[W:40] More Hamas propaganda form a couple morons

[redbeer]

They are only nominally democratic, they practice aphatied, which is morally reprehensible, and most of our problems in the middle east come directly from the fact that we support Isreal I stead of human rights.

Keep on believing what they spoon feed you....lol.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Keep on believing what they spoon feed you....lol.

Those are facts.

Your silly retort is not a refutation.

 

[redbeer]

Those are facts.

Your silly retort is not a refutation.

They are not facts, just talking points of those you chose to listen and follow, then come here and parrot.....that's all.

 

[NolanVoyd]

They are not facts, just talking points of those you chose to listen and follow, then come here and parrot.....that's all.

Utter nonsense.

You are just deflecting. No attempt at refutation because I proved my point and you know it.

 

[Elmo]

Do you understand that as long as no one around the whole world gives Israel a better alternative, criticizing Israel is pointless? How can Israel be "better" if there is nothing better that could have been done?

Another Gaza Hospital Hit by Israeli Strike; Four Dead, 40 Hurt

One patient and three visitors die after tank shell hits third floor of building that houses intensive care unit and operating rooms.

www.nbcnews.com

Are you seriously suggesting that "nothing better could have been done" than attacking this hospital? You can't imagine anything "better" than 4 innocent dead and 40 innocent injured? I asked Apocalypse what the military value of this strike was, and he has so far refused to answer. Do you know what the military value was? I don't think there was any value. I think those people died because the IDF wanted pure petty vengeance. They didn't know where the Hamas soldiers ran off to, so they picked a target to send a message.

Good question:

1. Economically - basically cut all Hamas income routes and assets, and put pressure on Hamas supporters as Iran
2. Using the people of Gaza - explain to them, and their relatives that live in the west, that Hamas is the root of their problems and they must deal with them for their life to be better

#1 is a fair request. It's easier said than done though.

I'm especially glad you brought up #2, because it highlights the ONLY path I can see to actually resolve this conflict. Israel will NEVER defeat Hamas with retaliatory strikes. You NEED to convince the millions of ordinary Palestinian people to turn against Hamas. No amount of "explaining" from the international community is going to accomplish that when they live in constant terror of Israeli bombs. When you kill their family and friends, you just drive them into the arms of Hamas, because they see Hamas as their only way to fight back.

To be clear, Hamas IS the root cause of the conflict. So when the Palestinian people react by giving them more support, they are making an incorrect choice. But you must admit, it is an entirely predictable and human reaction. When people are attacked, they lash out in any way they can. Big picture and long term implications get ignored. This is why the conflict will never end until one side chooses to rise above that basic reaction. I think that long term, Israel will be better off if you're willing to do that.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Another Gaza Hospital Hit by Israeli Strike; Four Dead, 40 Hurt

One patient and three visitors die after tank shell hits third floor of building that houses intensive care unit and operating rooms.

www.nbcnews.com

Are you seriously suggesting that "nothing better could have been done" than attacking this hospital? You can't imagine anything "better" than 4 innocent dead and 40 innocent injured? I asked Apocalypse what the military value of this strike was, and he has so far refused to answer. Do you know what the military value was? I don't think there was any value. I think those people died because the IDF wanted pure petty vengeance. They didn't know where the Hamas soldiers ran off to, so they picked a target to send a message.

#1 is a fair request. It's easier said than done though.

I'm especially glad you brought up #2, because it highlights the ONLY path I can see to actually resolve this conflict. Israel will NEVER defeat Hamas with retaliatory strikes. You NEED to convince the millions of ordinary Palestinian people to turn against Hamas. No amount of "explaining" from the international community is going to accomplish that when they live in constant terror of Israeli bombs. When you kill their family and friends, you just drive them into the arms of Hamas, because they see Hamas as their only way to fight back.

To be clear, Hamas IS the root cause of the conflict. So when the Palestinian people react by giving them more support, they are making an incorrect choice. But you must admit, it is an entirely predictable and human reaction. When people are attacked, they lash out in any way they can. Big picture and long term implications get ignored. This is why the conflict will never end until one side chooses to rise above that basic reaction. I think that long term, Israel will be better off if you're willing to do that.

