[W: #18] Jesus is GOD (1 Viewer)

[LittleNipper]

There is the OT and the NT. The big 3 which you mentioned is called the Trinity by some and others may view it as God and his two subordinates. It can be spun many ways……but it seems the OT God only wished the good life for his chosen people. The 10 Commandments were addressed exclusively to the Israelites….nobody else. There is no mention of eternal life or the Holy Spirit in the OT. This period lasted 4,000 years from Adam to Jesus. God changes with the coming of Jesus and John 3:16 informs us “that for God so loved the world”. Suddenly the whole world becomes of interest for God and with the glorification of Jesus the Holy Spirit was released and at this moment eternal life became possible……this was revolutionary in nature demonstrating a love that was no longer exclusive to a chosen few even though they themselves had never had a doorway to eternal life. For example Deuteronomy 5:33 tells us that the reward of obeying the 10 Commandments is that “you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess”…..essentially a material reward…certainly not a spiritual reward…..

CHRIST had to come into this fallen world, and GOD chose the nation of Israel through a righteous young Jewish girl to do it. One must read the entire Bible to see how involved all this really was. You may be surprised to hear that GOD used some former pagans along the way to achieve this end ---- some even declared GOD to be LORD.

 

[Daisy]

Witnesses may twist every bit of scripture to their liking ----- but Paul was inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT whether you like it or not. And CHRIST is KING and due all our worship and adoration for everything HE has ever done in an effort to save those that do.

Sorry, I mis-spoke on the previous post...it was James, not Paul who you are saying lied...seems you're doing all the twisting, we're simply trying to keep things straight...God cannot be tried/tempted...Jesus could...they both are who they say they are...Father and Son...no twisting of the 2 together to be 1...

 

[Metanoia]

CHRIST had to come into this fallen world

Yes…..sounds like God created the world and Jesus saved it….

 

[redbeer]

1 John 5:20​

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

You do know the last sentence in this verse refers to the Father, don't you?

 

[redbeer]

Well obviously, "spiritual body" wouldn't be the same human flesh we know of today.
Lol - how can that be......if we're going to be IMMORTAL?

So it says, "spiritual body."
A "body" does not necessarily mean a human body!
Lol - like................... body of water?

But a glorified 'flesh', huh?

 

[Metanoia]

Say what you want but it seems like Jehovah was dragging his feet for 4,000 years ?

 

[LittleNipper]

Yes…..sounds like God created the world and Jesus saved it….

The fact is that CHRIST created everything. Colossians !:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

 

[LittleNipper]

You do know the last sentence in this verse refers to the Father, don't you?

Sorry, but that is neither how English nor Greek grammar works. In this case the pronoun refers to the last proper name mentioned.

1 John 5:20​

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

John 11:25​

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

 

[LittleNipper]

Sorry, I mis-spoke on the previous post...it was James, not Paul who you are saying lied...seems you're doing all the twisting, we're simply trying to keep things straight...God cannot be tried/tempted...Jesus could...they both are who they say they are...Father and Son...no twisting of the 2 together to be 1...

JESUS was the SON of MAN at this point. The FATHER and the SON are united. THEY are ONE. PERFECT AGREEMENT!

 

[LittleNipper]

Sorry, I mis-spoke on the previous post...it was James, not Paul who you are saying lied...seems you're doing all the twisting, we're simply trying to keep things straight...God cannot be tried/tempted...Jesus could...they both are who they say they are...Father and Son...no twisting of the 2 together to be 1...

I never said anyone lied. The BIBLE is understood in it's complete study ---- and does not hang on the implication of any single verse. But, John (according to Witnesses' interpretations) lied big-time with regard to the following:

• Revelation 7:3–8:

saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads."
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed

There are actually three issues to address here. The first is the number of people in heaven. In Revelation 7 and 14, we are told about a group of 144,000 people that will always be with the Lamb. If we take these descriptions of this group literally they would be only Jewish male virgins. This would mean means that Peter (not a virgin), the Blessed Mother (not a male), and Jehovah’s Witnesses founder Charles Taze Russel (not a Jew) would not be in heaven.
There are other problems with the Witnesses’ thesis that these 144,000 will be the only people in heaven. The book also shows 24 elders that surround the throne of God (Rv 4:4). This brings the grand total to 144,024. This number is increased dramatically by Revelation 7:9, which states there is a countless multitude before the throne. The number 144,000 is likely only a symbolic reference to the New Israel, arrived at by squaring the number of the 12 tribes of Israel and multiplying by 1000.
As to the question of those left on earth, Jesus never speaks of having two flocks, an earthly and heavenly class of followers. Jesus has one bride, and she is not divided into two camps. Those with their name in the book of life enter the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:27) and those whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). This does not leave room for a middle class. All of God’s people are together in the New Jerusalem, not part here and part there.
The references in Psalm 37 to “inheriting the land” are directed towards the promised land of Israel, which later became a type or figure of heaven. We are told by Paul in Philippians 3:20, “our citizenship is in heaven.” Those who are occupied with what is earthly will “end in destruction” according to the prior verse. As explained here: https://www.catholic.com/qa/how-do-i-refute-the-jehovahs-witness-claim-about-the-144000

