[W:1103] Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack on the country - Live Thread.

[W_Heisenberg]

Historically, Muslims got along fine with Jews and it was European Christians who most persecuted Jews. The recent antipathy is mainly because of the Zionist project in Palestine.

This is basically pro-Islamist, anti-Israeli propaganda.

Jews had better protections, legal rights, and security in Muslim regions during the Middle Ages than Jews in Europe. But they still lived as second-class citizens, and it's not something any human in a modern society would tolerate today. So, to suggest that everything would be peachy keen for the Jews if Israel did not exist is false.

The problem is not the fact that Israel exists. The problem is that people want to murder Jews and destroy the state of Israel.

 

[Jack Fabulous]

Let’s then refer to fanatical Zionists rather than the Jews.

I'm sure you have all kinds of names for them.

 

[stevecanuck]

There are many peaceful people who are Muslim, people who do not choose the path of violence. It is certainly not an inevitability of the religion. You’re talking about 1.8 billion people who are Muslim and the overwhelming majority of them were not involved in the attack.

The Qur'an explicitly tells Muslims to "fight [unbelievers]" in 9:29, and that to get into heaven they have to "fight in the cause of Allah. Kill and be killed" in 9:111. The fact that those quotes come from surah 9 is no small detail. It was the last surah received from Allah (or conjured up by Mohamed, depending on your beliefs) and as such it demonstrates the end point of 22 years of the evolution of Islam. ALL of the Qur'an's commands to fight come from the last 10 year period. Once it was turned into a warrior religion, that message began to dominate.

 

[LessBiased?]

This is basically pro-Islamist, anti-Israeli propaganda.

Jews had better protections, legal rights, and security in Muslim regions during the Middle Ages than Jews in Europe. But they still lived as second-class citizens, and it's not something any human in a modern society would tolerate today. So, to suggest that everything would be peachy keen for the Jews if Israel did not exist is false.

The problem is not the fact that Israel exists. The problem is that people want to murder Jews and destroy the state of Israel.

Counterfactually, if Jews had not come into Palestine and Israel had not been established, I don’t think you’d see significant friction between Jews and Muslims, and I think you’d see a lot less friction between Muslims and the West. The Zionist project is one the worst things that has happened in modern world history. Jews themselves would have been better off if they hadn’t done it.

 

[stevecanuck]

I don’t think it is. The children in Gaza were not flourishing prior to the attack. This isn’t the first time Israel blew up schools and hospitals in Gaza. The way Israel has treated those in Gaza and the West Bank is not virtuous. And it’s not that I blame them, because what they’ve had to deal with is terrible. But this is not something I see as black and white.

I forget who said this, but it's true - If Palestinians put down their weapons there would be no more war. If Israelis put down their weapons there would be no more Israel.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I haven’t seen confirmation that babies were decapitated or how many people were involved in that. If that happened, that was horrific and counter to the interests of Hamas and the Palestinians.

President Biden confirmed in a short speech yesterday that he personally saw the images.

Do you not believe President Biden?

But let’s be real - in war where passions are flaring, these kinds of horrific things have happened throughout history.

Yes, let's put these sorts of barbaric acts into context:

People like the Mongols engaged in this activity during what is considered the worst period in human civilization, in terms of violence. Specifically, during the Mongol invasions, a higher proportion of the human population died due to violence than during any other recorded period in human history.

 

[LessBiased?]

I'm sure you have all kinds of names for them.

I admire what Jews have accomplished and don’t dislike people because of their religion.

Jews are extremely clannish and have outlandish ideas about being chosen people, having a special covenant with a sky-god, and having a promised land, but if the Jews don’t bother anyone else, no one should bother them - live and let live. The Holocaust was horrible beyond description.

My beef is with the Zionists who caused all this mess. Trying to take all that land, by force, from people who were there for hundreds of years was never going to go well.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

All humans are animals at our cores, even if we do things like write poetry and go to the moon.

No, humans are humans to our cores, and we are responsible for our actions, all of them.

And decapitating babies is one of the most evil acts a human can engage in. And there is nothing that can justify it. And to be honest, I would be reluctant to be physically present in the same room as someone who expresses the kind of opinion you just now expressed.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I admire what Jews have accomplished and don’t dislike people because of their religion.

