[W:#111] Is there anyone who wants to talk about Islam?

[NolanVoyd]

Please stop. Any more posts about Christianity will get you banned. Read the OP.

Can't talk about one Abrahamic religion without the others.

It's an apt comparison. Puts the discussion in context.

Christianity and Islam are both immoral and violence prone.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Is it the religion or the societies in which many Muslims are found that oppress women?

How do you tell the difference, when the societies are completely built and run based on Islam?

 

[NolanVoyd]

How do you tell the difference, when the societies are completely built and run based on Islam?

The two biggest Muslim nations, Indonesia and Pakistan, have both had female presidents.

 

[Galactic Spin]

Post-9/11, Islam got a horrible reputation in the West. Some of it came from misunderstanding the religion itself with fanatical applications of the religion.

The reputation wasn't so great before 9/11.

 

[Galactic Spin]

The two biggest Muslim nations, Indonesia and Pakistan, have both had female presidents.

Bhutto (prime Minister of pakistan) was a secularist and the first woman EVER elected to lead a majority Muslim country. She was later assassinated. 27 years after she was last in office, no other woman has been elected to her post.

Megawati Sukarnoputri was not elected to the office of president in Indonesia. She rose to that office from vice president ater the president was removed. She then was also quickly removed in the next election.​

Since their terms, both countries have moved in the direction of fanatical Islam.

 

[Galactic Spin]

Perhaps your experience may be influenced by your blatant Islamophobia?

Perhaps that's a vapid buzzword intended to end discussions you don't like?

 

[NolanVoyd]

Bhutto (prime Minister of pakistan) was a secularist and the first woman EVER elected to lead a majority Muslim country. She was later assassinated. 27 years after she was last in office, no other woman has been elected to her post.

Megawati Sukarnoputri was not elected to the office of president in Indonesia. She rose to that office from vice president ater the president was removed. She then was also quickly removed in the next election.​

Since their terms, both countries have moved in the direction of fanatical Islam.

I know all that.

Doesn't alter my point though.

 

[stevecanuck]

Is it the religion or the societies in which many Muslims are found that oppress women?

I don't think the cultural aspect can be ignored. However, the Qur'an is clearly written for men, and it would have been a departure from the 7th century Arabian lifestyle for it to start espousing equality. When inventing a new religion, it's probably best to leave as much unchanged as possible.

 

[Galactic Spin]

I know all that.

Doesn't alter my point though.

It sure does, if one is willing to look deeper than a single thought.

And there is much more to discuss. First, your example of a democratic choice in an election does not speak to the freedoms of women. Second, the fact that you had to cherry pick this fact out of context should be a red flag to anyone that the truth is much different than what is implied by this single fact.

 

[NolanVoyd]

It sure does.

Not even slightly.

I stated a simple fact.

That fact shows how all the generalizations don't work.

End of point.

 

[Galactic Spin]

Not even slightly.

I stated a simple fact.

That fact shows how all the generalizations don't work.

End of point.

Oh yes, and much more than slightly. Context matters to people who want the whole story.

Which, apparently, is not you, in this case. Sorry to have bothered you.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Oh yes, and much more than slightly. Context matters to people who want the whole story.

Which, apparently, is not you, in this case. Sorry to have bothered you.

The fact that the two most populous Muslim countries have had female presidents, shows how silly it is to paint with such a broad brush.

Period.

End of point.

 

[Galactic Spin]

But for those that DO want to look deeper than a single thought:

In Indonesia, sharia is creeping into many provinces. Hijabs are increasingly becoming g required, and fraternizing with men outside of marriage is increasingly becoming illegal. The wage and employment gap is staggering, and violence against women increases annually.

In Pakistan, the woman is regulated to a second class citizen, even at home. Forced marriage and very reduced access to education and employment are the norm.

 

[Galactic Spin]

The fact that the two most populous Muslim countries have had female presidents, shows how silly it is to paint with such a broad brush.

And then, when context is provided, it shows how horribly women have it in those countries because of Islam. Apparently the brush was just the right size.

But I definitely concede that moderates and secularists are pushing back in both countries. Let's take a moment to point out that their "moderation" is measure precisely by the degree to which they IGNORE Islam.

 

[NolanVoyd]

And then, when context is provided, it shows how horribly women have it in those countries because of Islam.

which has nothing to do with my point.

where did i say women were and still are treated well in those countries?

it is a fact that those countries had female presidents. Period.

the point is that its a cimplex issue and painting with a broad brush does a diservice.

Apparently the brush was just the right size.

No, it's too broad, because while awful to women in many ways they have also had female presidents.

 

[Galactic Spin]

which has nothing to do with my point.

Obviously it does, as anyone who can read my posts will see for themselves. I will let them decide.

 

[Galactic Spin]

No, it's too broad, because while awful to women in many ways they have also had female presidents.

It sure isn't. We are talking about islam, not muslims. Islam says what it says. No brush is too broad for that pile of evil ideas.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Obviously it does, as anyone who can read my posts will see for themselves. I will let them decide.

Funny how you ignored the part where I explained that it doesnt.

Here you go.

where did i say women were and still are treated well in those countries?

it is a fact that those countries had female presidents. Period.

the point is that its a cimplex issue and painting with a broad brush does a diservice.

 

[Galactic Spin]

Funny how you ignored the part where I explained that it doesnt.

Here you go.

where did i say women were and still are treated well in those countries?

Where did i say you did?

I don't play this game sorry. I made a larger point than yours. That's all.

 

[stevecanuck]

I hold the opinion that any religion can be interpreted in a way which supports fanatical violent political movements.

Tell that to a Jain.

There's that word "interpreted" again. Someone needs to show me how "Fight those who believe not in God" is an interpretation. How is it not just a flat-out, easy to understand command?

It really doesn't matter what the religion's history, membership, and written works say.

It would be hard to imagine a statement more out of touch with the creation of Islam than the above.

What matters is if some human can use some version of it to mislead other humans for power.

Such as? Please give me an example based on your knowledge of Islam that would constitute a "version" of it.

Humans are also why any religion you can think of has some ****ery in it's past.

Because in any group of humans there will inevitably rise someone who will upset things.

The only humans who have "upset things" regarding Islam are those who have added to it.

 

[NolanVoyd]

It sure isn't.

Yep too broad.

We are talking about islam, not muslims. Islam says what it says. No brush is too broad for that pile of evil ideas.

Nonsense.

Does the Bible also "say what it says".......funny how there are thousands of different denominations all of which disagree about what the Bible says and means.

That is true in Islam too.

Islam no more "says what it says' than Christianity does.

 

[stevecanuck]

Can't talk about one Abrahamic religion without the others.

It's an apt comparison. Puts the discussion in context.

Christianity and Islam are both immoral and violence prone.

Then start a thread comparing the two. You will not hijack this one.

 

[Galactic Spin]

Yep too broad.

Nonsense.

Does the Bible also "say what it says".......funny how there are thousands of different denominations all of which disagree about what the Bible says and means.

That is true in Islam too.

Islam no more "says what it says' than Christianity does.

I also will ignore the whataboutism. This thread is an attempt to have one discussion thread about Islam that is not derailed by liberals and their whataboutism. Even as a liberal, I will respect that rule.

 

[stevecanuck]

The two biggest Muslim nations, Indonesia and Pakistan, have both had female presidents.

How does that change what the Qur'an says?

 

[Galactic Spin]

How does that change what the Qur'an says?

Interestingly enough, his point demonstrates what can happen when Islam is ignored or reformed. So maybe he is on the same page without realizing it.