[W:718] The west must hold its nerve on Ukraine

[oneworld2]

how about cannon fodder? does Ukraine have enough bodies to get blown up
while blowing up Russians? can you say "attrition?"

Yep the bs is starting to be exposed and so , in fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian , we MUST " hold our nerve" .

These people actually try to fool us all that they care about Ukraine and Ukrainians when all along it has been a proxy against Russia using them as cannon fodder.

And the fools here still fly their , virtue signalling , Ukraine flags and cry over the body count without any awareness of how grotesque their position is.

 

[oneworld2]

Ukrainians are not in "cannon fodder" mode while it appears the Russians are.

Keep believing the nonsense.

I bet you still think the pushback to the Russian border scam around Kharkiv was real

 

[Fledermaus]

Keep believing the nonsense.

I bet you still think the pushback to the Russian border scam around Kharkiv was real

Your intentional ignorance is noted.

Russian units withdraw in Kharkiv Oblast after suffering losses, General Staff says​

Russian units withdraw in Kharkiv Oblast after suffering losses, General Staff says

Russian forces have retreated from the administrative border of Kharkiv and Donetsk Oblasts, after taking losses in the Kharkiv border settlement of Dovhenke, the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine reported via Facebook on June 1.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Fledermaus]

Yep the bs is starting to be exposed and so , in fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian , we MUST " hold our nerve" .

These people actually try to fool us all that they care about Ukraine and Ukrainians when all along it has been a proxy against Russia using them as cannon fodder.

And the fools here still fly their , virtue signalling , Ukraine flags and cry over the body count without any awareness of how grotesque their position is.

The proxies were the Donbass "separatists" armed, supported and assisted by Putin.


And what is "grotesque" about cheering the Ukrainians in their fight against an invader?

 

[oneworld2]

Your intentional ignorance is noted.

Russian units withdraw in Kharkiv Oblast after suffering losses, General Staff says​

Russian units withdraw in Kharkiv Oblast after suffering losses, General Staff says

Russian forces have retreated from the administrative border of Kharkiv and Donetsk Oblasts, after taking losses in the Kharkiv border settlement of Dovhenke, the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine reported via Facebook on June 1.

news.yahoo.com

Your willingness to show you don't understand what people are talking about is the only thing being noted and on a daily basis too.

Evidently you have no clue what I was actually referring to. The sacked Kharkiv SBU leader let the cat out of the bag on the staged border photo scam that cost 4 Ukrainian soldiers their lives.

 

[Fledermaus]

Your willingness to show you don't understand what people are talking about is the only thing being noted and on a daily basis too.

Evidently you have no clue what I was actually referring to. The sacked Kharkiv SBU leader let the cat out of the bag on the staged border photo scam that cost 4 Ukrainian soldiers their lives.

What does any of that prattle have to do with what I posted?

 

[oneworld2]

What does any of that prattle have to do with what I posted?

What you posted was ignorant of that to which it was supposed to be a response. That's what. Do try and focus, even if it hurts.

 

[Fledermaus]

What you posted was ignorant of that to which it was supposed to be a response. That's what. Do try and focus, even if it hurts.

More prattle, zero substance.

 

[dandolo2k]

Ukraine's borders today remain exactly what they were when the USSR dissolved in 1991.

Ukraine, the Russian Federation, and Belarus all agreed on borders with the signing of the Belovezh Accords on 8 December 1991 at the Belovezhskaya Pushcha, Viskuli, Belarus and the signing of the Alma-Ata Protocol on 21 December 1991.

The Presidents of Ukraine, Belarus, and the Russian Federation signing the Belovezh Accords.

The borders of these three new states were submitted to the United Nations upon their acceptance to the UN on 31 January 1992.

Furthermore, on 28 May 1997 Ukraine and the Russian Federation agreed upon (Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet) how to split up the Black Sea Fleet and Russia's payments to Ukraine for leasing the fleet headquarters at Sevastopol,Crimea.

