[W:718] The west must hold its nerve on Ukraine

[georgephillip]

The UKRAINIAN PEOPLE rose up and the President abandoned his office.




Unelected?





Because:

It was RUSSIA that illegally annexed Crimea.

It was RUSSIA that started the Proxy war in Donbass.

It was RUSSIA that invaded Ukraine again.

How does the existence of Ukraine lead to regime change in Russia?

Which came first, a US-supported violent coup that killed police offices (spearheaded by Nazis) in Kiev or Russia's liberation of Crimea and Donbass? The existence of hostile military forces on Russian borders leads to the possibility of regime change in Moscow; how many more times are you going to pose the same stupid question?

 

[georgephillip]

You keep doing that, I'll keep doing this....


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych (and with a citation)

You can't outlast me. I've been here supporting Ukraine every day since April 18, 2013.

Your link:

"Yanukovych was elected president in 2010, defeating Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. The election was judged free and fair by international observers.[7][8] November 2013 saw the beginning of a series of events that led to his ousting as president.[9][10][11] Yanukovych rejected a pending EU association agreement, choosing instead to pursue a Russian loan bailout and closer ties with Russia."

Yanukovych was democratically elected and driven from office by a violent mob of neo-Nazis BEFORE a bogus Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from office.

You may have been supporting Ukraine every day since April of 2013, but Ukraine will run out of ammunition by Christmas and no country on this planet (except one) has the manufacturing capacity to keep Ukraine supplied.

 

[Tangmo]

What part of our foreign policy for the past few decades are you a fan of?

- Supporting genocide in Guatemala cuz commies?

Genocide In Guatemala - Holocaust Museum Houston

Guatemala is a mainly mountainous country in Central America. It was once at the heart of the remarkable Mayan civilization, which flourished until the 10th

hmh.org

-Overthrowing a democratic Iran and installing a dictator because they wanted to audit a British oil company which brought about the current anti-west government?

The 1953 Coup D'etat in Iran on JSTOR

Mark J. Gasiorowski, The 1953 Coup D'etat in Iran, International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 19, No. 3 (Aug., 1987), pp. 261-286

www.jstor.org

-Two decades of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that either resulted in nothing gained or creating an environment for ISIS to eventually grow when we also helped create a power vacuum in Syria?
-Bombing the Libyan government out of existence and now it's a failed state with open-air slave markets and genocide of Black Libyans?

‘It Was As if We Weren’t Human.’ Inside the Modern Slave Trade Trapping African Migrants

An estimated 650,000 have crossed the Sahara desert in the last 5 years seeking a better life. But thousands have been sold into slavery.

time.com

Black genocide in Libya - why the silence? | OBV

www.obv.org.uk

-Supporting extremists in Afghanistan to fight against Russia which got us Taliban rule and started the formation of Al-Quaeda and 9/11?

What are your favorite hits?

The post contains presumptive declaratory statements disguised very badly as interrogatories to include laughable question marks.

The statements are written from ready made answers: Yes, I'm stupid or No I'm stupid.

In other words they're loaded questions. With self made answers that are calculated to be explosive.

This is not debate, it is a storm of accusations founded in a fury of political distemper.

 

[Tangmo]

Your link:

"Yanukovych was elected president in 2010, defeating Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. The election was judged free and fair by international observers.[7][8] November 2013 saw the beginning of a series of events that led to his ousting as president.[9][10][11] Yanukovych rejected a pending EU association agreement, choosing instead to pursue a Russian loan bailout and closer ties with Russia."

Yanukovych was democratically elected and driven from office by a violent mob of neo-Nazis BEFORE a bogus Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from office.

You may have been supporting Ukraine every day since April of 2013, but Ukraine will run out of ammunition by Christmas and no country on this planet (except one) has the manufacturing capacity to keep Ukraine supplied.

You forgot cigarette lighters.

Common wisdom is that China manufactures 90% of the world's cigarette lighters. Who might manufacture the other 10% of 'em is unknown by those steeped in conventional wisdom.

China manufactures tiddlywinks.

 

[Fledermaus]

Which came first, a US-supported violent coup that killed police offices (spearheaded by Nazis) in Kiev or Russia's liberation of Crimea and Donbass? The existence of hostile military forces on Russian borders leads to the possibility of regime change in Moscow; how many more times are you going to pose the same stupid question?

