[W: #18] Jesus is GOD (1 Viewer)

[LittleNipper]

Irenaeus of Lyons​

Irenaeus is another important witness to the apostolic age, having sat under the teaching of Polycarp who had been appointed bishop of Smyrna by the apostle John. Irenaeus was a missionary to barbarians in Gaul (modern France) who supervised several churches in and around Lyons.

In his famous treatise Against Heresies, he writes:

If anyone … says to us, "How then was the Son produced by the Father?" we reply to him that no one understands that production or generation … which is in fact altogether undescribable. (II:28:6)
Even more clearly, he says:

One God the Father is declared, who is above all … The Father is indeed above all, and he is the head of Christ, but the Word … is himself the head of the Church. (V:18:2)
There is one God, the Father over all, and one Word of God, who is through all, by whom all things have been made. (V:18:2)

Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 405
an A.D. 200 manuscript from Irenaeus

Clement of Alexandria​

Clement of Alexandria, not to be mistaken with Clement of Rome from a century earlier, wrote in the late 2nd century. He was a prolific writer who trained new Christians in Alexandria, Egypt.

In a discussion on 1 John (Fragments of Clement of Alexandria: Comments on the First Epistle of John from The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. II), Clement discusses the generation of the Son of God:

When [John] says, "from the beginning," the elder explained to this effect, that the beginning of generation is not separated from the beginning of the Creator. For when he says, "That which is from the beginning," he touches on the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-existent with the Father. There was, then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity, as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being by equality of substance one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated.
When [John] says, "from the beginning," the elder explained to this effect, that the beginning of generation is not separated from the beginning of the Creator. For when he says, "That which is from the beginning," he touches on the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-existent with the Father. There was, then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity, as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being by equality of substance one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated.

​

 

[LittleNipper]

Theophilus of Antioch​

Theophilus is several bishops removed from Ignatius, an earlier bishop of Antioch, writing as he did in A.D. 168.

Antioch, remember, was Paul's home church.

Theophilus also bore a very clear understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity as taught by the Nicene Creed.

The Word … always exists, residing within the heart of God. For before anything came into being, he had him as a Counselor, being his own mind and thought. But when God wished to make all that he determined , he begot his Word, uttered the first-born of all creation [Note the reference to Psalm 45:1 in the LXX], not himself being emptied of the Word, but having begotten Reason and always conversing with his Reason… . John says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God," showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in him. (To Autolycus II:22)
You can't get a much more precise exposition of the Nicene Creed, and this was 157 years before the Council of Nicea convened to discuss the doctrine of the Trinity.

Athenagoras​

Athenagoras was an apologist who wrote in A.D. 177. His Plea for the Christians is addressed to an unbelieving emperor.

In it, he writes:

We acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassable [i.e., not subject to suffering], incomprehensible, illimitable … by whom the universe has been created through his Logos … We acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let anyone think it ridiculous that God should have a Son … the Son of God is the Logos of the Father. (ch. 10)
This is another extremely clear exposition of the doctrine of the Trinity found in the Nicene Creed, but Athenagoras, a skilled writer, is able to make it even more clear!

If … it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that he is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence, for from the beginning God, who is the eternal mind, had the Logos in himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos. (ibid.)
Did Athenagoras actually read the Nicene Creed?

He couldn't have, of course, but this does make you wonder whether the Nicene Council read A Plea for the Christians! And of course they did because Eusebius the historian, well familiar with Athenagoras and his letter, was at the Council of Nicea!

3rd Century Writers​

There's no real need to address 3rd century quotes. Our job in this section is to establish that the doctrine of the Trinity taught in the Nicene Creed did not develop, but remained the same from the apostles to Nicea. If the 2nd century churches consistently taught the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity, then 3rd century churches—being in between the 2nd century and Nicea—did as well.

We explained the Nicene Creed earlier using Against Praxeas by Tertullian, who wrote at the beginning of the third century, so we have looked at one 3rd century writer.

I believe this is all the evidence needed to establish that the doctrine of the Trinity did not develop during the Pre-Nicene era, but that it remained the same from the apostles to the Council of Nicea.

No wonder Irenaeus was able to write:

The Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points just as if she had one soul and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, teaches them, and hands them down with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. (Against Heresies I:10:2)

 

[Daisy]

Not according to the Jehovah Witnesses: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/go-to-heaven/

But here is the untwisted truth: https://www.gotquestions.org/Jehovahs-Witnesses-144000.html

Like I said, lies...

Nowhere does it say only the JW's because that is not what we believe...

