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W:276]14th Amendment - Original Intent and Roe V Wade

Re: Rockets' red glare & all

You must bring up the subject at the next dinner you're invited to.


You asked and I provided accurate information.

Glad I was able to educate you about the facts.
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

You asked and I provided accurate information.

Glad I was able to educate you about the facts.

I don't think I did ask how a fetus is aborted other than to express a hope that they were dead at the time of burning.

I also dispute the fact that all late term abortions are performed on a fetus that is dead...that the procedures makes them dead is beyond dispute.
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

I don't think I did ask how a fetus is aborted other than to express a hope that they were dead at the time of burning.

I also dispute the fact that all late term abortions are performed on a fetus that is dead...that the procedures makes them dead is beyond dispute.

I posted the fetus is dead before contractions or extraction of the fetus in an abortion past 22 weeks.

The skull is too large and too hardened to perform a Dismemberment abortion past 22 weeks.

So either contractions are induced or an an intact D and E is performed.

From :


.Abortion Procedures
Intact Dilation and Evacuation (Dilation and Extraction)


This method is used after 18 weeks from the last menstrual period. Intact dilation and evacuation is a procedure used so a fetus can be removed intact. With this method, the largest part of the fetus (the head) is reduced in diameter to allow ease of passage through the cervix and vagina. This may be a multiple-day procedure. For this procedure, the physician will:
Day One:

Perform laboratory tests to confirm the pregnancy, test for Rh status, and test for anemia and red blood cell count.
Take a medical and obstetrical history, including a history of allergies and all current medications.
Examine the uterus and perform an ultrasound to confirm how far along the pregnancy is.
Educate the patient about the abortion process, side effects, and clear instructions for assessing emergency services. Prescribe antibiotics to prevent infection.
Insert a speculum into the vagina, to hold it open. The physician cleans the vagina and cervix with an antiseptic solution. At this time, a numbing agent (local anesthetic) may be injected in the cervix.
Insert osmotic dilators (small tubes that absorb moisture from the tissues surrounding the cervix and swell) approximately 2 or more days before the surgical procedure to open the cervix, allowing access to the uterus. Misoprostol may also be given several hours before surgery. This medicine can help soften the cervix.

Inject medicine through the abdomen or vagina into the amniotic fluid or the heart of the fetus. This causes the death of the fetus and makes fetal tissue more pliable


Monitor the contractions and delivery of the fetus.
Monitor the expulsion of the placenta. May scrape the uterus with a curette to ensure there is no retained placenta.

Abortion by Labor Induction
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

Sorry, I posted the wrong link

The correct link is

Abortion by Dilatation and Extraction

From your link:

"Inject medicine through the abdomen or vagina into the amniotic fluid or the heart of the fetus. This causes the death of the fetus and makes fetal tissue more pliable....."


So the fetus dies from lethal injection, and is not "already dead"
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

From your link:

"Inject medicine through the abdomen or vagina into the amniotic fluid or the heart of the fetus. This causes the death of the fetus and makes fetal tissue more pliable....."


So the fetus dies from lethal injection, and is not "already dead"

The injection makes sure the fetus is dead before contractions or extraction begins.

The skull of a 22 week and beyond fetus is too hard to fit through the woman’s cervix so the fetus must be dead in order for skull to be pliable enough for the doctor to pull it through the cervix intact.

As I said , clinic abortions only occur if the fetus is non - viable ( dead or dying ).

Or in cases where irreparable damage to a major bodily function would occur if the pregnancy continued.

Sadly, a few viable pregnancies are aborted to keep the woman from having a heat attack , stoke, kidney damage or liver damage which could cause the death of the woman or would cause irreparable damage to one of her major bodily functions.

I posted that in an earlier reply to you.

From post #466

So you agree with a painless fatal injections to the fetus so they have NO chance of being born alive.

That’s great then late term abortions are not considered abortions to you because the fetus died from by injection before the abortion.

fYI : all abortions past 20 weeks are listed in abortion stats even though the fetus was dead.
If a doctor had to start contracts or remove the dead fetus because it did not expel on its own it is an abortion.
If you have Twitter use. # TheMoreYouKnow

Otherwise Look up Supreme Court Ruling why late term abortion doctors must use injections to ensure fetus is dead before the abortion begins.

Hint :

The partial birth abortion ban and the Infant protection act of 2002 are the reasons why.


The government wanted to ensure that no more preemies would be born from a failed abortion attempt.
 
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Re: Rockets' red glare & all

The injection makes sure the fetus is dead before contractions or extraction begins....

And you think this would interest anyone (including me) in what way ?

You said the fetus was already dead - yeah killed by lethal injection in the first part of the process.
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

And you think this would interest anyone (including me) in what way ?

You said the fetus was already dead - yeah killed by lethal injection in the first part of the process.

Rich:

I explained that in Clinic abortions that take place after 22 weeks the unborn must be dead before contractions are stared or the unborn is extracted the fetus must be dead.



