(W:#403)The trial of Travis and Gregory McMichael, and William "Roddie" Bryan, for felony murder in the killing of Ahmaud Arbery

[rahl]

I posted the relevant code detailing the crime. Nothing says “upon complaint of the property owner” or anything similar. It’s possible something in the procedural rules requires a complaint.

But my point is that it doesn’t require a complaint to be a crime. Whether the crime is prosecuted is a separate matter. So IF someone is seen entering someone else’s property AND it’s marked, or the person steals or causes damage, THEN, an arrest can be made on the spot, including a citizen’s arrest. You don’t have to contact the owner first.

But that’s not the case here.

It has to be a felony for a citizens arrest to apply in the state of GA. Even had they witnessed him entering a residence, which they didn't, they would still not be able to stop or detain him. They could only call the police.

 

[rahl]

Doesn't matter if it would have been a felony, what matters is a person pursued a person in which the the person had a probable and reasonable suspicion of a felony.

nope. they had exactly no reasonable suspicion of a crime. They illegally detained and then murdered Arbery.

 

[pinqy]

It has to be a felony for a citizens arrest to apply in the state of GA. Even had they witnessed him entering a residence, which they didn't, they would still not be able to stop or detain him. They could only

It has to be a felony for a citizens arrest to apply in the state of GA. Even had they witnessed him entering a residence, which they didn't, they would still not be able to stop or detain him. They could only call the police.

GA Code § 17-4-60
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

In other words, if it’s a felony, you don’t have to see it, just have reasonable and probable suspicion that a fleeing person committed one. If it is not a felony, you have to actually see it or hear it. There is no way to read that law to mean citizen’s arrests only apply to felonies.

 

[ASHES]

64 potential jurors reached, should be able to pick 16 from that pretty quickly, and get into opening statements.

 

[Lursa]

GA Code § 17-4-60
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

In other words, if it’s a felony, you don’t have to see it, just have reasonable and probable suspicion that a fleeing person committed one. If it is not a felony, you have to actually see it or hear it. There is no way to read that law to mean citizen’s arrests only apply to felonies.

How would they know what the offense is, period?

And again, there was no visible stolen property (shorts/T-shirt/construction site). What reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion of felony was there?

Here's another, interpreted by a lawyer:

"In the killing of Mr. Arbery, someone called 911 beforehand to say that a man was inside a house under construction. If that man was Mr. Arbery, and he was there without permission but stole nothing, then he could have been charged with trespassing, a misdemeanor, said Lawrence J. Zimmerman, the president of the Georgia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. That means, Mr. Zimmerman said, the men who went after him would not have been authorized to give chase.​

Force can only be used to prevent a violent felony, Mr. Zimmerman said, adding, “What is not lawful is, you can’t detain somebody and then use force.”​

​

The Citizen’s Arrest Law Cited in Arbery’s Killing Dates Back to the Civil War

Georgia has allowed its residents to arrest one another since 1863. But after the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery, critics are calling for such laws to be repealed.

www.nytimes.com

 

[pinqy]

How would they know what the offense is, period?

And again, there was no visible stolen property (shorts/T-shirt/construction site). What reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion of felony was there?

Here's another, interpreted by a lawyer:

"In the killing of Mr. Arbery, someone called 911 beforehand to say that a man was inside a house under construction. If that man was Mr. Arbery, and he was there without permission but stole nothing, then he could have been charged with trespassing, a misdemeanor, said Lawrence J. Zimmerman, the president of the Georgia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. That means, Mr. Zimmerman said, the men who went after him would not have been authorized to give chase.​

Force can only be used to prevent a violent felony, Mr. Zimmerman said, adding, “What is not lawful is, you can’t detain somebody and then use force.”​

​

The Citizen’s Arrest Law Cited in Arbery’s Killing Dates Back to the Civil War

Georgia has allowed its residents to arrest one another since 1863. But after the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery, critics are calling for such laws to be repealed.

www.nytimes.com

I’m not sure what you think that has to do with my post. I was disputing the claim that citizen’s arrests could only be applied towards felonies. That is not true, they can also be applied to misdemeanors if seen/heard. Since Mr Arbery didn’t commit any crime at all, he certainly wasn’t subject to arrest.

 

[Lursa]

I’m not sure what you think that has to do with my post. I was disputing the claim that citizen’s arrests could only be applied towards felonies. That is not true, they can also be applied to misdemeanors if seen/heard. Since Mr Arbery didn’t commit any crime at all, he certainly wasn’t subject to arrest.

Your post correcting Rahl didnt read that way but I really dont care anymore.

Your current post is accurate as I've read and understand the law. And had it explained by a lawyer. Several of us have tried to emphasize what I bolded many times.

 

[ASHES]

Today should wrap up jury selection, as they go through the 65 qualified potential jurors until they have 12+4. After that will be more motions arguments, with opening statements tomorrow. Bryan's attorney, Gough, is not satisfied with the diversity on the jury, he thinks there aren't enough "Bubba's" for Bryan to get a fair trial, and he will be attempting to sever the cases again.

Proceedings should begin shortly, although I don't know how much will be streamed because they do not stream individual jury questioning.

 

[ASHES]

On the record. Gough has 6 matters to discuss with the court this morning.

1) Lack of Bubbas and Joe Six-Packs in the qualified jury pool
2) Juror 219, says there was an undisclosed tiktok account with up to 10 dance tributes to Arbery by that potential juror
3) He wants to inquire of the entire panel if any questions they have been asked if they believe any of their answers were incomplete or untruthful
4) Motion in limine regarding exclusion of evidence relating to conspiracy after the fact, specifically a phone call by the McMichaels' referring to Bryan as an "ally" (says admitting it would put him in a difficult position), says the jury selection is contentious between defenses
5) Motion to sever, he will wait for that until a ruling on issue 4
6) Wants 60 minutes for defense counsels to confer on keeping or striking any individual juror

The defenses and the state will now argue those issues to the court.