Please lie more.

The UKRAINIAN PEOPLE rose up and the President abandoned his office.

I will ask the question until you actually answer it.

How does the existence of Ukraine lead to regime change in Russia?

HOW.

Explain HOW.

As in HOW.

You keep claiming but refuse to answer HOW.

There have been hostile military forces on Russian borders for decades and no regime change.

 

[lwf]

Putin had no problems with NATO when he first came to power.
He even suggested Russia join the military alliance.
Who do you blame for sabotaging that possibility?

"'This, in fact, is the beginning of another 50 years of peace,' Democratic Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware declared in 1998 as the Senate voted in favor of expanding NATO to include Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic."

https://www.businessinsider.com/bid...s-which-putin-now-threatening-war-over-2022-2

Putin is to blame for sabotaging the possibility of Russia joining NATO. Full stop. His imperialist aims are not compatible with NATO membership, and his invasion of Ukraine is directly responsible for the escalated tensions between NATO and Russia.

 

[lwf]

How did NATO advance democracy in Yugoslavia and Libya?

Neither Yugoslavia nor Libya are NATO countries. NATO defends its own countries, not countries that are not members. Notice that no NATO country is currently fighting for Ukraine.

 

[Fledermaus]

Yanukovych was democratically elected and driven from office by a violent mob of neo-Nazis BEFORE a bogus Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from office.

UKRAINIAN CITIZENS scared off the Putin Puppet.... He abandoned his office.

 

[lwf]

In a word
Yes.

Are you gullible/disingenuous enough to believe the US anymore of a "good guy" in Africa than it was in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Afghanistan, or Iraq?

https://www.africom.mil/article/34494/african-lion-2022-begins-in-morocco-tunisia-senegal-and-ghana

That explains a lot. You think that because the United States enslaved Africans, that any African country can use that as an excuse to invade another country in order to expand its borders in 2022, and then blame NATO for it? The logical gymnastics Russians are trying to use to avoid blaming the one man who is responsible for sending their economy down the crapper is nothing short of breathtaking.

 

[Juin]

Neither Yugoslavia nor Libya are NATO countries. NATO defends its own countries, not countries that are not members. Notice that no NATO country is currently fighting for Ukraine.

What do you call all those arms flowing to Ukraine? There is at minimum a proxy war going on there.

 

[lwf]

What do you call all those arms flowing to Ukraine? There is at minimum a proxy war going on there.

Yes, but no NATO soldier is fighting any Russian soldier. And sending arms to Ukraine is the right thing to do. They are the victim of a hostile invasion from an imperialistic foreign superpower.

 

[Juin]

Yes, but no NATO soldier is fighting any Russian soldier.

Another may see it as a distinction without a distinction.

And sending arms to Ukraine is the right thing to do.

You believe it is the right thing to do. You are entitled to that. Others may differ.

They are the victim of a hostile invasion from an imperialistic foreign superpower.

The Russo Ukrainian conflict is nothing more than a divorce gone hostile.

 

[Tangmo]

What do you call all those arms flowing to Ukraine? There is at minimum a proxy war going on there.

The real complaint is that Russian forces land sea and air can't stop or doesn't dare stop NATO arms and munitions transit throughout the war zone in Ukraine.

Either the Russian command doesn't know the routes of NATO equipment being delivered in Ukraine to Ukraine forces or Russian commanders don't risk trying to stop 'em.

Or can't stop 'em.

Either way the Ukraine advantage is that their rear echelon is NATO.

 

[Rogue Valley]

The logical gymnastics Russians are trying to use to avoid blaming the one man who is responsible for sending their economy down the crapper is nothing short of breathtaking.

Indeed. Breathtaking on a Trumpian scale.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Your link:

Viktor Yanukovych - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From my link:

"On 22 February 2014, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from his post and schedule new elections on the grounds that he "has restrained himself from performing his constitutional duties" and effectively resigned.[17]"

Yanukovych abandoned his elected office as President and fled to Russia to avoid impeachment and criminal charges.

He was later tried in absentia, convicted of treason, and sentenced to 13 years in prison.

 

[georgephillip]

You forgot cigarette lighters.

Common wisdom is that China manufactures 90% of the world's cigarette lighters. Who might manufacture the other 10% of 'em is unknown by those steeped in conventional wisdom.