 

[Daisy]

I never said anyone lied. The BIBLE is understood in it's complete study ---- and does not hang on the implication of any single verse. But, John (according to Witnesses' interpretations) lied big-time with regard to the following:

• Revelation 7:3–8:

There are actually three issues to address here. The first is the number of people in heaven. In Revelation 7 and 14, we are told about a group of 144,000 people that will always be with the Lamb. If we take these descriptions of this group literally they would be only Jewish male virgins. This would mean means that Peter (not a virgin), the Blessed Mother (not a male), and Jehovah’s Witnesses founder Charles Taze Russel (not a Jew) would not be in heaven.
There are other problems with the Witnesses’ thesis that these 144,000 will be the only people in heaven. The book also shows 24 elders that surround the throne of God (Rv 4:4). This brings the grand total to 144,024. This number is increased dramatically by Revelation 7:9, which states there is a countless multitude before the throne. The number 144,000 is likely only a symbolic reference to the New Israel, arrived at by squaring the number of the 12 tribes of Israel and multiplying by 1000.
As to the question of those left on earth, Jesus never speaks of having two flocks, an earthly and heavenly class of followers. Jesus has one bride, and she is not divided into two camps. Those with their name in the book of life enter the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:27) and those whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). This does not leave room for a middle class. All of God’s people are together in the New Jerusalem, not part here and part there.
The references in Psalm 37 to “inheriting the land” are directed towards the promised land of Israel, which later became a type or figure of heaven. We are told by Paul in Philippians 3:20, “our citizenship is in heaven.” Those who are occupied with what is earthly will “end in destruction” according to the prior verse. As explained here: https://www.catholic.com/qa/how-do-i-refute-the-jehovahs-witness-claim-about-the-144000

lol...oh nice...you've got nothin' so you choose to go off topic...

 

[Daisy]

Not a co-Creator. The Son’s share in the creative works, however, did not make him a co-Creator with his Father. The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit, or active force. (Ge 1:2; Ps 33:6) And since Jehovah is the Source of all life, all animate creation, visible and invisible, owes its life to him. (Ps 36:9) Rather than a co-Creator, then, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the Scriptures.—Mt 19:4-6
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002451

 

[Daisy]

The Wuest Expanded Translation of John 1:1, published in 1958, renders the phrase "and the Word was God" as "and the Word was a god". This particular translation emphasizes the literalness and clarity of the Greek text, often using expanded English phrases to convey nuances that might be lost in more standard translations. While some translations use "God," Wuest's choice of "a god" highlights the potential distinction between the Word as a divine being and the absolute deity of God the Father.

This translation, unlike some other versions, strives to follow the Greek text's order and meaning closely. Wuest's translation is intended to be a companion or commentary, providing a clearer understanding of the Greek text by expanding on the meaning of specific words.

The Wuest Expanded Translation (born 1961 in Professor Kenneth S. Wuest) is a literal New Testament translation that follows the word order in the Greek quite strictly.

What is the most accurate translation of John 1:1?
John L. McKenzie (Catholic Biblical scholar) wrote that ho Theos is God the Father, and adds that John 1:1 should be translated "the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being."
Google

 

[tosca1]

The Wuest Expanded Translation of John 1:1, published in 1958, renders the phrase "and the Word was God" as "and the Word was a god". This particular translation emphasizes the literalness and clarity of the Greek text, often using expanded English phrases to convey nuances that might be lost in more standard translations. While some translations use "God," Wuest's choice of "a god" highlights the potential distinction between the Word as a divine being and the absolute deity of God the Father.

This translation, unlike some other versions, strives to follow the Greek text's order and meaning closely. Wuest's translation is intended to be a companion or commentary, providing a clearer understanding of the Greek text by expanding on the meaning of specific words.