 

[rahl]

GA Code § 17-4-60
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

In other words, if it’s a felony, you don’t have to see it, just have reasonable and probable suspicion that a fleeing person committed one. If it is not a felony, you have to actually see it or hear it. There is no way to read that law to mean citizen’s arrests only apply to felonies.

yes, they do as the statute you just cited shows. Arbery was jogging in a neighborhood. He had not committed any crime that was witnessed by either man following him. as such reasonable suspicion of a felony is required in order to affect a citizens arrest. Which is why the attempted arrest was unlawful from the start.

 

[SkyFox76]

Damn, how is it some of us have been waiting on these trials and now both are going to be going on simultaneously.

 

[pinqy]

yes, they do as the statute you just cited shows. Arbery was jogging in a neighborhood. He had not committed any crime that was witnessed by either man following him. as such reasonable suspicion of a felony is required in order to affect a citizens arrest. Which is why the attempted arrest was unlawful from the start.

Since Arbery didn’t commit any crime at all, citizens arrest doesn’t apply at all. I’m only talking about the law and NOT how it applies to Arbery, because it doesn’t.

The law clearly states that for a citizen’s arrest, the offense has to be in the immediate knowledge of the private person, but if the offense is a felony, then only reasonable/probable suspicion of an escaping person is necessary.

“If a felony” clearly separates the two conditions. For ALL offenses, an arrest is allowed if in immediate knowledge. For felonies only, it’s allowed with the lesser standard of reasonable suspicion that the person is escaping after committing a felony.

If arrest was only allowed for felonies, then the qualifier of “if a felony” would not be necessary there.

 

[ASHES]

Damn, how is it some of us have been waiting on these trials and now both are going to be going on simultaneously.

Rittenhouse should end first though. Arbery case is complicated with three defenses.

 

[SkyFox76]

Rittenhouse should end first though. Arbery case is complicated with three defenses.

I hope so. Yesterday I had on 2 tvs, internet and phone because my feeds kept screwing up. I might have to go to Walmart where they have 10 TV's mounted and tell them don't bother me, I'm in my zone.

 

[ASHES]

After successfully seating 12 jurors on Wednesday, the judge found intentional discrimination during jury selection by the defense, when they struck 11 out of 12 African American jurors. 1 of the 12 seated jurors is black.

 

[SkyFox76]

After successfully seating 12 jurors on Wednesday, the judge found intentional discrimination during jury selection by the defense, when they struck 11 out of 12 African American jurors. 1 of the 12 seated jurors is black.

There's just no hiding the prejudice. But, please tell me this delays the starting date!

 

[Nickyjo]

It does matter, he's dead and maybe it didn't need to happen. You don't bring your fist to a man with a gun ..common sense 101. He could have run in a multitude of directions and possibly have survived, his hostility and aggression IMHO cost him his life.

And their hostility and aggression might cost them their freedom.

 

[Nickyjo]

You shouldn't be so confident in your knowledge of the law, especially as it seems you have read none of it.

First, it does not matter if it is an unoccupied or incomplete dwelling. It does not matter if it is another kind of building or structure:

Georgia’s felony burglary statute
§16-7-1. Burglary

Home under construction qualifies for felony burglary purposes.
Smith v. State, 226 Ga. App. 9 (GA Ct. App. 1997)

Second, how do you know that they had "no knowledge" of any crime committed on any day by Arbery? The senior McMichael's lived right across the street from the house. The police department but the owner in touch with McMichael's and the owner had video on more than one occasion of Arbery in the house. A video clearly shows Arbery exiting the house, and running or fleeing it before the McMichael's were in pursuit.

Third, it does not matter that Arbery didn't find anything to steal or didn't take anything, if McMichael had a reasonable and probable suspicion (which is a lessor state of knowledge) to infer that was Arbery's purpose then that is sufficient. (Remember, McMichael before retirement had been an investigator on the illegal gun charge case involving Arbery).

Finally, of course the videos show a crime. Illegal entry without permission. That Arbery did it more than once is easily a basis of reasonable suspicion.

Here is the full set of laws laws you need to review so as to revise and inform your confidence:


Georgia’s citizens arrest statute:
§17-4-60 Grounds for arrest

Georgia’s justification statute (including use of force in making lawful arrest):
§16-3-20. Justification

Georgia’s felony burglary statute
§16-7-1. Burglary

Georgia’s aggravated assault statute:
§16-5-21. Aggravated assault

Georgia’s simple assault statute:
§ 16-5-20. Simple assault

Georgia’s open carry statute:
§ 16-11-126. Having or carrying handguns, long guns, or other weapons; license requirement; exceptions for homes, motor vehicles, private property, and other locations and conditions

Home under construction qualifies for felony burglary purposes.
Smith v. State, 226 Ga. App. 9 (GA Ct. App. 1997)

Assault requires an unlawful act.
Woodruff v. Woodruff, 22 Ga. 237 (GA Sup. Ct. 1857)

How about calling 911 and letting trained people who know what they are doing deal with the situation?

 

[ASHES]

Probably dealing with the jury situation and motions first, then opening statements should begin.

 

[ASHES]

Court is in session.

 

[ASHES]

Beginning with State's motions. First, a motion to exclude Travis's use of force experts.

 

[ASHES]

Defense for Travis responding to state's motion to exclude.

 

[ASHES]

Gough, Bryan's attorney, arguing against the state's motion to exclude use of force experts by Travis.

 

[SkyFox76]

Are they on lunch?

 

[ASHES]

Looks like it, but they'll probably be back soon. It's about an hour from their usual lunch break.