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[W:718] The west must hold its nerve on Ukraine

Rogue Valley said:
Operating =/= kinetic warfare. It no doubt means facillitating the movement of Western weapons.
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Rogue Valley:

You're moving the goal posts of your own challenge to another poster here. Here follows:
Rogue Valley said:
You think anyone here accepts your words as fact? Give credible citations that there are NATO forces in Ukraine.

We all know you can't do that because you are lying about that just like you lie about everything else.

You made the claim. Now deliver those citations. Credible citations. Not any crap from the Kremlin.
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There are NATO troops in Ukraine and at least in the case of Canadian SFOs they have been moving in and out of Ukraine since the beginning of this year (January).

The claim is further complicated by the practice of the USA seconding active and retired US military personnel under CIA leadership. These "Red Teams" as they are sometimes called are commonly used for covert activities by the US Government because they are more easily deniable. They can be used for both non-kinetic and kinetic operations.

I am glad that these NATO special operators are at work in Ukraine doing whatever they are doing. However I am not willing to lie about it, so I decided to post what I know with citations to back it up. If a war is just then truth need not be the first casualty of war. That's my opinion, anyway.

Be well and stay alive.
Evilroddy.
 
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Evilroddy said:
Rogue Valley:

You're moving the goal posts of your own challenge to another poster here. Here follows:


There are NATO troops in Ukraine and at least in the case of Canadian SFOs they have been moving in and out of Ukraine since the beginning of this year (January).

The claim is further complicated by the practice of the USA seconding active and retired US military personnel under CIA leadership. These "Red Teams" as they are sometimes called are commonly used for covert activities by the US Government because they are more easily deniable. They can be used for both non-kenetic and kinetic operations.

I am glad that these NATO special operators are at work in Ukraine doing whatever they are doing. However I am not willing to lie about it, so I decided to post what I know with citations to back it up. If a war is just then truth need not be the first casualty of war. That's my opinion, anyway.

Be well and stay alive.
Evilroddy.
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No Roddy, there are no kinetic NATO forces in Ukraine.

But if there are, then it shouldn't be too hard for you to give us pics of them on the battlefields of Ukraine.
 
Rogue Valley said:
No Roddy, there are no kinetic NATO forces in Ukraine.

But if there are, then it shouldn't be too hard for you to give us pics of them on the battlefields of Ukraine.
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Rogue Valkey:

Two points:

1) You added the word "kinetic" after the fact of making your challenge to the other poster.

2) I strongly suspect that you could not cite links to prove that these NATO and perhaps US special forces under CIA control are not involved in the fighting either in direct combat, by training Ukranian weapon system operators in direct combat, by stand-off target acquisition, by SigInt identification of potential targets or by guarding convoys of Western arms flowing into Ukraine.

The operators have been proved to be there. Now it is up to you to prove your claim that they are not being used in any "kinetic" role, which after all is what they are trained to do among other things. I don't think anybody can prove that no such activity is happening. However, experience from WWII to Iraq and Africa today shows the opposite is more likely to be true with respect to Western SOFs.

Be well and stay alive.
Evilroddy.
 
Rogue Valley said:
So you can't supply credible citations that NATO forces are in Ukraine. All you have is your pro-forma Kremlin propaganda.

I wanted everyone reading this thread to take note of that. Mission accomplished.
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F*** Ukraine!

There, just F*** Ukraine!

If they can't handle Russia on their own then F*** them!

Evolution weeds out the weak, and Ukraine is weak!
 
Rogue Valley said:
No illegal coup. Yanukovych deserted his presidency and his own party parliament voted to remove him from office.

Tanukovych fled to mother Russia
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"If America’s successful February 2014 overthrow and replacement of Ukraine’s democratically elected neutralist Government doesn’t soon produce a world-ending nuclear war (World War III), then there will be historical accounts of that overthrow, and the accounts are already increasingly trending and consolidating toward a historical consensus that it was a coup — that it was imposed by 'somebody from the new coalition' — i.e., that the termination of the then-existing democratic (though like all its predecessors, corrupt) Ukrainian Government, wasn’t authentically a ‘revolution’ such as the U.S. Government has contended, and certainly wasn’t at all democratic, but was instead a coup (and a very bloody one, at that), and totally illegal (though backed by The West)."

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/...ernment-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/
 
iguanaman said:
LOL It was the U.S. that defeated both Hitler and Tojo. Without our help Germany would have crushed the Russian army like a bug and even Stalin agreed. The Russians are not good at war no matter how many times they start them
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The Russians defeated 190 Nazi divisions.
There were a dozen Nazi divisions in Europe.
Russia lost millions of civilians to the Nazis.
The US lost 0.
US banks funded Hitler's rise to power as a buffer against Russia.
How did that work out?
 
