[W:718] The west must hold its nerve on Ukraine

[Fledermaus]

Your link:

"From 2015 to early this year, American Special Forces and National Guard instructors trained more than 27,000 Ukrainian soldiers at the Yavoriv Combat Training Center in western Ukraine near the city of Lviv, Pentagon officials said.

"Military advisers from about a dozen allied countries also trained thousands of Ukrainian military personnel in Ukraine over the past several years."

Fighting for regime change in Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood.
Again.

Training ain't fighting.

 

[Evilroddy]

Your link:

"From 2015 to early this year, American Special Forces and National Guard instructors trained more than 27,000 Ukrainian soldiers at the Yavoriv Combat Training Center in western Ukraine near the city of Lviv, Pentagon officials said.

"Military advisers from about a dozen allied countries also trained thousands of Ukrainian military personnel in Ukraine over the past several years."

Fighting for regime change in Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood.
Again.

georgepillip:

It's a good thing the Western special forces and regular troops did. This time the Ukrainians are exacting a far harsher toll on the Russian Federation invaders. Hopefully a lot more Russian Federation troops will perish than Ukrainian forces and civilians as a result of this illegal war of choice, launched by the arrogant and foolish President Putin for land and better control of the near abroad. I will be very happy the day I read that Putin suffered a fate similar to Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. Unlike Gaddafi, Putin richly deserves such a gruesome fate.

Be well and stay alive.
Evilroddy.

 

[Tangmo]

Nobody mentioned " kenetic warfare". You claimed there were no NATO forces on the ground in Ukraine, that is clearly a falsehood. So please desist from deploying strawmen

Read the article

It says that the western operatives there have been providing real time intelligence to the Ukrainian forces via laptops they gave to them which they have been using to locate , attack and kill Russian soldiers.

As to the bolded let me get out my Stamp...


APPROVED!

 

[Tangmo]

There are NATO troops in Ukraine and at least in the case of Canadian SFOs they have been moving in and out of Ukraine since the beginning of this year (January).
The claim is further complicated by the practice of the USA seconding active and retired US military personnel under CIA leadership. These "Red Teams" as they are sometimes called are commonly used for covert activities by the US Government because they are more easily deniable. They can be used for both non-kinetic and kinetic operations.

I am glad that these NATO special operators are at work in Ukraine doing whatever they are doing. However I am not willing to lie about it, so I decided to post what I know with citations to back it up. If a war is just then truth need not be the first casualty of war. That's my opinion, anyway.

Be well and stay alive.
Evilroddy.

Putin's not really trying to capture NATO enablers operating inside Ukraine is he.

He'd likely have to declare them to be mercenaries despite the GC.

That means Putin would be digging his already deep hole ever more toward the Earth's core and he knows it. So deeply he'd pop out in China. Where they'd bury him back in again, for sure.

 

[oneworld2]

As to the bolded let me get out my Stamp...


APPROVED!

Well you can " approve" it but the question was not about the moral or legal aspect of their conduct, it was about whether they were there and actively playing a role in the killing. Those that stated otherwise, some of which will have been frugal with the truth about it imo, are evidently wrong about there not being any of them there. That was the point and theme of the exchange.

 

[Tangmo]

Well you can " approve" it but the question was not about the moral or legal aspect of their conduct, it was about whether they were there and actively playing a role in the killing. Those that stated otherwise, some of which will have been frugal with the truth about it imo, are evidently wrong about there not being any of them there. That was the point and theme of the exchange.

I didn't say anything about moral or legal, either way, although like everyone else I'm for morality and legality.

I didn't say NATO enabling forces in Ukraine were killing Russians or weren't killing Russians. Obviously, I did not try to deny NATO forces are in Ukraine supporting the Ukrainians defend their country.

What I did say was I approve of NATO forces in Ukraine enabling and assisting Ukraine forces "to locate , attack and kill Russian soldiers." Indeed, I'm all for it. Slay the barbarian Russian forces, yes.

 

[oneworld2]

I didn't say anything about moral or legal, either way, although like everyone else I'm for morality and legality.

I didn't say NATO enabling forces in Ukraine were killing Russians or weren't killing Russians. Obviously, I did not try to deny NATO forces are in Ukraine supporting the Ukrainians defend their country.

What I did say was I approve of NATO forces in Ukraine enabling and assisting Ukraine forces "to locate , attack and kill Russian soldiers." Indeed, I'm all for it. Slay the barbarian Russian forces, yes.

I understand that Tangmo, I was just reiterating what the particular theme of my post was about, the one you responded to.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Western advisors, trainers, and logisticians are probably operating in Ukraine. I would be terribly disappointed if they weren't any in-country.

They are force multipliers, but they are not kinetic boots on the ground.

 

[bomberfox]

No idea.
What's your delusion?

