[W:#672]Pro-Choice and Pro-life?

[hecatmoggie]

I’m sorry you value a fetus more than a woman.

not more and there are long term mental damages and sometimes physical damage as well from abortion - its not a 30 minute play date at an abortion clinic and go home happy you know

I think everyone would ideally want ZERO unplanned pregnancies and ZERO unwanted pregnancies .... can we all agree on that ?

 

[weaver2]

Your argument assumes there is no other body within her body.

You clearly do not read or listen to what pro-choice advocates are saying. Every pro-choice advocate is aware that there is another body growing during a pregnancy and they know that abortion terminates that growth ending the pregnancy.

If you believe pro-choice advocates don't believe pregnancy involves another body you need to post and source statements by pro-choice people saying so.

That's always the standby rationale that only one body and person is being affected.

The one body argument is not a pro-choice argument. That's the anti-abortion argument; only the fetus has any value. Women get abortions precisely because there are other human beings in the family that will have their lives harmed by the birth of an unplanned and unwanted child.

Your unsourced accusations about how pro-choice advocates think and what they believe have about the same value as the excrement thrown by monkeys in a rage.

 

[hecatmoggie]

We're not progressing. Some places all around the world are progressing - the Mexican Supreme Court and South Korean Supreme Court just decided that the anti-abortion laws in their nations are unconstitutional. Even the Irish government made a law allowing some abortion, and governments all over South America have been liberalizing their anti-abortion laws, too. In the US, quite a few states have constitutions that allow abortion and voters have prevented the anti-abortion legislators from imposing unpopular anti-abortion laws. But there are anti-abortion bullies and thugs in every state. If we have to have a violent physical civil war to stop them, we will, because they have nothing to do with any progess. They're rapists.

then we disagree on what progress is and that's ok

there are pro-abortion bullies and thugs in every states and now that your side doesn't have its way you're calling for a violent physical war ?

ok, that's your option, your choice, I don't think your side would ever win that but ooooooookay

 

[hecatmoggie]

The one body argument is not a pro-choice argument. That's the anti-abortion argument; only the fetus has any value. Women get abortions precisely because there are other human beings in the family that will have their lives harmed by the birth of an unplanned and unwanted child.

Your unsourced accusations about how pro-choice advocates think and what they believe have about the same value as the excrement thrown by monkeys in a rage.

nobody has ever said in these 15 pages that "only the fetus has value"

not once

FYI EVERY baby ever born has a financial impact on family - every single one - that argument holds no water

why do women get abortions? (outside rape/incest/health of mother)

polls and study's vary, from not married, not ready, financial impact (on many levels), would get in the way of education, has enough kids already, .... there are many reasons

so we go back to the question - why are they having sex if they're not ready for the ramifications OF having sex ?

 

[FreeStorm84]

why are they having sex if they're not ready for the ramifications OF having sex ?

Why is this relevant? I could ask "Why are they (smoking) if they're not ready for the ramifications OF (smoking) ?" Is that relevant to the legality of cancer surgery or treatments?

 

[BirdinHand]

not more and there are long term mental damages and sometimes physical damage as well from abortion - its not a 30 minute play date at an abortion clinic and go home happy you know

I think everyone would ideally want ZERO unplanned pregnancies and ZERO unwanted pregnancies .... can we all agree on that ?

Abortion isn’t just used for unplanned and unwanted pregnancies.

Abortion is a medical procedure. I mind my own business when it comes to what medical procedures others feel they need.

Why can’t you?

 

[AGENT J]

FYI EVERY baby ever born has a financial impact on family - every single one - that argument holds no water

this is factually false twice
1.) everysingle baby ever born does not have a financial impact on a family since that's subjective
2.) and if it does hold an impact that impact/choice always holds water regardless again of your subjective feelings

but thanks for proving that you have no idea about this topic and how it words

why do women get abortions? (outside rape/incest/health of mother)

endless reasons

so we go back to the question - why are they having sex if they're not ready for the ramifications OF having sex ?

easy because of the basic fact that consent to sex is not consenting to giving birth . . . .

 

[weaver2]

nobody has ever said in these 15 pages that "only the fetus has value" not once

There is not quote that says "only the fetus has value" but the pro-life argument is that the fetus has a right to be born that supersedes the rights of the woman to make a decision about what is best for her family, her partner, her children and her parents. The belief, that even in low income families there is a fetal right to life that is is greater than the right of already born children in the family not to be forced into poverty by an additional child, is frequently expressed.

I am pro-life, I favor that decision no matter the circumstance.

pro-life is all about saving the unborn human.