Rogue Valley said:
Right Sektor failed to meet the 5% vote threshold in both the 2014 election and the 2019 election.

Dmytro Yarosh is no longer in politics.
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So what?
Right Sector's principal purpose was never to win votes.
It was to control the streets in much the same way Hitler's Brown Shirts brought Nazis to power in Germany.
 
georgephillip said:
"Right Sector led the January 19 attacks on police in Kyiv that even opposition leaders criticized, with one protester saying the far-right bloc had 'breathed new life into these protests.'

"Andriy Parubiy, the unofficial 'commander of Maidan,' founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine — a barely even winking allusion to Nazism — that later became Svoboda.

"By January 2014, even NBC was admitting that 'right-wing militia-type toughs are now one of the strongest factions leading Ukraine’s protests.'

"What was meant to be a revolution for democracy and liberal values ended up featuring ultranationalist chants from the 1930s and prominent displays of fascist and white supremacist symbols, including the American Confederate flag."

https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
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Yea, this Andriy Parubiy guy was rewarded mightily for his leadership in the Euromaidan Coup.
First as People's Deputy of Ukraine (2007–2012) & then as the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada,
the Ukrainian parliament, from April 2016 to August 2019.

Parubiy as chairman of the Rada:
Told chat show Freedom of Speech on the ICTV channel that he had “scientifically studied” democracy
and cautioned his audience “not to forget the contributions of the Fuhrer to the development of democracy.
“The greatest man who practised direct democracy was Adolf Hitler in the 1930s,” he said.
The founder of the Social National Party, now known as Svoboda, added that it was “necessary
to introduce direct democracy to Ukraine, with Hitler as its torchbearer.”
Parubiy's party 'Svoboda" called the Holocaust of WW II, "A Bright Period in Human History!”
Nobody can doubt how Parubiy feels about Hitler or the Russians.

As odd a character as Paruby has become he was educated and never could eclipse the brutality
of IMO the most interesting character Aleksandr Muzychko the hatchet man!
Back in 2007 he pledged to fight against "communists,
Jews and Russians for as long as blood flows in his veins,"
Back in 1994, Muzychko, aka Sashko Bilyi, arrived in Chechnya to join separatist forces.
He took part in numerous battles with federal troops, mainly in the capital Grozny, and
personally knocked out three tanks, six armored personnel carriers and a SP vehicle.

“Muzychko brutally tortured prisoners of war among the Russian federal forces and then killed them.
Muzychko personally tortured and then murdered at least 20 prisoners to extract the information he required,
Muzychko broke soldiers’ fingers, gouged out their eyes, tore out their nails
with pliers, slashed the throats of some and shot others.

Only two of the good natured Ukranian patriots who were instramental in the success of the Kiev Maidan Coup
 
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Rogue Valley said:
Both Democrats and Republicans in the US Congress support Ukraine, as does the EU, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, S.Korea, Indonesia, etc etc etc.
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Most of the world is sick of US hypocrisy and sanctions.
Most Republicans AND Democrats fund their campaigns by supporting the mass killing of civilians on the other side of the planet, so it's hardly surprising they back another opportunity to bleed Russia in Ukraine.
 
georgephillip said:
The Russians defeated 190 Nazi divisions.
There were a dozen Nazi divisions in Europe.
Russia lost millions of civilians to the Nazis.
The US lost 0.
US banks funded Hitler's rise to power as a buffer against Russia.
How did that work out?
Click to expand...

And the USSR was hand in glove with Nazi Germany in the dissection of Poland.
 
georgephillip said:
The Russians defeated 190 Nazi divisions.
There were a dozen Nazi divisions in Europe.
Russia lost millions of civilians to the Nazis.
The US lost 0.
US banks funded Hitler's rise to power as a buffer against Russia.
How did that work out?
Click to expand...
Are you calling Stalin a liar? Stalin told Roosevelt that the Russians would have lost to the Nazi's without our help. The thanks we got for that favor was the Russians annexing every country they "liberated" using our equipment. That is the kind of country Russia was and Putin is reviving those imperialist behaviors. But back to the question. America defeated the Nazi's and Russia used that victory to annex dozens of countries just like Hitler did. The Russian leaders are scum and always have been.

Most famously, Soviet dictator Josef Stalin raised a toast to the Lend-Lease program at the November 1943 Tehran conference with British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt.

"I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war," Stalin said. "The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war."

https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend...viet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html
 
georgephillip said:
Most of the world is sick of US hypocrisy and sanctions.
Most Republicans AND Democrats fund their campaigns by supporting the mass killing of civilians on the other side of the planet, so it's hardly surprising they back another opportunity to bleed Russia in Ukraine.
Click to expand...