Memo to dandolo2k: Putin's historical revisionisms are neither factual nor true.

Belovezha Accords - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Alma-Ata Protocol - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ha, Ha ! You have recalled this "signing of the Belovezh Accords in Belovezhskaya Pushcha" ?
Everything which your criminal governments benefit from you do remember. Nice. And who has authorized these "accords" ? When Britain resolved to divorce with the EU, it held referendum. Who did hold referendom on theses notorious "accords"? I never voted for these "accords". Nor my parents. Neither anyone else whom I personally know. Who has entitled these corrupted criminals to donate the territories of sovereign country (the USSR) ? Who has voted for the "collapse" of Soviet Union ? May be mr Reagan ? May be your parents, my respectfull opponents? Surely they got more power then us (Russians, Ukranians), to decide on such matters.
And by the way these "accords" proclaimed neutral status of Ukraine. It is not neutral. And never been. Its staffed with all kinds of weapons. It has leased its military bases to NATO troops. It has organized the genocide and persecution of russian poplation.
So , guys, you can take these printed "accords", and use it in the correct place -- in the toilet.
I am pretty sure that tomorow, ms Victoria Nuland can send some of her nazy friends to Siberia, and tomorow they will sign new "accords" which effectively proclaim independent Siberia, but be ready to take your guns and go and fight there for these new accords, and surely we will find some very polite people who will be able to explain it to you , who has this right to sign such "accords", and who hasn't.

 

[Fledermaus]

Ha, Ha ! You have recalled this "signing of the Belovezh Accords in Belovezhskaya Pushcha" ?
Everything which your criminal governments benefit from you do remember. Nice. And who has authorized these "accords" ? When Britain resolved to divorce with the EU, it held referendum. Who did hold referendom on theses notorious "accords"? I never voted for these "accords". Nor my parents. Neither anyone else whom I personally know. Who has entitled these corrupted criminals to donate the territories of sovereign country (the USSR) ? Who has voted for the "collapse" of Soviet Union ? May be mr Reagan ? May be your parents, my respectfull opponents? Surely they got more power then us (Russians, Ukranians), to decide on such matters.
And by the way these "accords" proclaimed neutral status of Ukraine. It is not neutral. And never been. Its staffed with all kinds of weapons. It has leased its military bases to NATO troops. It has organized the genocide and persecution of russian poplation.
So , guys, you can take these printed "accords", and use it in the correct place -- in the toilet.
I am pretty sure that tomorow, ms Victoria Nuland can send some of her nazy friends to Siberia, and tomorow they will sign new "accords" which effectively proclaim independent Siberia, but be ready to take your guns and go and fight there for these new accords, and surely we will find some very polite people who will be able to explain it to you , who has this right to sign such "accords", and who hasn't.

The accords were signed and Putin broke faith...

No one cares if YOU signed them. You are not a head of the CIS, Belarus of Ukraine. It is the right of the former USSR heads to recognize the independence of subordinate states. And the SOVIET UNION decided to terminate the USSR.

 

[dandolo2k]

The accords were signed and Putin broke faith...

No one cares if YOU signed them. You are not a head of the CIS, Belarus of Ukraine. It is the right of the former USSR heads to recognize the independence of subordinate states. And the SOVIET UNION decided to terminate the USSR.

" It is the right of the former USSR heads to recognize the independence " => they had no such authority, no such rights, and you know this. May be Boris Johnson has the right to give freedom to Scortland? Ridiculous. Just stop pushing this bullshit . You claim that these drunken thugs, these "heads" had these rights just because you want them to have it, just because it is comfortable for you and your corrupted governments. Soviet Union or any representatives of it have NO Right to decide territorial issues. All their "decisions" are void. Only the common will of ENTIRE population can be taken into account.
But once again only you believe in this nonsense and propaganda you are pushing.

 

[dandolo2k]

A border expansion by military force is by definition an invasion and not a peacekeeping mission.