Jehovah chooses when in history he will select anointed ones. (Rom. 8:28-30) Jehovah began choosing anointed ones after Jesus’ death and resurrection, and it seems that all in the first-century Christian congregation were anointed. From the first century until the beginning of the last days, the vast majority of those who claimed to follow Christ were false Christians; Jesus likened them to “weeds.” Even so, Jehovah continued to anoint some faithful ones throughout that time, and they proved to be like the “wheat” Jesus described. (Matt. 13:24-30) During the last days, Jehovah has continued to select those who will make up the 144,000.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2016046?q=who+make+up+the+the+144,000&p=sen

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Feel That They Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved?​

No. Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—John 5:22, 27.
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/who-saved/

 

[Daisy]

the above is a false misconception and here is the proof:

Google is not reliable...got it...

 

[LittleNipper]

Google is not reliable...got it...

Factual history remains factual. Neither the AWAKE Magazine nor the WATCH TOWER can be regarded as fully reliable regarding CHURCH history.

Jehovah chooses when in history he will select anointed ones. (Rom. 8:28-30) Jehovah began choosing anointed ones after Jesus’ death and resurrection, and it seems that all in the first-century Christian congregation were anointed. From the first century until the beginning of the last days, the vast majority of those who claimed to follow Christ were false Christians; Jesus likened them to “weeds.” Even so, Jehovah continued to anoint some faithful ones throughout that time, and they proved to be like the “wheat” Jesus described. (Matt. 13:24-30) During the last days, Jehovah has continued to select those who will make up the 144,000.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2016046?q=who+make+up+the+the+144,000&p=sen

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Feel That They Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved?​

No. Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—John 5:22, 27.
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/who-saved/

The Witnesses do in fact believe that all present day individuals added to the 144,000 will be Witnesses or become such... Note the above lines I highlighted (click on expand). This is what they do in fact believe.​

​

 

[LittleNipper]

The TRUE Biblical facts regarding the 144,000 are listed below. The Witnesses have twisted the verses. The 144,000 are literally Jewish (Rev.7:4-8; 14:4-5); they are a central part of a wave of extraordinary evangelism which will take place during the Tribulation.​

Because the book of Daniel has been unsealed, we have four valid rules of interpretation. Because we have the rules, the identity, mission and timing of the 144,000 can be determined. Since Rule Two of apocalyptic prophecy requires that all specifications be met in order to produce a fulfillment, please review the following specifications concerning the 144,000. A discussion about each specification will follow:

1. John calls the 144,000, “servants,” “servants the prophets,” and “servants of God” in the book of Revelation. (Revelation 6:11, 7:3, 10:7, 19:2)
2. The four angels do not hurt Earth until the 144,000 are sealed. (Revelation 7:3)
3. The 144,000 will be the first to receive the seal of God. (Revelation 7:3) They will be presented to God as the firstfruits of the Great Tribulation. They will not be defiled with women and they will travel with Jesus wherever He goes. (Revelation 14:4)
4. Unlike the numberless multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, the 144,000 will be numbered. (Revelation 7:5-8, 9, 14)
5. The 144,000 will experience and endure the sufferings of Christ. They will be honored above the rest of the redeemed. No one else will be able to sing their song. (Revelation 14:1, 3)
6. No lie or falsehood will be found in the mouths of the 144,000. (Revelation 14:5)
7. The 144,000 will visibly wear the names of the Father and Son on their foreheads throughout eternity. (Revelation 14:1; Revelation 22:3, 4)
8. The 144,000 will be Jews, descendants of Abraham. (Revelation 7:5-8)

What the Witnesses believe about the 144,000 is their own doctrine and not directly found in the Word of GOD as listed above. It is their interpretation ---- and exactly what Witnesses accuse disassociated CHRISTIAN groups of doing with regard to other various doctrines the Witnesses reject -------- not the least of which is the doctrine of the TRINITY.

 

[LittleNipper]

PS> The LORD JESUS CHRIST never looked like this ----
But HE may have looked like this:

 

[Daisy]

 

[redbeer]

You are regarding only an English concept and disregarding a Middle Eastern ancient Greek concept: https://ccslancers.com/blog/2015/10/19/jesus-the-firstborn/
uggested Scripture Reading: Colossians 1:11-20

May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ‘all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Devotional Thoughts:

Christ’s relationship to His Father begins with the phrase “the image of the invisible God.” The word “image,” meaning copy or likeness, expresses Christ’s deity. This word involves more than a resemblance, more than a representation. He is God! Although He took on human form, He has the exact nature of His Father

The description “first-born of all creation” speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator. God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ. Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word “first-born” (Greek word “prototokos”) signifies priority. In the culture of the Bible times, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership. Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth. Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world.

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: “I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).