The Wuest Expanded Translation (born 1961 in Professor Kenneth S. Wuest) is a literal New Testament translation that follows the word order in the Greek quite strictly.

What is the most accurate translation of John 1:1?
John L. McKenzie (Catholic Biblical scholar) wrote that ho Theos is God the Father, and adds that John 1:1 should be translated "the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being."
Google

@Alter2Ego
@redbeer


If it conflicts with the BIBLICAL MESSAGE - it can't be right!
It doesn't matter how it is being rationalized by a translator!

If it conflicts with the BIBLICAL MESSAGE - it can't be right!
It's a deception by Satan!



You can't even compare the use of "god," to how Jesus described judges.
Judges, aren't worshipped!
And certainly - judges weren't formally identified within the context of identifying Jesus as "THE WORD of GOD" - HIS DEITY!




BOTTOM LINE:

It is a direct contradiction to the very first Commandment of GOD - which Jesus says, is, the most important Commandment of all!



Exodus 20
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;




IF JESUS is a god......................it means, he is worshipped as a god.
Nothing different from the worship of other gods.


What do you think the commemoration to His death is, every time you do your communion?
It's become a ritualistic........... GLORIFICATION of HIS SACRIFICE AND DEATH!
That, is worship!



That's why I've been saying - if you don't believe JESUS is GOD HIMSELF, you're committing idolatry!

 

[redbeer]

Sorry, but that is neither how English nor Greek grammar works. In this case the pronoun refers to the last proper name mentioned.

1 John 5:20​

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

John 11:25​

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

(1Jn 5:20) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


a) The Son of God is come and given us an understanding, that we may know "HIM" that is true, and we are in "HIM" that is true, even in "HIS" Son Jesus Christ.


b) Finding out who is the "him", "him", "his" is critical for whoever it is, that One is the true God.


c) Jesus came to declare His Father as the only true God, consistently stating his Father is the only God.


d) Case closed, it's so easy, but trinitarians must twist it to fit false doctrine.

 

[LittleNipper]

lol...oh nice...you've got nothin' so you choose to go off topic...

I already provided you with an answer earlier, and so I simply pointed out that your Witnesses religion is full of values which you yourself promote that don't meet your own standards ----- let alone that of GOD's Word.

 

[redbeer]

@Alter2Ego
@redbeer


If it conflicts with the BIBLICAL MESSAGE - it can't be right!
It doesn't matter how it is being rationalized by a translator!

If it conflicts with the BIBLICAL MESSAGE - it can't be right!
It's a deception by Satan!



You can't even compare the use of "god," to how Jesus described judges.
Judges, aren't worshipped!
And certainly - judges weren't formally identified within the context of identifying Jesus as "THE WORD of GOD" - HIS DEITY!




BOTTOM LINE:

It is a direct contradiction to the very first Commandment of GOD - which Jesus says, is, the most important Commandment of all!



Exodus 20
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

(Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(Rom 1:23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


The false trinity doctrine has actually raised the "Christ" of God into God Himself, making a "Godman" to worship. Becoming the "golden calf" while as the Israelites awaited Moses return from the Mount, they await the return of Christ, both changing the glory of the One True God into an image of man and beast.

IF JESUS is a god......................it means, he is worshipped as a god.
Nothing different from the worship of other gods.


What do you think the commemoration to His death is, every time you do your communion?
It's become a ritualistic........... GLORIFICATION of HIS SACRIFICE AND DEATH!
That, is worship!



That's why I've been saying - if you don't believe JESUS is GOD HIMSELF, you're committing idolatry!

We are to believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God taking upon us the same Father/God as Jesus......this is true Christianity.

 

[LittleNipper]

Let US make man in OUR image.(1Jn 5:20) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


a) The Son of God is come and given us an understanding, that we may know "HIM" that is true, and we are in "HIM" that is true, even in "HIS" Son Jesus Christ.


b) Finding out who is the "him", "him", "his" is critical for whoever it is, that One is the true God.


c) Jesus came to declare His Father as the only true God, consistently stating his Father is the only God.


d) Case closed, it's so easy, but trinitarians must twist it to fit false doctrine.

Sorry, you left out the "HE". Some translations use the term THIS ONE. These refer back to the last named one (in this case JESUS). When written the Greek had no punctuation. I pray that you and Daisy come to see that CHRIST is the glue that holds the entire BIBLE together and yet because THEY (FATHER, SON, & HOLY SPIRIT) are ONE, the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT all come into the play as THEY and US. Let US make man in OUR image.