Nobody expanded borders by military force yet. Has Russia declared about its expansion ? Where can we find such information ? May by Putin proclaimed borders extensions? When ? May be Peskov ?
There is a civil war going on inside Ukraine, and it started when criminal junta of Nationalists declared the war against their own people in 2014 , against Ukranians.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Nobody expanded borders by military force yet.

Russia illegally expanded its borders in 2014 by military force vis-a-vis Crimea.

I see you had no cogent response for Beloveza, Alma-Ata, or the division of the Black Sea Fleet.

You only seem to like History when it conforms to your narrative. When it does not, you employ revisionism.

Olga Skabeeva would champion your revisionism. The rest of the world has no use for it.

 

[Fledermaus]

" It is the right of the former USSR heads to recognize the independence " => they had no such authority, no such rights, and you know this.

Yes, they did have the right and the authority.

The former SSRs were part of the USSR.

May be Boris Johnson has the right to give freedom to Scortland? Ridiculous. Just stop pushing this bullshit .

Irrelevant whataboutism.

You claim that these drunken thugs, these "heads" had these rights just because you want them to have it, just because it is comfortable for you and your corrupted governments. Soviet Union or any representatives of it have NO Right to decide territorial issues.

They had every right to decide territorial rights of their territories.

All their "decisions" are void. Only the common will of ENTIRE population can be taken into account.

Incorrect. Laughably so.

But once again only you believe in this nonsense and propaganda you are pushing.

I believe the facts. And the facts are the dissolution of the USSR resulted in independent nations by agreements made by representatives of those nations. The UNION of Soviet Socialist Republics ceased to be a Union.

Nobody expanded borders by military force yet. Has Russia declared about its expansion ? Where can we find such information ? May by Putin proclaimed borders extensions? When ? May be Peskov ?
There is a civil war going on inside Ukraine, and it started when criminal junta of Nationalists declared the war against their own people in 2014 , against Ukranians.

Crimea. Donbass.

And Ukrainians rose up against a Putin puppet and that bothers you so.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Only the common will of ENTIRE population can be taken into account.

Then why did Moscow ignore this modality in 2014 with Crimea? In fact, the Constitution of Crimea at the time stated that its status could only be changed via a referendum of ALL Ukrainians.

 

[dandolo2k]

whataboutism == "the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue."

I make no accusation. I just show that the Ukraine, breaking from the USSR is the same case as Scotland breaking from the UK, the following procedures should be triggered , the main of which is a referendum. So this remark is irrelevent.

I believe the facts. And the facts are the dissolution of the USSR resulted in independent nations by agreements made by representatives of those nations. The UNION of Soviet Socialist Republics ceased to be a Union.

Now you should beleve the new facts. And the new acts are the dissolution of the UKRAINE resulted in independent nations (Donbass, Luganks, Herson Republic) by agreements which are to be made by representatives of those nations . The Ukraine ceased to be a separate state (de facto).

Yes, they did have the right and the authority.

This is a pointless gossip. Who did granted this authority? You ? Boris Johnson?
All the discussion turns to the sequences of meaningless claims .

 

[dandolo2k]

Then why did Moscow ignore this modality in 2014 with Crimea? In fact, the Constitution of Crimea at the time stated that its status could only be changed via a referendum of ALL Ukrainians.

Because Ukraniane authorities refused to hold such referendum. When I say "authorities" I mean a bunch of corrupted criminals which have siezed illegally power in 2014 with the help and under protection of US external actors.
When you say "In fact, the Constitution of Crimea" you admit de facto that Crimia is a separate entity.

 

[Fledermaus]

I make no accusation. I just show that the Ukraine, breaking from the USSR is the same case as Scotland breaking from the UK, the following procedures should be triggered , the main of which is a referendum. So this remark is irrelevent.

Irrelevant.

Now you should beleve the new facts. And the new acts are the dissolution of the UKRAINE resulted in independent nations (Donbass, Luganks, Herson Republic) by agreements which are to be made by representatives of those nations . The Ukraine ceased to be a separate state (de facto).

