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[W:#37]We know why the invasion of Ukraine happened when it did

tacomancer said:
Those two points are unrelated to the topic.

The real topic is that this is evidence that the Chinese are far more complicit then previous evidence would suggest.
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I'm not saying the Chinese interests are not in play but prior to this the speculation was Russia would wait out of a sense of national pride. Apparently they take great pride in their Olympians and didn't want to tarnish the celebration.
 
trouble13 said:
I'm not saying the Chinese interests are not in play but prior to this the speculation was Russia would wait out of a sense of national pride. Apparently they take great pride in their Olympians and didn't want to tarnish the celebration.
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That makes a lot of sense, I didn't consider that angle. Thanks :)
 
tacomancer said:
What are your thoughts on China and Russia colluding on timing?
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They absolutely colluded and coordinated. Russia needs China and vise versa.
 
Schism said:
They absolutely colluded and coordinated. Russia needs China and vise versa.
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Thank you for learning how to stay on topic.

I agree with your assessment. I would also assert both have an interesting history of starting off as communist and then turning fascist, which means they see eye to eye in how the world should be run.
 
Schism said:
LOL. Next you'll tell us Jimmy Carter colluded with Egypt to win peace with Israel.
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You trying to tell me Nixon wasn't the one who normalized American-Chinese relations?

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Brochacholomigo said:
You trying to tell me Nixon wasn't the one who normalized American-Chinese relations?
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Normalizing relations isn't shipping our manufacturing overseas and gutting blur collar union jobs.
 
China is Russia's enabler in this whole debacle. They've actively taken measures to increase trade between the two nations, including since the invasion began, dulling some of the impact of the sanctions. If they took a hard line similar to the US/EU at this moment, the war would end in 12 hours. China will always optimize for China; that includes "managing" the timing of the invasion, and soft-pedaling on the response if it causes EU disruption while China moves forward with its economy.

Think about all the major powers and how this event is affecting each of them. Everyone but China is taking some kind of hit or another. China continues to move forward with its plans... and with more Russian coal and grain to fuel its economy than it had before the invasion!
 
phoenix2020 said:
Think about all the major powers and how this event is affecting each of them.
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In Ukraine, university tuition is far more inexpensive than it is in say Europe or the US. In addition, all university courses in Ukraine must be taught in Ukrainian, Russian , and English. The English instruction draws students from all over the world, and a significant number from India. One of these Indian students was killed in a Russian bombing raid the other day. Yet New Delhi refuses to condem the invasion, abstained the other day at the Security Council, and has no plans to sanction Russia. Why? Because most of India's weapons are Russian made and they need Russia's cooperation for maintainence and spare parts. China is still an arch-enemy to India.

This is a predictable drawback to buying weapons from a known brutal dictatorship, or buying gas/oil from that same distatorship. At some point, your dependence on Moscow is going to bite you in the ass (ask Germany).

Then again, I consider the government of Narendra Modi a dictatorship right along with the government of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in Turkey.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Stay on topic, which is not Iraq, Afghanistan, Jimmy Carter, Obama's drones etc. Only warning, thread bans will follow
 
Rogue Valley said:
In Ukraine, university tuition is far more inexpensive than it is in say Europe or the US. In addition, all university courses in Ukraine must be taught in Ukrainian, Russian , and English. The English instruction draws students from all over the world, and a significant number from India. One of these Indian students was killed in a Russian bombing raid the other day. Yet New Delhi refuses to condem the invasion, abstained the other day at the Security Council, and has no plans to sanction Russia. Why? Because most of India's weapons are Russian made and they need Russia's cooperation for maintainence and spare parts. China is still an arch-enemy to India.

This is a predictable drawback to buying weapons from a known brutal dictatorship, or buying gas/oil from that same distatorship. At some point, your dependence on Moscow is going to bite you in the ass (ask Germany).

Then again, I consider the government of Narendra Modi a dictatorship right along with the government of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in Turkey.
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India is a highly complicated situation. They're threatened on all sides by aggressors that receive enormous American military support (Pakistan) or economic support (China) and given what Great Britain did, they will be cautious about opening up their market for a long time to come. They maintain healthy relationships with both Ukraine AND Russia, as well as most of Europe, and as you pointed out there are tens of thousands of Indian citizens in Ukraine AND Russia. They rely heavily on Russia as a stable arms partner because the United States has flip-flopped on relations with India four times in the last ~25 years. And like other nations who have maintained a light touch on this topic that you probably consider a dictatorship (I suppose the dictatorship of Israel comes to mind, their posture has been similar) they're staying neutral to keep options open.

At the end of the day, everyone will be measured in their willingness to sacrifice to join the condemnation bandwagon. Case in point: EU which is not willing to sacrifice Russian supply of petroleum products in spite of all their tough words.
 
phoenix2020 said:
At the end of the day, everyone will be measured in their willingness to sacrifice to join the condemnation bandwagon. Case in point: EU which is not willing to sacrifice Russian supply of petroleum products in spite of all their tough words.
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For many in Europe, petroleum products from Russia are existential. That can't be turned around on a dime.

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said that Germany would not scrap its nuclear power plants as planned in the wake of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
 
Schism said:
Have you seen the dead bodies on the ground? Sanctions didn't cause that. Also, Obama's drone program didn't shoot sanctions.

Yemeni, Libyan, Iraqi, and Afghani civilians and wedding parties can testify to that.
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I said shooting wars are becoming obsolete. Not already obsolete.
 
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