The thing is though, Hammas did not rise out of nothing and cause the problems. Hammas is a reaction to Isreals oppression and Brutality.

In order to solve the problem the conditions from which Hammas rose need to be resolved. Palestinians need relief from oppression, self determination, etc. Exactly what everyone wants and deserves.

So it ends up in a catch 22.

The way to end Hammas is to end the conditions that spawned them, but Isreal says it won't end the oppression until Hammas is gone.

 

[Mika-El]

I certainly thought so.

Apperantly many here think that hiding bombs in a school is good enough moral justification to destroy the school with children present, killing many of them.

Sick stuff.

No one on th is thread has said that. You have. You do that to deflect from the actual issue which is why Hamas is hiding bombs in the school. You fool no one with your biases and selectivity as to what you will criticize.

 

[Mika-El]

The thing is though, Hammas did not rise out of nothing and cause the problems. Hammas is a reaction to Isreals oppression and Brutality.

In order to solve the problem the conditions from which Hammas rose need to be resolved. Palestinians need relief from oppression, self determination, etc. Exactly what everyone wants and deserves.

So it ends up in a catch 22.

The way to end Hammas is to end the conditions that spawned them, but Isreal says it won't end the oppression until Hammas is gone.

Again you engage in your bias analysis that Hamas is terrorist and does what it does because Israel made it do what it does. Your blame it on Israel shtick is nonsensical. Hamas chose to be non violent for many years and when it did, its sister charities build roads, schools, mosques, hospitals. Its when Hamas chose terrorism it then decided to blow up those very things and kill its own people for pursuing peace with Israel. Hamas turned its people into pawns not Israel. Hamas uses them as fodder not Israel.

Your excuses for Hamas not only show your bias against Israel but against peaceful Palestinians who are captive to Hamas and all the other terrorist organizations claiming to speak for them or people like you claiming to speak for them and champion the very people that imprison them and strip them of their rights. You clearly have never been to Gaza. You have no clue how Hamas treats its people.

 

[Mika-El]

The way to end Hammas is to end the conditions that spawned them, but Isreal says it won't end the oppression until Hammas is gone.

The "conditions that spawned them" are your not so coded reference to Israel existing as a Jewish state. State so. The couched and coded references fool no one.

 

[Mika-El]

Another Gaza Hospital Hit by Israeli Strike; Four Dead, 40 Hurt

One patient and three visitors die after tank shell hits third floor of building that houses intensive care unit and operating rooms.

www.nbcnews.com

Israel will NEVER defeat Hamas with retaliatory strikes. You NEED to convince the millions of ordinary Palestinian people to turn against Hamas.

1. All Israelis would agree with you.
2. No Israeli believes the retaliatory strikes by themselves will end Hamas-they are designed to contain, prevent and discourage Hamas attacks as they are happening-no Israeli who has lived through all the years of this b.s. believes for a second they can simply blow up Hamas.
3. Its easy too easy for you to say-you need to convince millions of ordinary Palestinain people to turn against Hamas-that is what is called a platitude, its bloody obvious. Its easy to say it but how.

By the way I am agreeing with you and not giving you a hard time. I am asking how.

You have any idea how to convince Palestinians to tell Hamas or the PA to do what the IRA did? You think anyone right now anywhere in the Middle East Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, will say openly-stop the terror and recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Put down your terror so we can get to the peace table? Who? You know anyone? I am serious.

I was part of one of many volunteer peace groups in Israel who worked with Palestinians. We got along fine. We are both the equal enemy of Hamas, the PA, Islamic Jihad. No one in Israel is threatening to kill me for having tried reach out. No one. The other way around-you have any idea what Hamas does to people who question it. I have said it on this forum. One tactic is to shove a pole up the buttocks of the Palestinian who questions them, pull their innards out, and leave them to slowly die on full display.

You know what happens to a mother when someone comes to get their child to dig a tunnel or smuggle a weapon? Well? I do. I have seen the cut off body parts. You?