A child isn't a choice.

It is murder. It is killing a living human being created by God.

You 100% define "need" different than pro-lifers since almost all abortions are elective.

but really, all of the words and labeling is used by the left to sugar coat that they support a woman's ability to have her unborn baby killed in the womb one side supports that, one side doesn't

 

[Scrabaholic]

There are 330 million American's and how many commit crimes ever year? to say an unborn might be bad/good we don't know that's true but by far there are more good people than bad - you disagree?

That isn't citing your source. BTW, there is not supposed to be an apostrophe after American when it's a plural word.

it doesn't matter % of men who have custody - 85% of child support is paid by men, they have no choice and your side believes in choice and not forcing people to do things, right ?

If 85% of single mothers have custody, then it makes sense that 85% of the fathers are paying support.

unless you're artificially inseminated ... you're going to need a man to get preggo ... a man whom you likely want to be financially responsible for the child but at the same time you want to have zero control over whether it lives or dies (abortion)

am I right ?

Me, personally? No, you are not right.

I'd argue we are vastly more free than many countries and more free than Canada in many ways. You can't kill unborn in many states that's true - and that's a GOOD thing. I'm sorry Canada doesn't value its unborn

The US doesn't value it's women. I love my country. There's no place I'd rather live.

 

[DrewPaul]

There is not quote that says "only the fetus has value" but the pro-life argument is that the fetus has a right to be born that supersedes the rights of the woman to make a decision about what is best for her family, her partner, her children and her parents. The belief, that even in low income families there is a fetal right to life that is is greater than the right of already born children in the family not to be forced into poverty by an additional child, is frequently expressed.

Its news to me we have a right not to be forced into poverty due to our own decisions.

 

[hecatmoggie]

Why is this relevant? I could ask "Why are they (smoking) if they're not ready for the ramifications OF (smoking) ?" Is that relevant to the legality of cancer surgery or treatments?

because we're talking about a living human unborn deserving of life and killing it - and remember we have many prenatal protection laws in place that identify the need to protect unborn life

 

[Gordy327]

because we're talking about a living human unborn deserving of life and killing it - and remember we have many prenatal protection laws in place that identify the need to protect unborn life

Why does it deserve life? Who says?

 

[hecatmoggie]

Abortion isn’t just used for unplanned and unwanted pregnancies.

Abortion is a medical procedure. I mind my own business when it comes to what medical procedures others feel they need.

Why can’t you?

You're right - and there SHOULD have been a compromise years ago to allow abortion for incest/rape/health of mother and ban all the others that were done for convenience

I'm part of a progressive society. I understand that people's actions have consequences and they affect others almost always. That's why I cannot say "well allow all the illegals and mind my own business" or "allow all the drug use and mind my own business" etc etc

Its a social issue on a big scale - we don't allow killing of innocent life in the USA along with many other things that are not allowed. That killing unborn life was allowed was a huge error by the Supreme Court and has now been overturned and States are deciding and as time goes on, more and more states will ban the killing of unborn life IMO

 

[Gordy327]

You're right - and there SHOULD have been a compromise years ago to allow abortion for incest/rape/health of mother and ban all the others that were done for convenience

I'm part of a progressive society. I understand that people's actions have consequences and they affect others almost always. That's why I cannot say "well allow all the illegals and mind my own business" or "allow all the drug use and mind my own business" etc etc

Its a social issue on a big scale - we don't allow killing of innocent life in the USA along with many other things that are not allowed. That killing unborn life was allowed was a huge error by the Supreme Court and has now been overturned and States are deciding and as time goes on, more and more states will ban the killing of unborn life IMO

Restricting abortion is nor being progressive. If anything, it's regressive.

 

[hecatmoggie]

this is factually false twice
1.) everysingle baby ever born does not have a financial impact on a family since that's subjective
2.) and if it does hold an impact that impact/choice always holds water regardless again of your subjective feelings

but thanks for proving that you have no idea about this topic and how it words

ok I'm open to being wrong - tell me/show me how a newborn baby injected into a family doesn't cost more money every month - I'm listening

endless reasons

easy because of the basic fact that consent to sex is not consenting to giving birth . . . .

oh yes it does - consenting to sex absolutely equals consenting to the possibly of pregnancy

again, its like tossing a newborn into the snow and arguing that you are not responsible for its death - that's absurd isn't it ?

actions = consequences = personal responsibility

everyone with few exceptions knows sex can equal pregnancy

 

[BirdinHand]

You're right - and there SHOULD have been a compromise years ago to allow abortion for incest/rape/health of mother and ban all the others that were done for convenience

I'm part of a progressive society. I understand that people's actions have consequences and they affect others almost always. That's why I cannot say "well allow all the illegals and mind my own business" or "allow all the drug use and mind my own business" etc etc

Its a social issue on a big scale - we don't allow killing of innocent life in the USA along with many other things that are not allowed. That killing unborn life was allowed was a huge error by the Supreme Court and has now been overturned and States are deciding and as time goes on, more and more states will ban the killing of unborn life IMO

Abortion existed well before the Supreme Court ruled on Roe - abortion existed well before there was a Supreme Court or even a United States.