Jews are extremely clannish and have outlandish ideas about being chosen people, having a special covenant with a sky-god, and having a promised land, but if the Jews don’t bother anyone else, no one should bother them - live and let live. The Holocaust was horrible beyond description.

My beef is with the Zionists who caused all this mess. Trying to take all that land, by force, from people who were there for hundreds of years was never going to go well.

Israel isn't going anywhere, and it's time you accept it.

 

[Sword 1944]

Good news from Kibbutz Nir Am.

25 year old female head of security mobilized and they killed 25 Hamas fighters attacking the kibbutz. She got 5 herself. True hero.

Israeli woman, 25, hailed as a hero for killing terrorists, leading team that saved kibbutz from Hamas

The Hamas was no match for the 25-year-old woman — who saved an entire kibbutz from harm by leading a team of residents who killed more than 20 advancing terrorists.

nypost.com

Sounds like another ghost of Kiev nonsense or the Ukrainian Granny who took Russian Drones down with jars of pickles.

 

[LessBiased?]

No, humans are humans to our cores, and we are responsible for our actions, all of them.

And decapitating babies is one of the most evil acts a human can engage in. And there is nothing that can justify it. And to be honest, I would be reluctant to be physically present in the same room as someone who expresses the kind of opinion you just now expressed.

I’m not condoning decapitating babies! I’m analyzing why people do what they do. The Israelis aren’t any less inherently savage than Hamas or any other group, they just have different resources available to them for warfare.

 

[Ethel2]

I don’t think it is. The children in Gaza were not flourishing prior to the attack. This isn’t the first time Israel blew up schools and hospitals in Gaza. The way Israel has treated those in Gaza and the West Bank is not virtuous. And it’s not that I blame them, because what they’ve had to deal with is terrible. But this is not something I see as black and white.

What is happening to all of the people in Gaza IS terrible-and it’s going to get worse before it gets better.
But let’s put the blame exactly where it belongs: no massacre =no bombing of Gaza. The Hamas terrorists did this to their own people. They had to know that if they massacre innocent unarmed civilians including children and babies the response was going to be significant. So in the short term Hamas screwed themselves.
The longer term issues remain and in many ways I sympathize with the Palestinians. They had their land stolen (that’s history and is a done deal) and the fact that they continue to have their land stolen and are forced to live in squalid conditions isn’t fair imo. However it’s not going to change until they recognize the right of Israel to exist and denounce violence.
That’s the reality of the situation. You don’t have to like it.

 

[Sword 1944]

No, humans are humans to our cores, and we are responsible for our actions, all of them.

And decapitating babies is one of the most evil acts a human can engage in. And there is nothing that can justify it. And to be honest, I would be reluctant to be physically present in the same room as someone who expresses the kind of opinion you just now expressed.

So would i if it happened but i doubt it did, the accusation was from a crazed IDF reservist and settler who called for a palestinian village to be wiped out.
The White House on Thursday shut down a reporter's question concerning the authenticity of photos released earlier in the day showing dead Israeli children butchered by Hamas.

The exchange came during the White House press briefing when National Security Counsel spokesperson John Kirby was asked if the U.S. had independently verified the photos posted on X earlier in the day by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu showing the bloodied body of one baby and the burned corpses of two other children.

"I don't think we're going to be in the business of having to validate of approve those images. They're coming from the prime minister of Israel, and we have absolutely no reason to doubt their authenticity," Kirby said, appearing disturbed at the suggestion the photos could be fake.

 

[LessBiased?]

Israel isn't going anywhere, and it's time you accept it.

I do accept it. Israel has no ‘right’ to exist, but now it does exist and it’s too big and powerful to go away. But they’ll never have peace if they don’t make a FAIR deal with the Palestinians. The Palestinians aren’t going to go down without a serious fight.

 

[Plasmaball]

The blunder is in rewarding those guilty of kidnapping a ransom of 6B. To reward such criminality by Iran will only establish the practice as a business with huge profits.

They put rules on the money which is now frozen. This wasn't like ppp where anyone could ask for money no strings

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Counterfactually, if Jews had not come into Palestine and Israel had not been established, I don’t think you’d see significant friction between Jews and Muslims, and I think you’d see a lot less friction between Muslims and the West.

There is nothing that can be done about that now, whatever your opinion is of Israel's right to exist.

The Zionist project is one the worst things that has happened in modern world history.