The real world aint that easy and believe me people on both sides are being traumatized no differently. I share your comment but I am saying its more complex then that Thanks and peace. Please do not take this as a mean response. You presented a balanced criticism. I appreciate it.

 

[Valaisee]

Are you seriously suggesting that "nothing better could have been done" than attacking this hospital? You can't imagine anything "better" than 4 innocent dead and 40 innocent injured? I asked Apocalypse what the military value of this strike was, and he has so far refused to answer. Do you know what the military value was? I don't think there was any value. I think those people died because the IDF wanted pure petty vengeance. They didn't know where the Hamas soldiers ran off to, so they picked a target to send a message.

I was referring to the recent conflict, your example happened 7 years ago. I didn't find any new information about this case so what I said earlier remains:

I only found an article where Israel officials claim weapons were stored near the hospital:

So I don't know, but as I said:

It is well known that Hamas and other terrorist use hospitals, schools, and civilian infrastructure in general to attack or store weapons. Therefore, even if there is no good evidence to back the claims, one cannot automatically assume the attack was a crime.

Even if this specific case is wrong, Israel didn't attack hospitals in the recent conflict so it already got better. Do you have a better alternative to what Israel did in the recent conflict?

I'm especially glad you brought up #2, because it highlights the ONLY path I can see to actually resolve this conflict. Israel will NEVER defeat Hamas with retaliatory strikes. You NEED to convince the millions of ordinary Palestinian people to turn against Hamas. No amount of "explaining" from the international community is going to accomplish that when they live in constant terror of Israeli bombs. When you kill their family and friends, you just drive them into the arms of Hamas, because they see Hamas as their only way to fight back.

To be clear, Hamas IS the root cause of the conflict. So when the Palestinian people react by giving them more support, they are making an incorrect choice. But you must admit, it is an entirely predictable and human reaction. When people are attacked, they lash out in any way they can. Big picture and long term implications get ignored. This is why the conflict will never end until one side chooses to rise above that basic reaction. I think that long term, Israel will be better off if you're willing to do that.

I don't agree that Israel, or anybody in the world, "needs" to convince the Palestinian. In general, the only one that "needs" to solve a problem in a specific society is the society itself.
Nevertheless, one can try to help, and I agree that Israel should try as hard as it can. Israel still needs to defend itself in the short term.

 

[NolanVoyd]

No one on th is thread has said that. You have. You do that to deflect from the actual issue which is why Hamas is hiding bombs in the school. You fool no one with your biases and selectivity as to what you will criticize.

Hammas is hiding bombs in schools because it makes Israel choose between morality and power.

They choose power everytime..

Fact. Hiding a bomb in a school is bad.

Fact. Destroying a school, children and all, because some asshole his a bomb in it, is ten times worse.

The biggest monster is the one that destroyed the school.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Again you engage in your bias analysis that Hamas is terrorist and does what it does because Israel made it do what it does. Your blame it on Israel shtick is nonsensical. Hamas chose to be non violent for many years and when it did, its sister charities build roads, schools, mosques, hospitals. Its when Hamas chose terrorism it then decided to blow up those very things and kill its own people for pursuing peace with Israel. Hamas turned its people into pawns not Israel. Hamas uses them as fodder not Israel.

Your excuses for Hamas not only show your bias against Israel but against peaceful Palestinians who are captive to Hamas and all the other terrorist organizations claiming to speak for them or people like you claiming to speak for them and champion the very people that imprison them and strip them of their rights. You clearly have never been to Gaza. You have no clue how Hamas treats its people.

I haven't made any excuses for Hammas.

Your hysterical and irrational response destroys your credibility.

Can you have a rational conversation.

One more chance.

 

[Mika-El]

Hammas is hiding bombs in schools because it makes Israel choose between morality and power.

They choose power everytime..

Fact. Hiding a bomb in a school is bad.

Fact. Destroying a school, children and all, because some asshole his a bomb in it, is ten times worse.

The biggest monster is the one that destroyed the school.

I of course ignored your childish personal remark.