You should know even in the soviet era, Russia liked invading their neighbors for really not much reason at all. Perhaps because of Stalin’s jealousy of Trotsky. The molotov ribbentrop pact stayed the nazis long enough for the red army to focus on its neighbors.

Your delusion is pretending there are no parallels to this. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is pushing many countries to join NATO just like the soviets pushed Finland to join the axis.

 

[bomberfox]

I have already exlained . An internal transfer of territories within one internationally recognized state (USSR), doesnt entail any legal future consequences on breaking states. If republic breaks, It has right to retain only the lands it has initailly possessed. Ukraine never owned Crimea. No Ukraniane blood was shed to conquer this land. What you have posted is nothing more then a toilet paper now.

If a republic breaks it ceases to own anything.

 

[bomberfox]

There's nothing irrelevant about the Nazi's 3% showing in the 1928 election and Hitler's appointment in 1933 unless someone is innumerate and/or historically deceitful.

When they become larger than a paltry 2-3% representation, let us know. Shall we talk about the Russian sympathizers now? Shall we talk about Mr. Dugin?

 

[bomberfox]

Your link:

"From 2015 to early this year, American Special Forces and National Guard instructors trained more than 27,000 Ukrainian soldiers at the Yavoriv Combat Training Center in western Ukraine near the city of Lviv, Pentagon officials said.

"Military advisers from about a dozen allied countries also trained thousands of Ukrainian military personnel in Ukraine over the past several years."

Fighting for regime change in Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood.
Again.

The last are your interpretation.

 

[georgephillip]

Your link said nothing of the kind which is why you didn't quote it directly

My link is a direct quote which is why I encased it in quotation marks.
You didn't read its entire content:

"Right Sector led the January 19 attacks on police in Kyiv that even opposition leaders criticized, with one protester saying the far-right bloc had 'breathed new life into these protests...'"

"The far right, of course, cared nothing for democracy, nor did it have any love for the EU.

"Instead, the popular uprising was an opportunity.

"Dmytro Yarosh, the Right Sector leader, had urged his compatriots in 2009 to 'start an armed struggle against the regime of internal occupation and Moscow’s empire' if pro-Russian forces took control.

"As early as March 2013, Tryzub, one of the organizations that formed Right Sector, had called for the Ukrainian opposition to move 'from a peaceful demonstration to a street-revolutionary plane.'"

"Protesters throw Molotov cocktails at Ukrainian troops during the Maidan protests on January 19, 2014. (Mstyslav Chernov / Wikimedia Commons)"

 

[georgephillip]

Parubiy was coordinator of the volunteer security corps for the mainstream protesters.[20]

Your link:

"In 1991 he founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok;[11] the party combined radical nationalism and some neo-Nazi features (by its name and the 'Wolfsangel'-like sign).[7][12][13] In 1998–2004 Parubiy led the paramilitary organization of SNPU, the Patriot of Ukraine.[13] Parubiy left these organizations in 2004."

 

[georgephillip]

Odd then that Ukraine had a free and fair national election in May of 2014. No right-wing candidates won national office or a parliamentary seat.

Because right-wing candidates did their part by driving the duly elected president from office in February of 2014.

 

[georgephillip]

jacobin.com is not a valid source.

Provide evidence.

 

[Fledermaus]

Because right-wing candidates did their part by driving the duly elected president from office in February of 2014.

It was Ukrainian citizens and their elected representatives that scared Yanukovych to the point of running away.

 

[Fledermaus]

Fighting for regime change in Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood.
Again.

How is a free and independent Ukraine "Fighting for regime change in Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood."?

 

[slick]

It was Ukrainian citizens and their elected representatives that scared Yanukovych to the point of running away.

Not again!

In the last election before the 2014 Coup Vanulovich received 48.95% of the vote - Tymoshenko 45.47 of the vote,
& your still insisting that it was 'Ukrainian citizens and their elected representatives that scared Yanukovych to the point of running away!
In fact Ukraine elected representatives agreed to hold new elections later that year. Then came Yarosh, & his hachet man
Aleksandr Muzychko to force Yanucovich to leave Kiev for good. Everything is documented but that doesn't matter to you.
How terribly thick!

When will you realize that It was Yarosh, backed by the U.S., who took over as the public leader of the Maidan and rejected the Feb. 21, 2014, deal negotiated by the French, German, and Polish foreign ministers, under which Viktor Yanukovich, the democratically-elected president of Ukraine, and opposition political leaders agreed to hold new elections later that year. Instead, Yarosh and Right Sector not only did not give up weapons but instead led a march on parliament and overthrew the government.

 

[Fledermaus]

Not again!

In the last election before the 2014 Coup Vanulovich received 48.95% of the vote - Tymoshenko 45.47 of the vote,
& your still insisting that it was 'Ukrainian citizens and their elected representatives that scared Yanukovych to the point of running away!
In fact Ukraine elected representatives agreed to hold new elections later that year. Then came Yarosh, & his hachet man
Aleksandr Muzychko to force Yanucovich to leave Kiev for good. Everything is documented but that doesn't matter to you.
How terribly thick!

