[W:1539] NY Grand Jury votes to indict Donad Trump (1 Viewer)

[ElChupacabra]

Very insightful. Who could trust a legal system that a) sees the Attorney General investigating parents at a school board meeting as terrorists,, or b) sending the FBI to a former president's house to seize classified documents, or c) indicting a former president for paying hush money to a porn star.?

I'll stick the the bolded so as to not go off the thread topic. What lies underneath all of the noise, is this basic premise your question alludes to: should the law be overlooked because of someone's status (current or former) and/or potential implications politically. I've stated before that this case is one of the less relevant ones against Trump, and the ones that would have been better to start off with are the cases in Georgia and the one over the classified documents.

What I'm hearing the most right now is the idea that the Manhattan DA should have overlooked this because it's more trouble than it's worth, but since we don't know the details surrounding the charges, I don't feel comfortable making that determination at this point. What I do think is we should not be restricted in holding people accountable based on their status, because that just reinforces the idea of a two tiered justice system.

My hope is that your second paragraph is prescient because I, too, don't want to see Independents (who I think think more clearly than rabid Democrats) consider Trump as the GOP nominee next year.
And without votes from Independents, the GOP nominee will fail.

The GOP are in an interesting position because they are now seemingly forced to circle the wagons around the person they'd like to eject from the party; well, the establishment GOP anyway. I'm sure if the polling numbers weren't what they are, they would be throwing Trump under the biggest bus possible. It's pretty clear the GOP is inextricably tied to Trump's supporters, so they have no choice but to side with him. What that means for the hopefuls at this stage is that there's probably not much hope for them going forward.

DeSantis is still not comparable to Trump in terms of support in the party, and it doesn't look like there's going to be anyone coming up that will make the 2024 GOP primaries any different than 2016. I don't find DeSantis a convincing figure to take Trump head on; you don't start off on the positive side if you're already known as "Meatball Ron". What this comes down to is who can out "alpha male" the other, and DeSantis does not give that vibe off at all. What this likely means is another election with Trump as the GOP nominee, and I don't see that playing out differently than the recent Trump losses.

 

[post]

I can only hope if things get legally hotter for Trump, his followers will see their votes are not going to push him over the top as in 2016. I want to see the indictments for mishandling classified documents and political interference in Georgia carry a lot more weight than a tawdry misdemeanor involve hush money paid to a porn star.

You're repeating RWE talking points. Why do it?

Trump's People Have Attempted to Cover Up That He Cheated to Cover Up Cheating in 2016 at Least Six Times - emptywheel

Trump wailed last night that his "indication" was a matter of free and fair elections. He's right. It's about one of at least six efforts he and his agents have made to cover-up that he cheated to win in 2016.

www.emptywheel.net

March 31, 2023
"...Thanks to the former President for reminding us what the charges against him, in part, are about: That he cheated to win.

Whether it would have made a difference or not, Donald Trump believed it sufficiently important to lie to American voters about ****ing two women– both Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels — that both were paid in the last months of his 2016 campaign to prevent voters from finding out.

Paying his former sex partners to hide from voters that he cheated on Melania is not, itself, illegal.

Having corporations pay sex workers for the purpose of benefitting a political campaign is. The company that owned the National Enquirer paid for the first payment, to McDougal; Trump Organization, by reimbursing the payment that Michael Cohen made, eventually paid for the second payment, to Daniels.

The charges brought against Trump in NY reportedly relate, at least in part, to the second payment — to the treatment of the reimbursement to Cohen as a legal retainer rather than a reimbursement for a political donation. That is, the cheapskate billionaire, who could have legally paid off the women himself, allegedly covered up his cover-up...

..
A footnote in that discussion cites the Cohen plea, suggesting the 2016 conversations that Manafort lied to prosecutors in an attempt to spin pertained to these hush payments.

83 See United States v. Cohen, 18-cr-602 (S.D.N.Y. 2018); Information, United States v. Cohen, 18-cr602 (S.D.N.Y Aug. 21, 2018) (Doc. 2).

Unlike Cohen, of course, Manafort did get a pardon.

In the months after Cohen’s plea, Main DOJ attempted to interfere in the Cohen investigation repeatedly, as laid out in Geoffrey Berman’s book. They did so first on Rod Rosenstein’s orders, by demanding the SDNY rewrite Cohen’s statement of offense to hide the degree to which Trump ordered the hush payments (Rosenstein’s deputy, Ed O’Callaghan tried to eliminate all reference to Individual-1)..."

 

[Chomsky]

I, too, feel sorry for those who are stuck in our big cities and can't find a way to leave. They're mostly Democrats waiting for the next series of welfare benefits which will tie them even closer to the urban blight that put them there in the first place.

You are aware that poverty & drug addiction has become the domain of rural areas? And rural death rates eclipse that of cities?

Modern-day rural America is not Andy Taylor's Mayberry RFD. Stats don't lie.