Your above opinions are purely subjective with no reasoning behind them.

All you have done is make unilateral declarations professing your bias for Hamas.

The first statement though is the most idiotic of all of them.

You claim by placing innocent children in harms way knowing they will die because of what Hamas deliberately chooses to do, it and I quote :makes Israel choose between morality and power".

That makes no sense at all.

Israel chooses to shoot back to contain Hamas because it has a moral obligation to stop Hamas from killing Israelis AND Palestinian children.

Your comment is designed to justify Hamas using schools as launch zones, and relieving them of any moral responsibility for that.

For that reason you have reduced yourself to a Hamas apologist and not a very good one at that.

Let's be clear on one thing with your responses. "Hiding a bomb in a school is bad" is not the issue. Hamas deciding to use schools, hospitals, mosques, residential homes to store explosives and other weapons deliberately endangers its civilians. Shooting missiles from those same sites just increases the risk. Both show pre-meditated and deliberate intent to kill Palestinian civilians.

Your platitude "hiding a bob in school is bad" shows does not justify, apologize, white-wash, spin, excuse, what Hamas does. The fact you try down play what they do with such a purile platitude speaks loudly to your biases and contempt for Palestinians. You use them as a platform to spit at Israel. You make a mockery of their safety and lives.

 

[NolanVoyd]

The "conditions that spawned them" are your not so coded reference to Israel existing as a Jewish state. State so. The couched and coded references fool no one.

No Israel existing isn't the problem. The fact that they have oppressed and mistreated the Palestinians is the problem.

Israel can never have peace until the Palestinians have freedom, security From Isreal, and self determination.

This isn't unique to the middle east.

"I'd rather die on my feet then live on my knees" is a Mexican QUOTE but it applies to humans everywhere.

Israel will never have peace as long as they force Palestinians to live on their knees.

Fricken duh.

 

[NolanVoyd]

.You make unilateral declarations professing your bias for Hamas.

I don't even like Hammas.

I made that clear.

I am not going to talk to if you are just going to lie.

Get back to me if and when you think you can be honest about my position.

Until then, we are done.

I can't respond to liars.

 

[Mika-El]

I haven't made any excuses for Hammas.

Your hysterical and irrational response destroys your credibility.

Can you have a rational conversation.

One more chance.

I have responded directly to your words that justofy what Hamas does. You do not like it don't read it. Nolan Boyd do you really think you are in a position to patronize me and give me and I quote "one more chance"? Really? Lol. Yah that was rational.


How about this one you stated: "Hammas is hiding bombs in schools because it makes Israel choose between morality and power".

That is rational?

You've come on this board to justify Hamas deliberately placing its civilians in harms way and you want to give me one more chance to agree with you on that and pose you are rational for engaging in such rationalization of deliberately putting Palestinians at risk?

Lol.

 

[NolanVoyd]

I

How about this one you stated: "Hammas is hiding bombs in schools because it makes Israel choose between morality and power"

That is rational?
.

Rational, yes.

Moral. Absolutely not.

I made that perfectly clear.

The only thing more immoral is destroying the school, killing many of the kids, because some assholes hid bombs there.

You've come on this board to justify Hamas deliberately placing its civilians in harms way and you want to give me one more chance to agree with you on that and pose you are rational for engaging in such rationalization of deliberately putting Palestinians at risk

You are lying.

I have done no such thing. That is not why I came onto this board, nor is it what I have done here.

I don't bother with liars.

We are done unless you apologize for lying about me.

Your call.

 

[Mika-El]

No Israel existing isn't the problem. The fact that they have oppressed and mistreated the Palestinians is the problem.

Israel can never have peace until the Palestinians have freedom, security From Isreal, and self determination.

This isn't unique to the middle east.

"I'd rather die on my feet then live on my knees" is a Mexican QUOTE but it applies to humans everywhere.

Israel will never have peace as long as they force Palestinians to live on their knees.

Fricken duh.

The Muslims of Israel do not live on their knees and neither do the Palestinians on the West Bank. The Palestinians on the West Bank and gaza are not prevented from having a second state. Their choice is to only accept a peace solution where Israel turns into a Muslim state.