From post #425

After 20 weeks the cost goes up oover $10,000 to $20,000. The abortion takes 2 to 3 days and the pain level goes up because the unborn must be dead before contractions are started.

A dead fetus takes longer to deliver, the contractions are harder and closer together than when the fetus is alive.



I even spelled the fatal injection out to you In post # 435


A Federal Law.

Doctors must make sure the fetus is dead in abortions past 22 weeks so a painless lethal injection is administered in fetuses who need to be aborted

To which you replied in post 436

So it's not really an abortion is it if the fetus is already dead ?
...

I explained the Federal Law requiring the injection is there to ensure the fetus will be stillborn and not born alive even for a few minutes.
 
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Re: Rockets' red glare & all

I explained that in Clinic abortions that take place after 22 weeks the unborn must be dead before contractions are stared or the unborn is extracted the fetus must be dead....

But they're made dead by the abortion clinic as part of the abortion procedure, not already dead

So abortions are carried out on live unborn children.
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

But they're made dead by the abortion clinic as part of the abortion procedure, not already dead

So abortions are carried out on live unborn children.

False.

Not in all cases.

Since fetuses also die a natural death within in the woman and must be removed during an abortion by the doctor.

Some die from fetal defects including the malformed little one I miscarried at about 20 weeks.

If it had not expelled on own in the hospital that night I would have had to have the dismemberment abortion the next day that the hospital had me lined up for.

Septic abortions occur when the fetus dies from a septic infection.

Missed abortions occur when the fetus dies and was not expelled on own in a timely manner,

The doctor must remove the fetus that died on it own so the woman does not contract a life threatening infection.

The dead fetus who died a death from the septic infection must then be removed By a doctor during an abortion.

Even if a fetus is alive in the womb when a elective abortion occurs it does not mean the fetus is viable.

That why the line is drawn at viabilby.

States is may take a compelling interest in potential human life at viability except in cases where the woman’s life she would have irreparable impairment of her health.
 
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Re: Rockets' red glare & all

OK not in ALL cases, but most wouldn't you say ?

And I clarified the difference between elective abortions and lifesaving/ major health saving abortions.

Consider yourself more educated as to why abortions that take place after 22 weeks are needed and why women do not chose an abortion that late in pregnancy.

They have abortions that late because something medically went very wrong their pregnancy.

Abortions that late must be planned in advance.

Thet take 2 to 4 more days to complete.
Often cost $15,000 to over $20,000 not including travel expenses.
The contractions are much more painful than normal labor pains.

If the woman decides that late she wishes not to raise a child than she could make about $20,000 giving up her newborn for a private adoption.

Forget your premise that if it can be done ithan a doctor can be paid off to make it happen.

It cannot be done legally and most abortion doctors only do abortions part time.

They have private OB/ GYN practices and are not willing to risk their medical practices for an illegal abortion.

.
 
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Re: Rockets' red glare & all

OK not in ALL cases, but most wouldn't you say ?

As Lursa has posted many times :


...

There's no pain or awareness to the unborn during abortion. 97.5% consist of a pea-sized or smaller unborn being flushed painlessly from the womb. The rest, which are medically necessary, receive anesthetic/lethal injection *by law* before any procedure.
...
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

So a woman CAN decide on a later term abortion of an otherwise HEALTHY fetus ?

No , women can not decide on a late term abortion.

( they may decide not to have an abortion and risk their life like I did during my first pregnancy. )

All abortions past 22 weeks are medically necessary ( something medically is wrong with the pregnancy.)

And as Lursa and I both made clear ...the fetus receives *by law* a painless fatal injection.



Did you read what Lursa posted?

Here is the post:

I bolded the part where she said the were medically necessary.


...
There's no pain or awareness to the unborn during abortion. 97.5% consist of a pea-sized or smaller unborn being flushed painlessly from the womb.The rest, which are medically necessary, receive anesthetic/lethal injection *by law* before any procedure....
 
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Re: Rockets' red glare & all

No , women can not decide on a late term abortion...

...all abortions past 22 weeks are medically necessary...

"...the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision recognized abortion as “a fundamental right” nationwide but stated that after the stage of viability, states could regulate abortions with the exception of when they were “necessary, in appropriate medical judgement''...

...the United States today contains a patchwork of restrictions and prohibitions on abortions that occur later in pregnancy. According to Guttmacher, 43 states prohibit some abortions after a certain point in pregnancy. Some use fetal viability as the cutoff, others the third trimester (which begins in the 28th week), and others a certain number of weeks post-fertilization or after a woman’s last menstrual period or of gestation....

...states have imposed many other kinds of restrictions such as having a second physician attend the procedure or to have multiple doctors sign off that a later abortion is medically necessary....
"


https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-p...s-late-term-abortions-law-women-who-get-them/



So yes, some state do requires that doctors state the abortion is medically necessary, others do not.
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

"...the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision recognized abortion as “a fundamental right” nationwide but stated that after the stage of viability, states could regulate abortions with the exception of when they were “necessary, in appropriate medical judgement''...

