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[W: #18] Jesus is GOD

Yep, context is everything but some choose to ignore it...
 
Daisy said:
Yep, context is everything but some choose to ignore it...
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Actually, 7 out of 10 evangelicals who believe in the Trinity far exceed "some".

Context is everything indeed.
 
VySky said:
Actually, 7 out of 10 evangelicals who believe in the Trinity far exceed "some".

Context is everything indeed.
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Yep and Jesus said...

“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it;  whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it." Matthew 7:13,14
 
I wonder which group of believers, trinitarians or God alone, are the best at loving others ? This should be the most relevant thing to see which belief best reflects the Gospel message or the OT message.
 
Metanoia said:
I wonder which group of believers, trinitarians or God alone, are the best at loving others ? This should be the most relevant thing to see which belief best reflects the Gospel message or the OT message.
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Well, the trinitarians have always wanted to snuff the God onlys out...so there's that...
 
Daisy said:
Well, the trinitarians have always wanted to snuff the God onlys out...so there's that...
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The Maryland Toleration Act of 1649, all those years after Nicea does not bode well for trinitarians. Today, it's toned down to just being removed from church, labeled a heretic not being considered a Christian.....the hatred lingers on and on.....




"That whatsoever person or persons within this Province and the Islands thereunto helonging shall from henceforth blaspheme God, that is Curse him, or deny our Saviour Jesus Christ to bee the sonne of God, or shall deny the holy Trinity the father sonne and holy Ghost, or the Godhead of any of the said Three persons of the Trinity or the Unity of the Godhead, or shall use or utter any reproachfull Speeches, words or language concerning the said Holy Trinity, or any of the said three persons thereof, shalbe punished with death and confiscation or forfeiture of all his or her lands and goods to the Lord Proprietary and his heires."
 
Correct. The narrow gate is Christ on the cross.
 
Yet, no matter how fervently the coalition has tried to snuff it out it can't be done...truth always prevails...
 
Daisy said:
No, Jesus is God's Son...
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Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the father. Can’t be any more exact than that.

John 14:9
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
 
) Again, Jesus’ following explanation shows that this was so because he faithfully represented his Father, spoke the Father’s words, and did the Father’s works. (Joh 14:10, 11; compare Joh 12:28, 44-49.) It was on this same occasion, the night of his death, that Jesus said to these very disciples: “The Father is greater than I am.”—Joh 14:28
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002451
 
That does not correlate with what Jesus said at all.

He said if you have seen me you’ve seen the father. It speaks to equality
 
VySky said:
That does not correlate with what Jesus said at all.

He said if you have seen me you’ve seen the father. It speaks to equality
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Context...stop cherry picking...that's exactly what he said in the next 2 verses...Jesus’ following explanation shows that this was so because he faithfully represented his Father, spoke the Father’s words, and did the Father’s works...his Father is superior to him...

"The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works. Believe me that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me; otherwise, believe because of the works themselves" John 14:10,11
 
Again, those verses have no connection to John 14:9.

But I will add the verses you quote point to being equal with the Father. That they are one in the same.

Three in one.
 
VySky said:
Again, those verses have no connection to John 14:9.

But I will add the verses you quote point to being equal with the Father.

Three in one.
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lol...ok...deny it all you want...it's still true...the trinity is a pagan lie...
 
Daisy said:
lol...ok...deny it all you want...it's still true...the trinity is a pagan lie...
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John 14:10

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

Three in one.
 
VySky said:
John 14:10

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

Three in one.
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Nope...the spirit is not even mentioned...in fact few texts that happen to ever mention the Father, the Son and the holy spirit in the same context...Matthew 28:19; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14...
 
Is Jesus equal to God or lesser than God? Jesus once said: “I and the Father are one,” which seems to contradict his statement that “the Father is greater than I am.” (John 10:30; 14:28) To understand those verses correctly, we must examine what the Bible really says about Jehovah and Jesus rather than try to harmonize the verses with the Trinity dogma, which is not based on the Bible. The Bible shows that Jehovah is not only Jesus’ Father but also Jesus’ God, the One whom even Jesus worships. (Matthew 4:10; Mark 15:34; John 17:3; 20:17; 2 Corinthians 1:3) Jesus is not equal to God.