Your platitudes and I quote"until Palestinians have freedom, security from Israel, self determination", is code for when Israel becames a Miuslim state.

If Hamas and PA disarmed and recognized Israel as a Jewish state and agreed on that state side by side a Jewish state, living peacefully side by side and recognizing that state's right to be Jewish , there would be of course a second Palestinian state. No one is stopping Hamas or the PA from a second state. Israel however is not about to dismantle itself and turn itself into a Muslim state to create that second state.

So don't play it with the coded couched references. State your damn position-you do not think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, that it should be turned into a Muslim Palestinian state.

Or state Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state and until Hamas and the PA accept that fact and continue to call for its extinction and turning into a Muslim state, Israel can not and will not negotiate its dismantling or allow itself to be blown up by missiles.

The IRA was in the exact position the PA and Hamas were and theIRA chose to put down their arms, dennounced violence and the advocating of violence to take back Northern Ireland and then and only then the parties then were able to sit down at a table and peace was arrived at.

Israel tried twice to recognize a second Palestinian state . We now know directly from the words of Arafat himself that stated he lied and never had any intention of ever recognizing a Jewish state and bragged that he lied when he said he would saying it was a military tactic to stall to build up weapons until the day he had enough to destroy Israel.

Does your selective history acknowledge that?

Go on tell everyone how you think Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state where it is just like Palestinians could have a second state where they are on the West Bank and in Gaza. Go on say it. Say how if they did that and denounced their believe that Israel needs to be a Muslim state for Palestinians, and terror is a legitimate way to achieve that, then the IDF would be a moot point and g o back to their barraks.

Go on explain to everyone how rational you are that in this conflict its not rational to ask Israel to negotiate it ceasing to exist as the PA and Hamas want.

Go on. Or pretend that Hamas is innocent and has no chartar to kill not just Israeli Jews but Jews world wide. Go on explain how the death to Israel chants led by Abbas in their political assembly and the second highest leader in Hamas calling on Palestinians to chop of the heads and wage war with Jews world wide is rational and its irrational to point that out.

Go on. Tell me how its irrational not to agree with you telling us all Hamas's motives do not make it culpable for the killing of its own citizens, its for a greater cause, one in which it makes Israel do something. Go on, explain how it martyrs its people to make Israel do things.

Please share and call me irrational.

Lol.

 

[NolanVoyd]

The Muslims of Israel do not live on their knees and neither do the Palestinians on the West Bank. The Palestinians on the West Bank and gaza are not prevented from having a second state. Their choice is to only accept a peace solution where Israel turns into a Muslim state.

Your platitudes and I quote"until Palestinians have freedom, security from Israel, self determination", is code for when Israel becames a Miuslim state.

If Hamas and PA disarmed and recognized Israel as a Jewish state and agreed on that state side by side a Jewish state, living peacefully side by side and recognizing that state's right to be Jewish , there would be of course a second Palestinian state. No one is stopping Hamas or the PA from a second state. Israel however is not about to dismantle itself and turn itself into a Muslim state to create that second state.

So don't play it with the coded couched references. State your damn position-you do not think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, that it should be turned into a Muslim Palestinian state.

Or state Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state and until Hamas and the PA accept that fact and continue to call for its extinction and turning into a Muslim state, Israel can not and will not negotiate its dismantling or allow itself to be blown up by missiles.

The IRA was in the exact position the PA and Hamas were and theIRA chose to put down their arms, dennounced violence and the advocating of violence to take back Northern Ireland and then and only then the parties then were able to sit down at a table and peace was arrived at.

Israel tried twice to recognize a second Palestinian state . We now know directly from the words of Arafat himself that stated he lied and never had any intention of ever recognizing a Jewish state and bragged that he lied when he said he would saying it was a military tactic to stall to build up weapons until the day he had enough to destroy Israel.

Does your selective history acknowledge that?