Apparently you have never worked in large corporations populated by professional women, gay people, and people of color.

Where do you think those large corporations are located?

 

[Galactic Spin]

If defending him means that I want Trump to lose, as I have repeatedly stated, you have a strange way of looking at my defense.

Or someone isn't being totally honest with us.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

And for starters don't presume to tell me what I want.

The impeachment charges were valid. That they failed says impeachment of the Potus is a failed aspect of the American Experiment in Democracy. We can do without impeachment but we cannot do without the rule of law. The rule of law is the red line. When Maga transgresses the rule of law is when the sky will fall on 'em.

This process has shown its political failings because either party goes into hyper defense mode rather than weighing what it means in terms of holding presidents accountable for their actions.

 

[Ouroboros]

These will be actual jurors, not The Boss's henchmen.

And this time, Trump will have to speak under threat of perjury.

So, just for Trump, the Fifth Amendment can be suspended?

 

[Galactic Spin]

So, just for Trump, the Fifth Amendment can be suspended?

The 5th amendment was made for people like Trump.

 

[Chomsky]

How many opportunities have they had?

Reminds me of the joke about the flood!

Parable of the drowning man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"What do you want from me? I sent you two boats & a helicopter!"

 

[Fearandloathing]

It is frankly astounding how Trump easily transformed so many conservative men into grasping, weak, fawning wretches.

He tapped their inner child.

 

[it's just me]

I can have a home life and also hope for Donald Trump to face justice.

You sound like one of those people who obsess over Trump - you said it yourself - you "yearn" for it. Like the rest of these DP posters who every other word out of their mouths is Trump, Trump, Trump, or Fox News, Fox News, Fox News, or Tucker Carlson, Tucker Carlson, Tucker Carlson. You're just telling us who you're afraid of.

 

[Galactic Spin]

You sound like one of those people who obsess over Trump - you said it yourself - you "yearn" for it. Like the rest of these DP posters who every other word out of their mouths is Trump, Trump, Trump, or Fox News, Fox News, Fox News, or Tucker Carlson, Tucker Carlson, Tucker Carlson.

Um... this is a politics message board.

Trump was the last president and is the front runner for the 2024 gop nomination.

This weak troll tactic isn't going to fly, here.

 

[Ambig]

So, just for Trump, the Fifth Amendment can be suspended?

No idea what you're talking about. You think we can hold Trump down and manipulate his mouth muscles while pumping his chest?

Or something?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Trump will probably try and get some copies of his MUGSHOTS and reproduce them and sell them on line to his stupid followers and they are dumb enough to give him another couple of millions

Well, you do know that PMURT (a proudly British Virgin Islands company) is doing quite nicely with its line of

​

merchandise (currently not available at its Florida outlet) and its

​

(available at a discount through all reputable Goods Outlet Place locations).

Have a nice day

 

[Ambig]

You sound like one of those people who obsess over Trump

Well, he did try to violently overthrow the US government and is now trying to become the US president again.

So, yeah. I think all patriotic Americans should be obsessed with the clear and present danger of Donald Trump.

Not you? You're not a patriotic American?

- you said it yourself - you "yearn" for it. Like the rest of these DP posters who every other word out of their mouths is Trump, Trump, Trump, or Fox News, Fox News, Fox News, or Tucker Carlson, Tucker Carlson, Tucker Carlson. You're just telling us who you're afraid of.

Damned right I'm afraid of an amoral, psychopathic con man taking over the US government again.

Why aren't you?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Whatever it is, it's been a national trend since the nineties.

That's because all of those criminals knew that Donald John Trump {BBHN} would be elected in 2016 and again in 2024 - right?

 

[Fearandloathing]

Characterizing a man that is currently under indictment, with multiple indictments still looming (including indictments are trying to set aside the results of a free and fair election) as having "enormous baggage" is an "enormous understatement".... but any standards of reasonableness, Trump is disqualified on character to hold the office. He is a threat to national security.

Meanwhile, as a former dementia trainer, Biden is not senile nor does he suffer from outward signs of cognitive impairment. Trump's aforementioned criminal behavorial issues notwithstanding, Trump is also a sociopath that suffers from acute narcissistic personality disorder* (which is likely why he is facing multiple indictments for a multitude of crimes substantially involving fraud) is much more of a threat. So, this ain't tweedle dee vs tweedle dum. Its just the dummy that tweats alot.

I am glad we had this chat where I could clear this up for you.

* - I gave you only one cite on that. I have 50 more if you need.

My dad died in dementia. "Alzheimer's" had been mentioned for years and he had no idea who I was at the end.


I know the signs and see my doc at least twice a year.

Biden is careful. I am careful. At our age we walk OK, but swagger we don't and we often loose our footing, especially, around uneven ground. My doc assures me this is all age, and he will be the first to tell me when dementia is a concern.