It's definitely a problem, but to describe it as one of the worse things to happen in modern world history? Seriously?

It might be one of the most humiliating things to happen to Muslims, especially Arab Muslims, in modern world history (as it is a near-constant reminder that they are no longer the great civilization they once were), but to describe it as one of the worst things in modern world history seems kind of silly.

And is it really the end of the world for Muslims or Arab Muslims to have to live next to Israel?

Jews themselves would have been better off if they hadn’t done it.

No, this isn't true. The Jews suffer today for their descendants. Just as we all do for our own.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I’m not condoning decapitating babies! I’m analyzing why people do what they do. The Israelis aren’t any less inherently savage than Hamas or any other group, they just have different resources available to them for warfare.

This isn't true. When Hamas began this war they could have targeted Israeli soldiers and military installations. Instead, they deliberately chose to murder civilians, concert-goers at a peace festival, and innocent babies.

At this point, I am beginning to form the opinion that you are intentionally lying and not arguing in good faith.

 

[Ethel2]

Counterfactually, if Jews had not come into Palestine and Israel had not been established, I don’t think you’d see significant friction between Jews and Muslims, and I think you’d see a lot less friction between Muslims and the West. The Zionist project is one the worst things that has happened in modern world history. Jews themselves would have been better off if they hadn’t done it.

Dumb post
Had the Jews not colonized the land Israel now sit on they would have been exterminated in Eastern Europe.
That was the main reason the moved. Learn some history.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I do accept it. Israel has no ‘right’ to exist,

Well, this is what many Muslim Arabs believe as well...

but now it does exist and it’s too big and powerful to go away. But they’ll never have peace if they don’t make a FAIR deal with the Palestinians.

They cannot make a fair deal with the Palestinians so long as religious extremists like the current government of Iran continue to fund and support Hamas.

The Palestinians aren’t going to go down without a serious fight.

Israel does not need nor want to eradicate the Palestinians.

Israel needs to eliminate Hamas as a functioning organization. And this will not be easy, but this is what Israel must do.

 

[Ethel2]

Actually learning from the current reality tells us that the current Netanyahu and Ben Gvir type government’s whole goal is to drive Palestinians completely out through means that looks good on camera.

There’s no evidence of that.
If the Palestinians simply accept reality and move on their plight would be greatly improved

 

[LessBiased?]

There is nothing that can be done about that now, whatever your opinion is of Israel's right to exist.



It's definitely a problem, but to describe it as one of the worse things to happen in modern world history? Seriously?

It might be one of the most humiliating things to happen to Muslims, especially Arab Muslims, in modern world history (as it is a near-constant reminder that they are no longer the great civilization they once were), but to describe it as one of the worst things in modern world history seems kind of silly.

And is it really the end of the world for Muslims or Muslim Arabs to have to live next to Israel?



No, this isn't true. The Jews suffer today for their descendants. Just as we all do for our own.

It's one of the worst things to happen in world history because of the problems it caused for the rest of the world.

The population of Israel is about 9 million, which is about 0.1% of the world population.

 

[Desert Storm]

There isnt much left of Gaza

 

[LessBiased?]

Dumb post
Had the Jews not colonized the land Israel now sit on they would have been exterminated in Eastern Europe.
That was the main reason the moved. Learn some history.

That's your counterfactual guess. I think you're wrong. You don't know how much history I know, so maybe save the personal attack.

 

[Ethel2]

I do accept it. Israel has no ‘right’ to exist, but now it does exist and it’s too big and powerful to go away. But they’ll never have peace if they don’t make a FAIR deal with the Palestinians. The Palestinians aren’t going to go down without a serious fight.

“Israel has no ‘right’ to exist,”

 

[Irredentist]

This isn't true. When Hamas began this war they could have targeted Israeli soldiers and military installations. Instead, they deliberately chose to murder civilians, concert-goers at a peace festival, and innocent babies.

At this point, I am beginning to form the opinion that you are lying and not arguing in good faith.

Hamas did target Israeli soldiers and military installations, in addition to Israeli civilians. They deliberately killed people in the most horrific ways possible, because they wanted to elicit an emotional response. These aren't just random acts of barbarism; they're bait. Hamas leadership knows that Israel is going to crackdown hard. They want it to happen. Hamas wants to lure the IDF into an urban battle for Gaza, and it looks like Israel is going to take the bait.