Go on tell everyone how you think Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state where it is just like Palestinians could have a second state where they are on the West Bank and in Gaza. Go on say it. Say how if they did that and denounced their believe that Israel needs to be a Muslim state for Palestinians, and terror is a legitimate way to achieve that, then the IDF would be a moot point and g o back to their barraks.

Go on explain to everyone how rational you are that in this conflict its not rational to ask Israel to negotiate it ceasing to exist as the PA and Hamas want.

Go on. Or pretend that Hamas is innocent and has no chartar to kill not just Israeli Jews but Jews world wide. Go on explain how the death to Israel chants led by Abbas in their political assembly and the second highest leader in Hamas calling on Palestinians to chop of the heads and wage war with Jews world wide is rational and its irrational to point that out.

Go on. Tell me how its irrational not to agree with you telling us all Hamas's motives do not make it culpable for the killing of its own citizens, its for a greater cause, one in which it makes Israel do something. Go on, explain how it martyrs its people to make Israel do things.

Please share and call me irrational.

Lol.

See post 118

 

[Mika-El]

Rational, yes.

Moral. Absolutely not.

I made that perfectly clear.

The only thing more immoral is destroying the school, killing many of the kids, because some assholes hid bombs there.




You are lying.

I have done no such thing. That is not why I came onto this board, nor is it what I have done here.

I don't bother with liars.

We are done unless you apologize for lying about me.

Your call.

Your little snit fit is laughable. I have repeated your words back to you. You now characterize my pointing out why I find your words stupid lies.

I repeat it again you are on this board to apologize for Hamas.

I repeat you do not believe Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state otherwise prove me a liar, state Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state and Hamas, the PA by refusing to accept as a Jewish state of Israel and calling for a Muslim state to replace Israel engage it in a war challenging its very right to exist. Go on prove me wrong.

Next you now want to come on this forum and state boldly, "hiding bombs in schools" is rational.

Your apologies for what Hamas does is so blatant as to be absurd.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Your little snit fit is laughable. I have repeated your words back to you. You now characterize my pointing out why I find your words stupid lies.

I repeat it again you are on this board to apologize for Hamas.

I repeat you do not believe Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state otherwise prove me a liar, state Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state and Hamas, the PA by refusing to accept as a Jewish state of Israel and calling for a Muslim state to replace Israel engage it in a war challenging its very right to exist. Go on prove me wrong.

Next you now want to come on this forum and state boldly, "hiding bombs in schools" is rational.

Your apologies for what Hamas does is so blatant as to be absurd.

No. You have put words in my mouth.

You have attributed to me opinions I do not hold and did not express.

It is dishonest.

Conversation closed unless you want to try again, honestly.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Your little snit fit is laughable. I have repeated your words back to you. You now characterize my pointing out why I find your words stupid lies.

I repeat it again you are on this board to apologize for Hamas.

I repeat you do not believe Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state otherwise prove me a liar, state Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state and Hamas, the PA by refusing to accept as a Jewish state of Israel and calling for a Muslim state to replace Israel engage it in a war challenging its very right to exist. Go on prove me wrong.

Next you now want to come on this forum and state boldly, "hiding bombs in schools" is rational.

Your apologies for what Hamas does is so blatant as to be absurd.

The entire above post is proof of your dishonesty.

You are putting words and opinions in my mouth I do not hold and never expressed.

Last chance. Apologize for the lies, and try again.

Otherwise we are done.

 

[Elmo]

1. All Israelis would agree with you.
2. No Israeli believes the retaliatory strikes by themselves will end Hamas-they are designed to contain, prevent and discourage Hamas attacks as they are happening-no Israeli who has lived through all the years of this b.s. believes for a second they can simply blow up Hamas.
3. Its easy too easy for you to say-you need to convince millions of ordinary Palestinain people to turn against Hamas-that is what is called a platitude, its bloody obvious. Its easy to say it but how.

By the way I am agreeing with you and not giving you a hard time. I am asking how.

You have any idea how to convince Palestinians to tell Hamas or the PA to do what the IRA did? You think anyone right now anywhere in the Middle East Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, will say openly-stop the terror and recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Put down your terror so we can get to the peace table? Who? You know anyone? I am serious.