 

[redbeer]

Sorry, you left out the "HE". Some translations use the term THIS ONE. These refer back to the last named one (in this case JESUS). When written the Greek had no punctuation. I pray that you and Daisy come to see that CHRIST is the glue that holds the entire BIBLE together and yet because THEY (FATHER, SON, & HOLY SPIRIT) are ONE, the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT all come into the play as THEY and US. Let US make man in OUR image.

You twist a verse for false doctrine, instead of letting scripture interpret itself. We already know Jesus tells us His Father is the "only true God" and here in John it is exemplified once again, ringing true with more and more witnesses in scripture. The Father is the One and Only True God and Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Perfect sense, truth, and scriptural. There is no need to turn the Christ into God, especially knowing Jesus tells us His Father is greater, the words he spoke were not his, but those of His Father, saying all power and authority was given to Him from His Father.

There are NOT multiple persons who are God.....keep God's commandments.

 

[tosca1]

We are to believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God taking upon us the same Father/God as Jesus......this is true Christianity.

@LittleNipper


FINALLY!

I think - we are saying the same thing, redbeer.


GOD/Father as JESUS (GOD'S WORD, in human form)!

Indeed, GOD had sent His Word to us, to become flesh in the form of Jesus.....................to be our Messiah.

God's Word will be coming back to GOD after all He has come to fulfill (GOD's purpose), are all fulfilled.
That's what it is!


It is important though to believe that JESUS is GOD, in human form.
Otherwise, we worship another god.


No matter how we cut and dice it - Jesus Christ is being glorified and worshipped! Post #964.

We are servants of Christ! That's why we are called, "CHRISTIANS!"


Isn't this what we believe, Little Nipper? @VySky @Revelation
Am I seeing that statement right?


If so, I agree with your statement, redbeer.

 

[LittleNipper]

You twist a verse for false doctrine, instead of letting scripture interpret itself. We already know Jesus tells us His Father is the "only true God" and here in John it is exemplified once again, ringing true with more and more witnesses in scripture. The Father is the One and Only True God and Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Perfect sense, truth, and scriptural. There is no need to turn the Christ into God, especially knowing Jesus tells us His Father is greater, the words he spoke were not his, but those of His Father, saying all power and authority was given to Him from His Father.

There are NOT multiple persons who are God.....keep God's commandments.

I don't know even why you should care one way or the other. You don't believe in Hell and so none of this, according to your religion, has any eternal consequence. However, if you are full of soup and what I believe is correct, one of us is in deep doo-doo and it isn't me... CHRIST is the one who saves and without HIM, NO ONE will ever see the FATHER nor reach "Paradise". There are verses that I've already given that read, "In the name of the FATHER, AND OF the SON, AND OF the HOLY SPIRIT." You go look it up ---- You need to do some research on your own. Look up verses that support the TRINITY. If you're not interested don't waste my time playing ring around the rosy...

 

[Daisy]

Sorry, you left out the "HE". Some translations use the term THIS ONE. These refer back to the last named one (in this case JESUS). When written the Greek had no punctuation. I pray that you and Daisy come to see that CHRIST is the glue that holds the entire BIBLE together and yet because THEY (FATHER, SON, & HOLY SPIRIT) are ONE, the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT all come into the play as THEY and US. Let US make man in OUR image.

Being Jehovah's firstborn creation, he was there when all other things were created...

 

[LittleNipper]

Being Jehovah's firstborn creation, he was there when all other things were created...

Once again, the word translated into English as "FIRST BORN" has the Greek meaning of "unique preeminence". Yes, CHRIST was there when everything that was created was created at the beginning ------ BECAUSE HE created EVERYTHING.

 

[Daisy]

Once again, the word translated into English as "FIRST BORN" has the Greek meaning of "unique preeminence". Yes, CHRIST was there when everything that was created was created at the beginning ------ BECAUSE HE created EVERYTHING.

Once again...

Not a co-Creator. The Son’s share in the creative works, however, did not make him a co-Creator with his Father. The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit, or active force. (Ge 1:2; Ps 33:6) And since Jehovah is the Source of all life, all animate creation, visible and invisible, owes its life to him. (Ps 36:9) Rather than a co-Creator, then, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the Scriptures.—Mt 19:4-6
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002451

 

[DCCougar]

For scripture is clear.

Pretty far from it. Case in point:

32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”

If Jesus is "God," who's this "Father" guy?