Abortion will continue to exist even if every state in the US decides to make it illegal (which will never happen).

All that will happen if abortion is made illegal is that it will move back to 'back alley' medical care and more women will die.

But to the zealots, that will be perfectly acceptable. They've never cared about life, they care about control and power.

 

[hecatmoggie]

That isn't citing your source. BTW, there is not supposed to be an apostrophe after American when it's a plural word.

you want me to cite population and number of guns? please

If 85% of single mothers have custody, then it makes sense that 85% of the fathers are paying support.

true - and force them men to give $$$ vs giving them choice - right ?

Me, personally? No, you are not right

you have another way for women to get preggo? immaculate conception I guess ?

The US doesn't value it's women. I love my country. There's no place I'd rather live.

fantastic, I love patriotism truly I do

I disagree, women in the USA have many advantages over women in many other countries BECAUSE we value them. Many states value unborn's too. It doesn't have to be one or the other you know

 

[hecatmoggie]

Why does it deserve life? Who says?

society says it, our Constitution grants it, our Supreme Court rules on it

we have many laws protecting unborn life


what we see is one side saying its ok to kill the unborn life - the other side is saying no, its not ok to kill the unborn life, its valuable, precious, deserving of life and killing it is barbaric

there will never be an agreement, one side simply doesn't value that life and the other does. There could have been some kind of compromise IMO but that's long gone now.

as the person stated above, violent war is what their side will resort to in order to get their way and that's it, bottom line ... that's how polarizing it is

 

[hecatmoggie]

Restricting abortion is nor being progressive. If anything, it's regressive.

noun - the process of developing or moving gradually towards a more advanced state.

we disagree on which way is progress but absolutely to me and many American's banning abortion IS progress

 

[hecatmoggie]

Abortion existed well before the Supreme Court ruled on Roe - abortion existed well before there was a Supreme Court or even a United States.

Abortion will continue to exist even if every state in the US decides to make it illegal (which will never happen).

All that will happen if abortion is made illegal is that it will move back to 'back alley' medical care and more women will die.

But to the zealots, that will be perfectly acceptable. They've never cared about life, they care about control and power.

is there a better place to kill a baby than a back alley?

you're right, abortion has always happened as has many other kinds of ways to kill human life but you wouldn't lobby to allow legal killings just because they've always happened would you ?

 

[Gordy327]

noun - the process of developing or moving gradually towards a more advanced state.

we disagree on which way is progress but absolutely to me and many American's banning abortion IS progress

Nope. Banning abortion restricts or limits women's rights and autonomy, which is a regressive trait.

 

[hecatmoggie]

Nope. Banning abortion restricts or limits women's rights and autonomy, which is a regressive trait.

banning abortion protects unborn life which is very much progressive

 

[Gordy327]

is there a better place to kill a baby than a back alley?

you're right, abortion has always happened as has many other kinds of ways to kill human life but you wouldn't lobby to allow legal killings just because they've always happened would you ?

A clean, staffed, and regulated clinic is preferable. But restricting abortion rights will only lead to back alley abortion and increased risk of harm for the woman. There is historical precedent for this too. That doesn't seem very progressive either.

 

[Gordy327]

banning abortion protects unborn life which is very much progressive

Restricting individual rights is not progressive. It's closer to fascist.

 

[BirdinHand]

is there a better place to kill a baby than a back alley?

you're right, abortion has always happened as has many other kinds of ways to kill human life but you wouldn't lobby to allow legal killings just because they've always happened would you ?

Abortion is not murder, no matter how many times you repeat it.

We get it - as a zealot, you want to control women and punish them for being sexual beings. You've made that very clear.

Power and control. No more, no less.

Zealots want the power to control women's reproductive choices so that they can force women to act in a way that they approve. Weak and insecure men have relied on power and control for the course of history to maintain their status in society. The thought of not being able to control other people terrifies them.