I was part of one of many volunteer peace groups in Israel who worked with Palestinians. We got along fine. We are both the equal enemy of Hamas, the PA, Islamic Jihad. No one in Israel is threatening to kill me for having tried reach out. No one. The other way around-you have any idea what Hamas does to people who question it. I have said it on this forum. One tactic is to shove a pole up the buttocks of the Palestinian who questions them, pull their innards out, and leave them to slowly die on full display.

You know what happens to a mother when someone comes to get their child to dig a tunnel or smuggle a weapon? Well? I do. I have seen the cut off body parts. You?

The real world aint that easy and believe me people on both sides are being traumatized no differently. I share your comment but I am saying its more complex then that Thanks and peace. Please do not take this as a mean response. You presented a balanced criticism. I appreciate it.

Can't you see that #2 and #3 directly contradict each other? I'm glad you agree that it's obvious that we need the Palestinians to reject Hamas. Any plan to achieve that is going to be complicated, but the first step is also "bloody obvious". Israel has to stop killing their friends and families. Israel has to stop destroying vital infrastructure that the people need to survive. It is OBVIOUS that #3 will never happen as long as retaliatory strikes (#2) continue to rain down on innocent people.

I realize reducing retaliatory strikes means taking some of the pressure off of Hamas, at least in the short term. They will probably end up launching more rockets. This is a "turn the other cheek" strategy, which unfortunately means taking extra hits. Every Israeli death at the hands of those terrorists is a horrible thing, but we are talking about how to END the conflict. If it succeeds many more lives might be saved in the long run. As I have argued previously in this thread, I don't believe Israel's retaliatory strikes have much defensive value. The terrorists have almost always moved on before the strike arrives. You might disagree, but so be it. I don't have anything else to say on the matter.

Merely stopping the strikes is probably not enough to convince the Palestinians to turn on Hamas. I think we'd need to take it a step further and actively help them. This is much more difficult. I'm not an expert on international law, so there are probably political and legal barriers that need to be overcome. Obviously you can't give money directly to people, because Hamas will just steal it and use it to buy more rockets. Instead, I'd recommend Israel very publicly funding the rebuilding of important infrastructure like schools and hospitals. The UN needs to have big role. Perhaps peacekeeping forces just to protect construction sites to ensure Hamas doesn't blatantly steal everything. It should be widely broadcast exactly where the resources are coming from. If the strikes stop at the same time, Hamas' own propaganda efforts will be unable to counter the obvious fact that Israel is making an effort to help the people. Eventually, Hamas will lose support and power within Palestine. If we can simultaneously cut off their support from foreign governments, they will wither and lose their ability to attack at all.

 

[Elmo]

I was referring to the recent conflict, your example happened 7 years ago. I didn't find any new information about this case so what I said earlier remains:

So I don't know, but as I said:

Even if this specific case is wrong, Israel didn't attack hospitals in the recent conflict so it already got better. Do you have a better alternative to what Israel did in the recent conflict?

That is a good point, the IDF did not attack hospitals in the recent conflict. That is a step in the right direction. I'm just suggesting they take a few more. They still killed hundreds of innocents, and destroyed vital infrastructure. I answer your question in post #124

I don't agree that Israel, or anybody in the world, "needs" to convince the Palestinian. In general, the only one that "needs" to solve a problem in a specific society is the society itself.
Nevertheless, one can try to help, and I agree that Israel should try as hard as it can. Israel still needs to defend itself in the short term.

For the bolded, you are correct, Israel does need to defend itself. The iron dome is 90-95% effective for that purpose. My point throughout this thread is that I do not believe that most of the IDF retaliatory strikes have significant defensive value. So they are ineffective for the purpose of defense, and perpetuate the cycle of vengeance. The only thing they really accomplish is to ensure that innocents suffer, Hamas will always have new soldiers to recruit, and the conflict will never end. The costs outweigh the benefits. You seem to disagree with my cost-benefit analysis, so I'm not sure what else we can say to each other. Thank you for the respectful discussion.