Six times in scripture the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Discussion Questions:

1. How does it make you feel to know that as a believer in Jesus, you share in God’s inheritance?
2. Since God clearly sets Jesus apart as holding the highest position, what is your response to the command to follow Him?
3. Since God’s love is so great to us, what should we do for Him?

The mission of Cambridge Christian School is to glorify God in all that we do; to demonstrate excellence at every level of academic, athletic, and artistic involvement; to develop strength of character; and to serve the local and global community.

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to an eternal Life, being given the promise of the HS. Each of the verses you quoted which mentions 'firstborn' is not talking about Jesus being preexistent before creation. Jesus is the firstborn of the glorious sons and daughters of God. Read the context around each of those verses.

 

[redbeer]

Jesus is mocking the Pharisees and their legalistic ways. Saying "Isn't it written in the law ye are gods". And hence they are calling him blasphemous because some others refer to him as the Son of God. It's true his followers believed he was God. Peter was the first to realize he was the Christ. Hence the 'blessed art thou Peter upon this rock I'll build my Church and the gates of Hades will not prevail'. The scriptures and Christ himself do everything to not say he's God but implying that he is through his actions and miracles. There's just enough subtleties in the text that people can read completely past it. Which is why the scriptures need taught by people within the tradition. This is one of the reasons Muslims can't understand why Christianity is true. The Gospel is not supposed to be this historical document with every sentence is recorded to literal hundred percent historicity. These are stories that were passed along by his followers and used in church services.

To JWs and other non-trinitarians, you are following a perversion of the faith that does not follow what Christians have believed for thousands of years. The incarnation that Jesus is God in the flesh is the central message of Christianity. You cannot even claim to be a Christian denying this.

Lol, yeah that's what 'they' say, but I do not follow their ways. Realizing Jesus is the Christ means one now sees/understands Jesus is NOT God, for God has no need of an anointing, as did Jesus. It is true that Rock which the gates of hell shall not prevail is namely that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God".......it's NOT that Jesus is God, a member of a trinity of co-equal persons which make up a singular God.

It was prophesied that these would make it so, that not believing in their trinity doctrine, one cannot even be called a Christian, and so it has become. They have taken upon themselves the wrong number, the number of man and is false doctrine, in this world raised to a kingdom of great power.

They have misconstrued that it was not that Jesus is God, but that God was 'in' Christ. The subtle difference which has the world deceived.

 

[T25]

I don't have a problem with the philosophy of Jesus Christ. It's more or less consistent and difficult to criticize other than it's nearly impossible for humans to follow. That's not to say we shouldn't try. The problem isn't Christ... it's Christians.

I think there are two types of Christians. One, Christians that believe in Jesus but don't make any effort to follow his commandments. Two, faithful Christians that believe in and, as you mentioned, legitimately TRY to obey his commandments.

Faithful Christians struggle with sin, unfaithful Christians REVEL in sin. There is a big difference. Jesus said that he would "spit out" lukewarm believers. He also said in Matthew 7:21-23 that he will tell some Christians "I never knew you". Presumably those people are thrown into the LOF.

Jesus talked about all of us being slaves to sin. You're right, it's impossible for any of us to be like Jesus because we're all in bondage to sin. We can't not sin! Our belief in and desire to obey Jesus will result in Jesus FREEING us from the slavery of sin and then we will be made perfect and live FOREVER in his wonderful Kingdom.

 

[T25]

Lol, yeah that's what 'they' say, but I do not follow their ways. Realizing Jesus is the Christ means one now sees/understands Jesus is NOT God, for God has no need of an anointing, as did Jesus. It is true that Rock which the gates of hell shall not prevail is namely that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God".......it's NOT that Jesus is God, a member of a trinity of co-equal persons which make up a singular God.

It was prophesied that these would make it so, that not believing in their trinity doctrine, one cannot even be called a Christian, and so it has become. They have taken upon themselves the wrong number, the number of man and is false doctrine, in this world raised to a kingdom of great power.

They have misconstrued that it was not that Jesus is God, but that God was 'in' Christ. The subtle difference which has the world deceived.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing it. I'll share mine but first I must say that I believe nobody can really speak as an authority on all of the nuances of the Trinity. It's fun to discuss as faithful Christians thirst for Godly knowledge.

I think of the Trinity this way. God created Jesus and the Holy Spirit for specific functions. They are, per my possible theory, his "avatars" for working on his Earthly creation. So God IS Jesus but Jesus is also God in the sense that God is in him. Just my theory, which I'm willing to modify.

 

[T25]

I'll consider the validity of the interpretations based on the versions of Bibles you referenced. God bless.

How about this translation?

Read Concordant New Testament Online - Concordant Publishing Concern

www.concordant.org

 

[T25]

From there we move to praying to the Virgin Mary, the came saints...