There was no legal/legitimate agreement dissolving Ukraine. It was done by Putin who is NOT the legitimate authority over Ukraine territory.

Ukraine is internationally recognized and a sovereign state to include Crimea and Donbass.

This is a pointless gossip. Who did granted this authority? You ? Boris Johnson?
All the discussion turns to the sequences of meaningless claims .

Stupid statements.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Because Ukraniane authorities refused to hold such referendum. When I say "authorities" I mean a bunch of corrupted criminals which have siezed illegally power in 2014 with the help and under protection of US external actors.
When you say "In fact, the Constitution of Crimea" you admit de facto that Crimia is a separate entity.

Cut the crap. Crimea was being militarily occupied by Russia and remains so.

Your lies may find traction in Moscow, but they don't fly here where the government doesn't control all media.

 

[Fledermaus]

Because Ukraniane authorities refused to hold such referendum. When I say "authorities" I mean a bunch of corrupted criminals which have siezed illegally power in 2014 with the help and under protection of US external actors.
When you say "In fact, the Constitution of Crimea" you admit de facto that Crimia is a separate entity.

When in doubt continue to regurgitate lies.

Crimea is still Ukrainian territory.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Because Ukraniane authorities refused to hold such referendum. When I say "authorities" I mean a bunch of corrupted criminals which have siezed illegally power in 2014 with the help and under protection of US external actors.
When you say "In fact, the Constitution of Crimea" you admit de facto that Crimia is a separate entity.

Ukraine had granted Crimea (ARC) "autonomous" status, but Crimea remained sovereign Ukrainian land.

Which is why Moscow paid Ukraine to lease the Black Sea base at Sevastopol, Crimea.

 

[lwf]

Nobody expanded borders by military force yet. Has Russia declared about its expansion ? Where can we find such information ? May by Putin proclaimed borders extensions? When ? May be Peskov ?
There is a civil war going on inside Ukraine, and it started when criminal junta of Nationalists declared the war against their own people in 2014 , against Ukranians.

Is Crimea a part of Russia or a part of Ukraine?

 

[Rogue Valley]

United Nations | General Assembly Adopts Resolution Calling upon States Not to Recognize Changes in Status of Crimea Region

 

[dandolo2k]

Is Crimea a part of Russia or a part of Ukraine?

a Part of Soviet Union, which is followed by Russia. And since Russia has payed debts for all the Soviet Union, therefore it owns by default all properties of Soviet Union, including all its territories.

 

[Rogue Valley]

a Part of Soviet Union, which is followed by Russia. And since Russia has payed debts for all the Soviet Union, therefore it owns by default all properties of Soviet Union, including all its territories.

Another lie by you. Russians seem unable to post here without lying. Is lying a national trait?

The transfer of the Crimean Oblast in 1954 was an administrative action of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union, which transferred the government of the Crimean Peninsula from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR) to the Ukrainian SSR. The decree was first announced, on the front page of Pravda, on 27 February 1954. The full text of the decree was:

On April 26, 1954 The decree of the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet transferring the Crimea Oblast from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.

Taking into account the integral character of the economy, the territorial proximity and the close economic and cultural ties between the Crimea Province and the Ukrainian SSR, the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet decrees:

To approve the joint presentation of the Presidium of the Russian SFSR Supreme Soviet and the Presidium of the Ukrainian SSR Supreme Soviet on the transfer of the Crimea Province from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.

Consequently, amendments were made to the republican constitutions of Russia and Ukraine. On 2 June 1954 the Supreme Soviet of Russia adopted amendments to the Russian Constitution of 1937, which, among other things, excluded Crimea from list of subdivisions enumerated in article 14, and on 17 June 1954, the Verkhovna Rada added Crimea to article 18 of the 1937 Constitution of the Ukrainian SSR.

Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet "About the transfer of the Crimean Oblast". Supreme Council Herald, 9 March 1954.