[W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Utilitarianism does not justify murder, any argument to utilitarianism is irrelevant

Are our rights 'utilitarian?' You know...life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness? Nope...they are morally endowed by the rights recognized in our Constitution. And the unborn's life cannot morally be protected at the expense of the mother who is present and already protected by that Const. It's not possible to protect both equally and as God has stated, He values women more than the unborn.

I'm good with that.

 

[Serenity]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Would you abduct and murder hookers and runaways? Do you believe that’s wrong? Why do you oppose the right of serial killers to use their body to abduct and kill people? Their body their choice.

I'd appreciate if if you didn't attempt to engage me in discussion with such idiocy. Let me be clear. I do not in any way shape or form wish to be associated with any of the extremist views in this thread. Yours included.

 

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

So if pregnancy were 100% safe and we had a 100K a year social safety net and there was 10 trillion dollars budgeted for the foster care system and no waiting to be adopted would you support a 100% ban on abortion?

No, since that is a fantasy and abortion remains a moral choice based on all the things I've mentioned. No woman should have to suffer the pain and agony and damage of pregnancy/childbirth against her will.

I could mention that your trillion $$ came from us taxpayers and I object to that, unnecessarily also...but it was your 'utilitarian' example, so I'll let it go.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Are our rights 'utilitarian?' You know...life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness? Nope...they are morally endowed by the rights recognized in our Constitution. And the unborn's life cannot morally be protected at the expense of the mother who is present and already protected by that Const. It's not possible to protect both equally and as God has stated, He values women more than the unborn.

I'm good with that.

You keep referencing god, God has nothing to do with my argument, it is thus irrelevant.

You have no right to pursue life, liberty or pursuit of happiness by murder. That is utilitarianism, it is irrelevant. Plus any provision of any law that permits murder is illegitimate from the start

Plus you cannot show the founders intended that to mean abortion.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

No, since that is a fantasy and abortion remains a moral choice based on all the things I've mentioned. No woman should have to suffer the pain and agony and damage of pregnancy/childbirth against her will.

Oh, so all your utilitarian arguments are crap, you just think killing babies is acceptable.

So in fact you are openly against any form of morality

 

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

You keep referencing god, God has nothing to do with my argument, it is thus irrelevant.

You have no right to pursue life, liberty or pursuit of happiness by murder. That is utilitarianism, it is irrelevant.

Plus you cannot show the founders intended that to mean abortion.

It's not murder. You continually posting it doesnt make it true. Their justifications are moral...like for self-defense, war, etc...you just disagree.

And you cannot show that the founders intended to include the unborn. They did intend for individuals to have bodily sovereignty, self-determination, and personal liberty...which banning abortion would take from women. And they were very clear about that.

 

[AGENT J]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

No, the opposition to abortion is moral and not religious.

There is no such thing as moral perspective, morality is objective. If your perspective is immoral then you do not have a moral perspective.

You know your position is immoral because it’s utilitarian and not based on principles

Hey look another factual lie

Morals are subjective by definition

If you or anybody disagrees then simply give us a list of factual morals and prove it, thanks



Facts:
Morals are subjective
Abortion =/= murder

 

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Oh, so all your utilitarian arguments are crap, you just think killing babies is acceptable.

So in fact you are openly against any form of morality

That is not what I wrote, pain and suffering is not utilitarian...it is immoral to force that on people. The very idea of the govt acting on women physically against our will *for any reason* is appallingly immoral and non-utilitarian.

You offered the utilitarian criteria, not me.

 

[Dayton3]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

It's not possible to make having an abortion a criminal act because the rest of the Constitution protects the woman's rights that would be violated by such an amendment.

What would the legal basis be that would justify reducing women's rights? The laws that came after that amendment would still have to be Constitutional...or they would go to SCOTUS and be examined. Just like all the recent laws last yr...every one was blocked as unConstitutional and AFAIK, none has been enacted.

Doesn't matter. If something is added to the U.S. Constitution it is by definition "constitutional". Even the Supreme Court has no input on the matter at that point.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

That is not what I wrote, pain and suffering is not utilitarian...it is immoral to force that on people. The very idea of the govt acting on women physically against our will *for any reason* is appallingly immoral and non-utilitarian.

You offered the utilitarian criteria, not me.

No, I have not. You apparently can’t even use words or concepts within their normal accepted definitions.

Well you can, but doing so means ceding to me the immortality of the murder of the unborn, so you hide beyond flowery drivel that is meaningless

 

[AGENT J]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Because murder is wrong and home many kids are in the foster care system has zero relevance to this argument

The availability of charity is irrelevant, murder is wrong. You can’t go kill homeless people the nights the shelter beds are full

Your level on contribution to society is irrelevant, murder is evil.

Murder is the unjust taking of innocent human life.