Only the Catholics did that, not those who stick to the original Bible.

 

[T25]

And yet so many Christians just totally ignore Jesus's sermon on the mount. And they ignore it on purpose because it allows them to hate.

We're ALL sinners, even faithful Christians. That's why we need Jesus, so that we can be freed from the slavery of our sin. That all applies to you and everybody else.

 

[Loulit01]

Only the Catholics did that, not those who stick to the original Bible.

That is incorrect.

 

[redbeer]

Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing it. I'll share mine but first I must say that I believe nobody can really speak as an authority on all of the nuances of the Trinity. It's fun to discuss as faithful Christians thirst for Godly knowledge.

I think of the Trinity this way. God created Jesus and the Holy Spirit for specific functions. They are, per my possible theory, his "avatars" for working on his Earthly creation. So God IS Jesus but Jesus is also God in the sense that God is in him. Just my theory, which I'm willing to modify.

The trinity is a doctrine of man, an invention with a 'mark' not compatible with the mark of God. Trinity is three persons, one God. Man was created on the 6th day in Genesis, being the number of man......repeating the number 6 three times is 666 and yet it is one number. Taking the trinity to heart is taking the wrong mark, imo. Find the mark of God and take that to heart.

 

[T25]

Good point but who did Jesus instruct us to pray to?

God the Father.

Mathew 6:5-6
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Jesus frequently deferred to the Father. After all, Jesus's mission was and is to reconcile EVERYTHING back to God.

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."

 

[T25]

That is incorrect.

Which other denominations teach praying to Mary?

 

[T25]

The trinity is a doctrine of man, an invention with a 'mark' not compatible with the mark of God. Trinity is three persons, one God. Man was created on the 6th day in Genesis, being the number of man......repeating the number 6 three times is 666 and yet it is one number. Taking the trinity to heart is taking the wrong mark, imo. Find the mark of God and take that to heart.

I believe in one God, the "Father", who also works on us through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As I said, I don't claim to understand everything about the so-called "Trinity" as I don't recall that term being used in the Bible. However, there is a special relationship between the Father, the son, and the holy spirit.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[redbeer]

I believe in one God, the "Father", who also works on us through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As I said, I don't claim to understand everything about the so-called "Trinity" as I don't recall that term being used in the Bible. However, there is a special relationship between the Father, the son, and the holy spirit.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

That's the crux, "One God" and to find who is this One God, we need to learn and follow the Christ. Finding "who" was this One God of Christ leads us to the truth. To follow Christ, we must have the same God. Man has invented a triune god and made it a doctrine which must be accepted to be a Christian in their minds. Yet, this was not the God of Christ and he never spoke as a trinitarian, but remained faithful to the 'mark of God'.

Stating three persons are one being, keeping a straight face only comes through indoctrination. It's popular in the Christian World of Churchianity to a doctrine which binds them all together.


(Mat 16:13) When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
(Mat 16:14) And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
(Mat 16:15) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
(Mat 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 16:18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[T25]

That's the crux, "One God" and to find who is this One God, we need to learn and follow the Christ. Finding "who" was this One God of Christ leads us to the truth. To follow Christ, we must have the same God. Man has invented a triune god and made it a doctrine which must be accepted to be a Christian in their minds. Yet, this was not the God of Christ and he never spoke as a trinitarian, but remained faithful to the 'mark of God'.

Stating three persons are one being, keeping a straight face only comes through indoctrination. It's popular in the Christian World of Churchianity to a doctrine which binds them all together.


(Mat 16:13) When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
(Mat 16:14) And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
(Mat 16:15) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
(Mat 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 16:18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I like your post and you make good points. It's not a doctrine that I delve too deeply into as I try to devote more time to other callings. I look forward to getting all the answers in Heaven!

 

[Loulit01]

Which other denominations teach praying to Mary?

You moved the goalposts.

Only the Catholics did that, not those who stick to the original Bible.

I was responding to the above as you know. Just admit you were wrong.

 

[T25]

You moved the goalposts.

I was responding to the above as you know. Just admit you were wrong.

You brought up Christianity praying to Mary. I said that only Catholics do that. You said I'm wrong. I requested names of Christian denominations that pray to Mary. Instead of answering in good faith you responded with garbage.

 

[LittleNipper]

I Corinthians 11:14 was written well after CHRIST had ascended and was directed to how believers should present themselves. JESUS might have taken the vow of the Nazarite The Nazirite vow, found in Numbers 6, is a voluntary dedication to God where individuals abstain from certain practices, including wine and grapes, and avoid contact with the dead. The other reality is that CHRIST roamed the countryside and likely wore HIS hair modestly long. HE most certainly didn't wear HIS hair like a Roman nor some Disco Dan