human to fashion a weapon ?
To figure out that living in a cave is better than living in the open ?
To figure out that animal skins kept him warm ?

Bear in mind, humans have only been around for less than 200,000 years.


...I gave examples of other intelligent animals whose lives are not very challenging, and do not require any complex problem solving. Their intelligence evolved just because that's what the universe does. It generates intelligence...

What post # ?


You say dolphins have intelligence that they don't need. How do you know that ?
Dolphins are social creatures and protect each other for example...they recognize distress signals in other dolphins.
Dolphins can and will attack a shark as a "pack" for instance.

How is that not intelligence aiding survival ?
 
Here’s the problem in the logic: for one, Newton’s theory of the continuous field was debunked some time ago. For another, calling on the randomness allowed by quantum mechanics in order to rage against determinism doesn’t work. Quantum behavior is only relevant at the atomic level. At the level of larger structures like the microtubules in neurons, the environment is not sustainable and the theory falls apart to a more classical explanation. However, quantum activity at the neuronal level is exactly the proposition of the Orch-OR theory, which is probably the most scientifically valid theory on this stuff to date; and that’s not saying a whole lot. Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff, the men behind Orch-OR, published a paper that’s more optimistic philosophical musings than facts, and it has yet to be corroborated. Hameroff’s involvement in the cult film “What the [Bleep] Do We Know?” and his bosom-buddy status with Deepak Chopra don’t help his credibility either.
PSA: There's No Such Thing as "Quantum Consciousness"
 
Re: The central evolution problem

Materialists used to insist that quantum physics as not relevance to living things, or to our macro level reality. Some of them still are insisting that. Even though plant photosynthesis was found to use quantum effects, and then they were found in bird navigation.

So the materialists were proven wrong. That doesn't stop them though. There are lots of materialists in AI research and they still won't accept the idea that quantum computing goes on inside neurons. They want the brain to be nothing but neural networks. Oh too bad for them.
 
The attempt to link the weirdness of the quantum world to mysteries of the macro world (such as consciousness) is not new. The best candidate to connect the two comes from University of Oxford physicist Roger Penrose and physician Stuart Hameroff of the Arizona Health Sciences Center, whose theory of quantum consciousness has generated much heat but little light. Inside our neurons are tiny hollow microtubules that act like structural scaffolding. Their conjecture (and that's all it is) is that something inside the microtubules may initiate a wave-function collapse that results in the quantum coherence of atoms. The quantum coherence causes neurotransmitters to be released into the synapses between neurons, thus triggering them to fire in a uniform pattern that creates thought and consciousness. Because a wave-function collapse can come about only when an atom is "observed" (that is, affected in any way by something else), the late neuroscientist Sir John Eccles, another proponent of the idea, even suggested that "mind" may be the observer in a recursive loop from atoms to molecules to neurons to thought to consciousness to mind to atoms…



In reality, the gap between subatomic quantum effects and large-scale macro systems is too large to bridge. In his book The Unconscious Quantum (Prometheus Books, 1995), University of Colorado physicist Victor Stenger demonstrates that for a system to be described quantum-mechanically, its typical mass (m), speed (v) and distance (d) must be on the order of Planck's constant (h). "If mvd is much greater than h, then the system probably can be treated classically." Stenger computes that the mass of neural transmitter molecules and their speed across the distance of the synapse are about two orders of magnitude too large for quantum effects to be influential. There is no micro-macro connection. Then what the #$*! is going on here?
https://www.quantumconsciousness.org/content/hackeryquackery-scientific-american

Completely ignoring recent research and confirming evidence.
 
Re: The central evolution problem

Materialists used to insist that quantum physics as not relevance to living things, or to our macro level reality. Some of them still are insisting that. Even though plant photosynthesis was found to use quantum effects, and then they were found in bird navigation.

So the materialists were proven wrong. That doesn't stop them though. There are lots of materialists in AI research and they still won't accept the idea that quantum computing goes on inside neurons. They want the brain to be nothing but neural networks. Oh too bad for them.

Read my links. No quantum computing in neurons. Too bad for you.
 
Here’s the problem in the logic: for one, Newton’s theory of the continuous field was debunked some time ago. For another, calling on the randomness allowed by quantum mechanics in order to rage against determinism doesn’t work. Quantum behavior is only relevant at the atomic level. At the level of larger structures like the microtubules in neurons, the environment is not sustainable and the theory falls apart to a more classical explanation. However, quantum activity at the neuronal level is exactly the proposition of the Orch-OR theory, which is probably the most scientifically valid theory on this stuff to date; and that’s not saying a whole lot. Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff, the men behind Orch-OR, published a paper that’s more optimistic philosophical musings than facts, and it has yet to be corroborated. Hameroff’s involvement in the cult film “What the [Bleep] Do We Know?” and his bosom-buddy status with Deepak Chopra don’t help his credibility either.
PSA: There's No Such Thing as "Quantum Consciousness"

So you found an article by someone who is ignorant of the evidence, and in denial.
 
So you found an article by someone who is ignorant of the evidence, and in denial.

There are many such articles by people who know what they are talking about. Please go into detail about your critique of the articles I posted. Or are you just going to blindly deny? Take your time, read the articles and get back to us. You could comment on this now. "Stenger computes that the mass of neural transmitter molecules and their speed across the distance of the synapse are about two orders of magnitude too large for quantum effects to be influential"

Any thoughts? Where did you study quantum physics?
 
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