Of all American Politicians about the dumbest had to be McCain. Here is McCain who could be seen everywhere with
with Oleh Tyahnybok. He towered over McCain both physically & mentally leading to some more of McCains dumbassed moves
& stumbling indulgences which McCain became famous for in Georgia, Syria & later Libya giving Bush #2 & Obama
more headaches than they needed.

John McCain who wouldn't know a just cause if it kick him in his war mongering old ass. Those countries who he
championed now wish they never heard the name McCain. McCain's rhetoric, literally led the Georgians
to over step and get crushed by Russia.

McCain's efforts to destabilize Ukraine leading to the Kiev Maidan was only secondary to that of
Victoria Nuland & their dual efforts lead to Ukraine to a disastrous military adventure
& the loss of the valuable provinces in the east including Crimea.

Below: "human rights champion" John McCain literally pictures him alongside Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the anti-Semitic Ukrainian ultra-nationalist, neo-Nazi Svoboda party.

U.S. Senator John McCain, center, speaks and Opposition leader Oleh Tyahnybok, right, stands around him during a Pro-European Union rally in Independence Square in Kiev, Ukraine, Sunday, Dec. 15, 2013. AP
 

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slick said:
Of all American Politicians about the dumbest had to be McCain. Here is McCain who could be seen everywhere with
with Oleh Tyahnybok. He towered over McCain both physically & mentally leading to some more of McCains dumbassed moves
& stumbling indulgences which McCain became famous for in Georgia, Syria & later Libya giving Bush #2 & Obama
more headaches than they needed.

John McCain who wouldn't know a just cause if it kick him in his war mongering old ass. Those countries who he
championed now wish they never heard the name McCain. McCain's rhetoric, literally led the Georgians
to over step and get crushed by Russia.

McCain's efforts to destabilize Ukraine leading to the Kiev Maidan was only secondary to that of
Victoria Nuland & their dual efforts lead to Ukraine to a disastrous military adventure
& the loss of the valuable provinces in the east including Crimea.

Below: "human rights champion" John McCain literally pictures him alongside Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the anti-Semitic Ukrainian ultra-nationalist, neo-Nazi Svoboda party.

U.S. Senator John McCain, center, speaks and Opposition leader Oleh Tyahnybok, right, stands around him during a Pro-European Union rally in Independence Square in Kiev, Ukraine, Sunday, Dec. 15, 2013. AP
Click to expand...

The origins of Maidan was Yanukovich's turning his back on European overtures. This caused the issues. Not what McCain or Nuland did.

Yanukovich's crackdwon on protestors sealed the deal. It was the people of Ukraine who rose up. And their elected representatives in the Rada were preparing to impeach Yanukovich which in turn led to the worm running of to Russia...

And what " disastrous military adventure" do you speak of? Defending Ukraine from Russia?
 
Evilroddy said:
The operators have been proved to be there. Now it is up to you to prove your claim that they are not being used in any "kinetic" role, which after all is what they are trained to do among other things.
Click to expand...

You made this claim.....

Evilroddy said:
From a solidly Western source a report that NATO Specal Forces from at least four NATO member states are operating on Ukrainian territory.
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....yet you conveniently neglected to specify what these NATO member operatives are doing in Uktaine. I suggested they could be helping facilitate the transfer of NATO weaponry.

You seem to suggest they are participating in "kinetic" operations. If that is your allegation, then you need to prove that allegation.
 
georgephillip said:
Most of the world is sick of US hypocrisy and sanctions.
Click to expand...

Most of the world is sick of Russian propaganda, invasions, and war crimes.

www.reuters.com

U.N. General Assembly in historic vote denounces Russia over Ukraine invasion

The United Nations General Assembly on Wednesday overwhelmingly voted to reprimand Russia for invading Ukraine and demanded that Moscow stop fighting and withdraw its military forces, an action that aims to diplomatically isolate Russia at the world body.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
Tangmo said:
Merkel was of course Putin's Lilly Marlene.
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At the least there was no war in Ukraine while they were talking:
623129b905d3cdc8e57e75c6_1*0KfstVTQh9fj2Uwes1LVhw.jpeg

"Merkel, who speaks fluent Russian just as Putin speaks fluent German, and who was Chancellor from 2005 onwards, was supposed to be the one Western leader with whom Putin had a fairly good understanding.

"But Dr Merkel ceased to be Chancellor of Germany on the 8th of December, 2021.

"Though Russia had been building up troops on Ukraine’s border for most of 2021, the official story was that it was just an exercise.

"Would Putin have moved to attack the Ukraine, and to go all the way to Kyiv, without Merkel’s restraining influence? I wonder."

https://www.a-maverick.com/blog/should-we-bring-back-angela-merkel-ukraine-war-diplomacy
 
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