...the United States today contains a patchwork of restrictions and prohibitions on abortions that occur later in pregnancy. According to Guttmacher, 43 states prohibit some abortions after a certain point in pregnancy. Some use fetal viability as the cutoff, others the third trimester (which begins in the 28th week), and others a certain number of weeks post-fertilization or after a woman’s last menstrual period or of gestation....

...states have imposed many other kinds of restrictions such as having a second physician attend the procedure or to have multiple doctors sign off that a later abortion is medically necessary....
"


https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-p...s-late-term-abortions-law-women-who-get-them/


So yes, some state do requires that doctors state the abortion is medically necessary, others do not.

There are several individual states that have no abortion restrictions but no abortions past viability occur in any them unless the abortions are medically necessary.


The 4 clinic doctors who perform abortions past 22 weeks follow medical standards.

THE PRACTITIONER'S USE REASONABLE AND GOOD FAITH PROFESSIONAL
JUDGMENT BASED ON THE FACTS OF THE PATIENT'S CASE
 
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Re: Rockets' red glare & all

There are several individual states that have no abortion restrictions but no abortions past viability occur in any them unless the abortions are medically necessary....

But is there anything to prevent it from happening ?

Also, clarify your claim. In which states are you saying that no abortions, of a healthy pregnancy, have ever been performed, beyond how many weeks ?
 
Baby steps

But is there anything to prevent it from happening ?

Also, clarify your claim. In which states are you saying that no abortions, of a healthy pregnancy, have ever been performed, beyond how many weeks ?

You know, you should probably do your own legwork, if you're going to ask a series of detailed conditional questions.

1. You'll know the provenance of the information.

2. You'll learn to navigate the data on your own - important for your own peace of mind.

3. You won't need to rely on the kindness nor forbearance of strangers.
 
Re: Baby steps

You know, you should probably do your own legwork, if you're going to ask a series of detailed conditional questions.

1. You'll know the provenance of the information.

2. You'll learn to navigate the data on your own - important for your own peace of mind.

3. You won't need to rely on the kindness nor forbearance of strangers.

No, the person making to assertion needs to do the "leg works" and demonstrate the claim to be true.
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

But is there anything to prevent it from happening ?

Also, clarify your claim. In which states are you saying that no abortions, of a healthy pregnancy, have ever been performed, beyond how many weeks ?



The youngest age a fetus could be viable is 22 weeks ... therefore no abortions are allowed past that age except for medical reasons.

Not in any state. Federal law takes priority over state laws.

Just because an individual state does not have a law against it does not mean there’re is no law against it.

Roe allows for abortions past viability when the life of the woman or irreparable damage to a major bodily function ( of the woman ) would occur if the pregnancy continued.

How many times do I need to spell that out to you?

Do you have a short term memory? Or dementia? Or Alzheimer’s?

I ask because you keep repeating the same question.
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

The youngest age a fetus could be viable is 22 weeks ... therefore no abortions are allowed past that age except for medical reasons.

Not in any state. Federal law takes priority over state laws....


I found this reference:


"The current judicial interpretation of the U.S. Constitution regarding abortion, following the Supreme Court 1973 Roe v. Wade, is that abortion is legal but may be restricted by the states to varying degrees"


The key word is "may". I can find no federal laws regarding term limits on abortions - if you insist there is a federal statute please advise its number.
Here is a summary of state laws where there's no mention of a federal law:


An Overview of Abortion Laws | Guttmacher Institute
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

New here, just dropping in for a quick comment.

RVW is a tough subject because, IMO, there's never going to be a "right" answer. The Constitution clearly states that protection of it's citizens is a valid function of government.

Those who wish to "protect" the unborn child do so (in general) because the child cannot represent itself and needs advocates to fight for its life.

Those who wish to "protect" the rights of woman to end the (soon-to-be) life of the child do so (in general) because they believe that a woman (everyone, actually) has a right to do with their body as they please.

Both are valid perspectives in my opinion, separated only by time: When is the unborn a citizen? At what point in time do "we" - the living - agree to allow the unborn life to proceed? Some say a baby is only a citizen once it's born. Others say viability outside of the womb makes the baby a citizen. Still others look at heartbeat or brain activity. Regardless, the arguments for or against are *always* (IMO) about time.

Everyone, I believe, agrees that the government has a duty, per the Constitution, to protect the life of its citizens, but not everyone can agree when the unborn becomes a "citizen". RVW, therefore, usually isn't about a "woman's right to choose" because a woman already has the right to do with her body as she pleases. RVW isn't about the rights of the unborn, it's about the point in time when the unborn has the same rights as every other citizen and thus deserves the same protections. RVW is entirely about the competition of rights - whose rights "win".

Hence the tough subject...
 
Re: Rockets' red glare & all

...the Constitution clearly states that protection of it's citizens is a valid function of government...

The question is though, when is a new citizen created ? At birth ?



....when is the unborn a citizen? At what point in time do "we" - the living - agree to allow the unborn life to proceed?

What used to be almost a non-question is becoming more pertinent as science discovers more about the nature of life.
 
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