Biden's wit! That's a sign that maybe things have slowed, but the motor still has horsepower. Wit requires and agile, quick response brain. He can still be a brilliant orator as he has shown

Frankly, Reagan was much more down that road than Biden will likely ever be. I believe his illness and it's possible threat to the nation was kept secret deliberately because they had no ay to deal with it.

 

[Ambig]

Um... this is a politics message board.

Trump was the last president and is the front runner for the 2024 gop nomination.

This weak troll tactic isn't going to fly, here.

It's weird, ain't it?

Stop! Don't talk about politics here in this place!!

Is it just me, or doesn't that sound pretty weird?

I've heard that cultists can get pretty angry when the Great Leader's name is being defiled by passing through the lips of outsiders... but surely that's not this?

 

[gboisjo]

The same Glenn Beck who called Donald Trump "a dangerous man" but did a 180 once he realized his business model could not sustain an anti-Trump sentiment?

That Glenn Beck?

Spineless hypocrites are the words that comes to mind, afraid of the giant orange clown.

I remember the job Trump did on Rubio during the debates years back, named him "sleepy" belittled, insulted him over and over again.

Six months later Rubio wanted to suck his dick, the GOP is loaded with these frightened, gutless types.

That our country be led by these squeamish, submissive excuses of men and women is a tragedy.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Spineless hypocrites are the words that comes to mind, afraid of the giant orange clown.

I remember the job Trump did on Rubio during the debates years back, named him "sleepy" belittled, insulted him over and over again.

Six months later Rubio wanted to suck his dick, the GOP is loaded with these frightened, gutless types.

That our country be led by these squeamish, submissive excuses of men and women is a tragedy.

I have said before that Trump has done a great favor for America. He's exposed the rats in the basement.

 

[soap box]

The polls are telling us Bragg and his witch hunt are simply politically motivated. Not that you believe polls that might disagree with your confirmation bias.

That's only true for voters that are already fooled by him. The country as a whole is different. , 50+% recognize that it's legit. That's not confirmation bias, it's what your link said.

 

[Chomsky]

Yeah, and his rants are edging toward criminality.

What would happen to me if I posted a picture of myself aiming a baseball bat at the head of my prosecutor? I'd be jailed within days.

The government has been weaponized to give Donald Trump a pass on his criminality. For a long time now.

He shoulda been arrested at his early rallies when he encouraged his followers to do violence to protesters in his crowds.

I would not describe the bolded as "edging towards criminality". I see a defendant unequivocally threatening a prosecutor. And, I'd like to see the defendant brought to task for it.

I grew-up in a working-class neighborhood where there was a lot of cops & firemen. Pretty much one (or more!) on every block. Often multiple family members. City & County union employment with good pensions were considered the cream-of-the-crop in blue-collar jobs, and everybody wanted one. And for some reason cops, often enough have kids that become States Attorneys. I've known a few, and still have several in my association. Consequently, I have little tolerance for the stuff Trump pulled.

Knowing the ethos of my local criminal justice system, I highly doubt my local prosecutors would tolerate what Trump did there. Why NYDA may tolerate it, I have no idea. But if they do, I believe they are wrong.

 

[Chomsky]

Sure you can. Erase his incitement speech on Jan6. Offer proof that he didn't sit there for hours, not lifting a hand to stop the violent Capitol invaders.

Convince me that his behavior over the past six years didn't really happen. (Heck, in my case, you'll have to go back about 30 years.)

I am an actual patriotic American, not just some guy who sticks the word in his forum name.

So... yeah... I've been at it for a long time. I love my country.

Bingo!

How can those that proclaim their patriotism & love for our country, not support the rule of law? Supporting the rule of law is the essence of Americanism, as it is supporting the Constitution. The two are intrinsically inextricable & inseparable.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Bingo!

How can those that proclaim their patriotism & love for our country, not support the rule of law? Supporting the rule of law is the essence of Americanism, as it is supporting the Constitution. The two are intrinsically inextricable & inseparable.

The first time I heard anything like that was after the Kent State murders and no one was even charged.

1969.

 

[Chomsky]

You're still defending him. We can all see that, you know.

I don't care much about politics. I just want the criminal to face justice. I want the Silent Majority to watch him speak under oath and to see all the evidence which will be presented.

A lot of them actually believe what the Fox propagandists are saying. They need to see the evidence and hear him testify. It'll be much worse than that first debate with Biden, in which Trump showed all of America his raging hatred.

As I say, I'm not much interested in partisan politics. All I want is for America to re-embrace honorable behavior in our leaders. We need to renounce the whole MAGA Nightmare.

Given the Dominion lawsuit has now been slated to proceed to trial, if the presiding judge televises the proceeding the same crowd supporting Trump's criminality may get another dose of reality. If they watch, that is. I notice Fox hasn't been covering their own lawsuit, it seems.

 

[EnigmaO01]

I think Desantis is worse. He’s like a pit viper. Trump is an idiot. Desantis is not. He’s mean for sport.

I do also believe DeSantis has some mental issues.