China manufactures tiddlywinks.

What else does China manufacture?

"China continues to have the most active and diverse ballistic missile development program in the world.

"It is developing and testing offensive missiles, forming additional missile units, qualitatively upgrading missile systems, and developing methods to counter ballistic missile defenses."

https://www.nasic.af.mil/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=F2VLcKSmCTE=&portalid=19

 

[georgephillip]

How does the existence of Ukraine lead to regime change in Russia?

I've answered that question multiple times.
Keep asking as long as you want.
I'm done wasting my time with it.

 

[lwf]

Another may see it as a distinction without a distinction.

There is a far cry between supporting a foreign war financially because it is in your interests and declaring war on another country. Russia did the same thing during the US invasion of Iraq in 2003.

The Russo Ukrainian conflict is nothing more than a divorce gone hostile.

Now that is distinction without a distinction.

 

[Fledermaus]

I've answered that question multiple times.

You never answered HOW.

You are lying.

Keep asking as long as you want.

Happily

I'm done wasting my time with it.

You never spent time answering the question.

Stop lying.

Please lie more.

The UKRAINIAN PEOPLE rose up and the President abandoned his office.

I will ask the question until you actually answer it.

How does the existence of Ukraine lead to regime change in Russia?

HOW.

Explain HOW.

As in HOW.

You keep claiming but refuse to answer HOW.

There have been hostile military forces on Russian borders for decades and no regime change.

 

[lwf]

I've answered that question multiple times.
Keep asking as long as you want.
I'm done wasting my time with it.

A regime change in Russia would be the best thing for Russians. It is, in fact, the only possibility to salvage what is left of their economy.

 

[georgephillip]

Neither Yugoslavia nor Libya are NATO countries. NATO defends its own countries, not countries that are not members. Notice that no NATO country is currently fighting for Ukraine.

NATO destroyed Yugoslavia and Libya in spite of the fact neither posed a threat to any NATO state. Even Putin recognized the the threat to global stability posed by NATO's actions in Kosovo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russi...mbing_of_Yugoslavia_and_recognition_of_Kosovo

"Russian President Vladimir Putin described the recognition of Kosovo's independence by several major world powers as 'a terrible precedent, which will de facto blow apart the whole system of international relations, developed not over decades, but over centuries', and that 'they have not thought through the results of what they are doing. At the end of the day it is a two-ended stick and the second end will come back and hit them in the face.'"

 

[georgephillip]

A regime change in Russia would be the best thing for Russians. It is, in fact, the only possibility to salvage what is left of their economy.

Wouldn't that depend on who would replace Putin?
This Russian believes Putin may be planning on his daughter following in his footsteps?

https://theanalysis.news/putins-war-driven-by-domestic-politics-boris-kagarlitsky/

 

[georgephillip]

UKRAINIAN CITIZENS scared off the Putin Puppet.... He abandoned his office.

After right wing neo-Nazi thugs murdered police officers and Victoria Nuland picked Ukraine's next Prime Minister.

 

[lwf]

Wouldn't that depend on who would replace Putin?
This Russian believes Putin may be planning on his daughter following in his footsteps?

https://theanalysis.news/putins-war-driven-by-domestic-politics-boris-kagarlitsky/

Yes, it would certainly depend on who is replacing him. But the point is there is no possibility for salvaging the Russian economy with Putin at the helm. A Putin-led Russia has a future as bright as North Korea's.

 

[Tangmo]

What else does China manufacture?

"China continues to have the most active and diverse ballistic missile development program in the world.

"It is developing and testing offensive missiles, forming additional missile units, qualitatively upgrading missile systems, and developing methods to counter ballistic missile defenses."

https://www.nasic.af.mil/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=F2VLcKSmCTE=&portalid=19

Your hysteria comes from thinking the Chicoms are the only ones doing this.

The problem though is that the Chinese need and must do things in the Chinese way. As has been pointed out in multiple successive threads over time the PLA et al can't fight the American way of integrated battle space operations.

The very conservative Chinese stick to what they know, ie, converting mass human wave attacks to mass missile attacks. For the US armed forces it's obvious that you don't try to match 'em arrow for arrow. You go after their command and control centers deep into the China mainland to take 'em out. Then there are no more Chinese arrows incoming.