When will you realize that It was Yarosh, backed by the U.S., who took over as the public leader of the Maidan and rejected the Feb. 21, 2014, deal negotiated by the French, German, and Polish foreign ministers, under which Viktor Yanukovich, the democratically-elected president of Ukraine, and opposition political leaders agreed to hold new elections later that year. Instead, Yarosh and Right Sector not only did not give up weapons but instead led a march on parliament and overthrew the government.

That doesn't change the facts.

The Ukrainian people rose up. The Rada was primed to impeach. Yanukovych ran away rather than face the music.

 

[slick]

That doesn't change the facts.

The Ukrainian people rose up. The Rada was primed to impeach. Yanukovych ran away rather than face the music.

Winding down:

Thousands stayed in Maidan demanding Yanukovych’s exit, booing the now apologetic opposition leaders for signing the agreement. Protesters decried the deal as not enough, some gathering near Parliament, and demanded Yanukovych’s resignation and prosecution. They cheered as an ultranationalist threatened an armed overthrow if Yanukovych wasn’t gone by morning. (That speaker was later elected an MP, where he joined a far-right party and made a habit of physically assaulting his opponents)

My guess that speaker was either 'Parubiy' or 'Yarosh'
.
“If I was [President Yanukovych], I would try and flee the country,” said one protester in Lviv, where hundreds had gathered in the wake of the deal’s signing. “Otherwise, he’ll end up like [Muammar] Gaddafi or with a life sentence or the electric chair. He will not leave the country alive.

Panic gripped the capital. Rumors swirled that the hundreds of firearms seized days earlier by protesters raiding police stations in Lviv were on their way to Kyiv for a final, bloody stage to the insurrection. When Yanukovych’s own party voted to order troops and police to their barracks, both security forces and, subsequently, Yanukovych flew the city, expecting bloodshed.

Yanukovych & his security forces all left to save therir skulls that day, the last thing in the entire world they were thinking of was facing a Rada
impeachment. You got to be kidding!

 

[Fledermaus]

Winding down:

Thousands stayed in Maidan demanding Yanukovych’s exit, booing the now apologetic opposition leaders for signing the agreement. Protesters decried the deal as not enough, some gathering near Parliament, and demanded Yanukovych’s resignation and prosecution. They cheered as an ultranationalist threatened an armed overthrow if Yanukovych wasn’t gone by morning. (That speaker was later elected an MP, where he joined a far-right party and made a habit of physically assaulting his opponents)

My guess that speaker was either 'Parubiy' or 'Yarosh'
.
“If I was [President Yanukovych], I would try and flee the country,” said one protester in Lviv, where hundreds had gathered in the wake of the deal’s signing. “Otherwise, he’ll end up like [Muammar] Gaddafi or with a life sentence or the electric chair. He will not leave the country alive.

Panic gripped the capital. Rumors swirled that the hundreds of firearms seized days earlier by protesters raiding police stations in Lviv were on their way to Kyiv for a final, bloody stage to the insurrection. When Yanukovych’s own party voted to order troops and police to their barracks, both security forces and, subsequently, Yanukovych flew the city, expecting bloodshed.

Yanukovych & his security forces all left to save therir skulls that day, the last thing in the entire world they were thinking of was facing a Rada
impeachment. You got to be kidding!

 

[dandolo2k]

If a republic breaks it ceases to own anything.

Of cause . Correct. So, since Ukraine decided to break from Russia, the Donbass should be returned back to Russia.

 

[georgephillip]

The Poles didn't think so.

The Poles faced a no-win choice between Hitler or Stalin.
Would they have fared better under a Thousand Year Reich?

https://whowhatwhy.org/politics/government-integrity/wall-street-nazi-cartels/

 

[dandolo2k]

You don't say how many Japanese the Russians killed in WWII. Or the allied campaigns in North Africa, up the Italy peninsula in addition to Normandy and southern France. Liberty Ships lost to UBoats in the North Atlantic.

Russia invaded Manchuria/Manchuko when the Japanese home islands were on fire from USA bombers. Russia took on the Germans after allied bombing flattened Germany which is how it was when Russians arrived in spring 1945.

USA was full on preparing to invade Japan when the bomb got dropped, twice. Russia meanwhile lost 82% of its tanks in its offensives against the Nazis, which is an abysmal rate of loss. Indeed, the extent of your losses were your own doing.

The principal Russian commanders in the counteroffensive were Gen. Snow, Gen. Freeze, Gen. Mud, Gen. Heavy B. Rain and Gen. Chaos. Same as against Napoleon in fact.

Once again these old bearded fairy tales.!!! Now these guys (Gen. Snow, Gen. Freeze, Gen. Mud, Gen. Heavy B. Rain and Gen. Chaos.) are about to eliminate Europe .