Abortion is unjust as it is not justified by moral necesity. An unborn baby cannot act in a manner of moral culpability and is thus innocent. Any reference to any civil law contrary to this argument is irrelevant

Utilitarianism does not justify murder and is thus irrelevant

Medical reasons=utilitarianism = unjust= murder

Utilitarianism does not justify murder, any argument to utilitarianism is irrelevant

You keep referencing god, God has nothing to do with my argument, it is thus irrelevant.

You have no right to pursue life, liberty or pursuit of happiness by murder. That is utilitarianism, it is irrelevant. Plus any provision of any law that permits murder is illegitimate from the start

Plus you cannot show the founders intended that to mean abortion.

Hey guess what . .. after all those posted lies and or references to murder . . . fact remains abortion =/= murder :lamo

If you or anybody else disagrees simply present one fact that makes them equal . .. one . . . thanks!

 

[Dayton3]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

No, since that is a fantasy and abortion remains a moral choice based on all the things I've mentioned. No woman should have to suffer the pain and agony and damage of pregnancy/childbirth against her will.

Why not?

 

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Doesn't matter. If something is added to the U.S. Constitution it is by definition "constitutional". Even the Supreme Court has no input on the matter at that point.

But any laws made under that amendment still cannot violate the protections/rights ensured by the other amendments. And women are protected under several amendments that would prevent laws criminalizing them having abortions.

So the laws would be challenged in the courts and SCOTUS *would* decide.

 

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

No, I have not. You apparently can’t even use words or concepts within their normal accepted definitions.

Well you can, but doing so means ceding to me the immortality of the murder of the unborn, so you hide beyond flowery drivel that is meaningless

So in other words, you ran out of dialog from your cult? It's very telling...and illuminating about your cult...that you describe the pain and suffering of women as "meaningless flowery drivel."

Thanks for that anyway.

 

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Why not?

It is immoral.

 

[Serenity]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

It is immoral.

It's sad that you actually have to explain that.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

So in other words, you ran out of dialog from your cult? It's very telling...and illuminating about your cult...that you describe the pain and suffering of women as "meaningless flowery drivel."

Thanks for that anyway.

Acting In a moral and good manner often carries pain and suffering with it.

Doing evil usually brings (at least short term) benefit. No one would follow the evil path if it brought only misery.

 

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

It's sad that you actually have to explain that.

Very sad.

 

[Dayton3]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

It is immoral.

Why? I'm not taking a simple pronouncement of "immorality" by you to be true.

 

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Acting In a moral and good manner often carries pain and suffering with it.

Doing evil usually brings (at least short term) benefit. No one would follow the evil path if it brought only misery.

By choice...chosen sacrifice. The individual or organization that decides to cause pain and suffering to others in their own interests is immoral.

 

[Dayton3]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

But any laws made under that amendment still cannot violate the protections/rights ensured by the other amendments. And women are protected under several amendments that would prevent laws criminalizing them having abortions.

So the laws would be challenged in the courts and SCOTUS *would* decide.

Lursa, if Americans wanted to they could reimplement slavery and override the 13th Amendment. Though in truth the 13th Amendment allows slavery under certain conditions (punishment for a crime).

 

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Why? I'm not taking a simple pronouncement of "immorality" by you to be true.

I've just discussed it in-depth. Feel free to respond with any counter-arguments. Or consensus :lol:

Posts 285, 283,281, 273, 276, 266, 252, 259, 247, 281

 

[Lursa]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Lursa, if Americans wanted to they could reimplement slavery and override the 13th Amendment. Though in truth the 13th Amendment allows slavery under certain conditions (punishment for a crime).

Please explain how it could reassert the 13th over any Americans without violating all (or many) their other rights protected under the Constitution? I'm talking about if laws were created...how would they pass SCOTUS scrutiny? Just claiming they are 'based on the newly reassertd 13th' doesnt prevent court challenges where their actual Constitutionality will be examined.

And in your example, it's a very narrow window AFTER due process has been applied.

 

[Dayton3]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

Please explain how it could reassert the 13th over any Americans without violating all (or many) their other rights protected under the Constitution? .

It was my understanding when I studied constitutional law in college that if something is SPECIFICALLY ALLOWED or FORBIDDEN in the U.S. Constitution that you CANNOT override that by inferences made elsewhere in the Constitution.

Thus, states cannot nullify the 2nd Amendment by inferring that they have the authority to do so based on their reserved powers in the 9th Amendment.

 

[minnie616]

re: [W:628]"The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave"

No, since that is a fantasy and abortion remains a moral choice based on all the things I've mentioned. No woman should have to suffer the pain and agony and damage of pregnancy/childbirth against her will.

I could mention that your trillion $$ came from us taxpayers and I object to that, unnecessarily also...but it was your 'utilitarian' example, so I'll let it go.

Why not?

Having her body used against her will is taking away her bodily autonomy. It is also
the very essence of slavery..