The context of Jesus’ statement “I and the Father are one” shows that he was talking about the oneness of purpose that he shared with his Father, Jehovah God. Jesus later said: “The Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.” (John 10:38) Jesus shared this unity of purpose with his followers as well, for he prayed to God about them: “I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me.”—John 17:22, 23.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502014102
 
Daisy said:
Nope...the spirit is not even mentioned...in fact few texts that happen to ever mention the Father, the Son and the holy spirit in the same context...Matthew 28:19; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14...
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Matthew 3:16-17

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;

17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
 
Try comprehending what you read...
 
Daisy said:
“The Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.
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That is false scripture.

Jesus said "I am in the father, and and the father is in me"
 
VySky said:
That is false scripture.

Jesus said "I am in the father, and and the father is in me"
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Jesus said what that means to be one...they are indeed in union with one another...same thought/deed/purpose...

"I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works," John 10:37,38
 
If Jesus is the father, who was he asking to forgive the people who were crucifying him? Did he forget who he was for a second?
 
Manc Skipper said:
If Jesus is the father, who was he asking to forgive the people who were crucifying him? Did he forget who he was for a second?
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God the father.

God the son

“When Jesus was dying on the cross, he cried, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me” (Matt. 27:46)? After Jesus resurrection from the dead, he appears to Mary Magdalene, and she immediately clings to Him. In response Jesus says to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God’” (John 20:17; cf. Rev. 3:2, 12). In each case, Jesus explicitly calls the Father “my God.” Jehovah’s Witnesses conclude from these passages (and others like them) that Jesus cannot possibly be God.

According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus cannot have a God if He is God! Implicit in this kind of assertion is the assumption of unitarianism. Unitarianism is the belief that God is only one person. Orthodox Jews, Muslims, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are all unitarians. By contrast, trinitarians believe that God is three distinct persons.

To a Jehovah’s Witness, who has already presupposed unitarianism, these passages can only mean one thing: Jesus is not God. Think about it. If person A calls person B “my God,” then logically speaking person A cannot be God. Of course, this argument only works ifunitarianism is true. But what if God isn’t one person? What if God is three persons? Notice how the force of the logical argument collapses.”

If the Son and the Father are both distinct members of the Godhead, which is the overwhelming testimony of Scripture, then there is nothing logically incoherent about God the Son calling God the Father “my God.”

Even though it’s not logically contradictory, it might still sound strange to some. Why would Jesus, who is God, call the Father “my God?”

If Jesus Is God, Why Does He Call the Father “My God?”

According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus cannot have a God if He is God.
www.str.org
 
ONENESS NOT EQUALITY

Clearly Jesus Christ was not claiming to be his Father’s equal. He himself stated that he acted, not in his own name, but in the ‘name of his Father.’ He recognized his Father’s superior position and authority, acknowledging that the “sheep” had been given to him by his Father. He pointedly said that ‘the Father is greater than anyone.’ At the same time the Father and the Son are “one” in purpose respecting the salvation of the “sheep.” That is, both are equally concerned about the “sheep,” not allowing anyone to snatch them out of their hand.

That Jesus referred—not to an equality of godship—but to a oneness of purpose and action is confirmed by his prayer recorded at John chapter 17. Jesus said: “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. They have now come to know that all the things you gave me are from you . . . I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those you have given me; because they are yours, and all my things are yours and yours are mine . . . Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.”—John 17:6-11.

Note that the thoughts voiced by Jesus in this prayer are similar to his words recorded at John chapter 10. In Joh chapter 17, Jesus again acknowledged that his disciples, his “sheep,” were given to him by the Father. So the kind of oneness referred to in both of these chapters is the same. From Jesus’ prayer we can see that Jesus and his Father are “one” in the same sense that his true followers can be “one.” (John 17:11) Obviously the faithful disciples of Jesus Christ could never become part of a triune God. However, they could be one in purpose and activity. Further proving that Jesus never claimed equality with his Father is the fact that, in his prayer, he addressed his Father as the “only true God” and spoke of himself as his Father’s “representative.”—John 17:3, 8.

But someone might object, arguing, ‘When Jesus said “I and the Father are one,” the Jews took it to mean that he was God, and Jesus did not deny this.’ But is that really the case? Why not examine the account?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1974644
 
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