[W: #11] How important is the Pope? (1 Viewer)

[ataraxia]

He is much more than a ceremonial figurehead but he is also fallible unless and until speaking ex cathedra. Catholics are not bound by anything he says unless it is spoken ex cathedra. That was always a big problem with Francis. He had a habit of regularly speaking without thinking and sowed a lot of confusion and error. But he never once made an ex cathedra pronouncement.

So how is that different than King Charles?

 

[Napoleon]

So how is that different than King Charles?

Nobody cares what King Charles thinks about anything. A Pope, even when speaking in error, is highly influential. The point is you can’t hold Catholics to just anything a Pope blurts out off the cuff.

 

[ataraxia]

Nobody cares what King Charles thinks about anything. A Pope, even when speaking in error, is highly influential. The point is you can’t hold Catholics to just anything a Pope blurts out off the cuff.

Not sure how influential. For example, despite the previous pope basically warning in as strong terms as possible about Donald Trump's policies, most American Catholics still voted for him.

Catholic Voters Favor Trump Over Harris Nationally and in Swing States, Exit Polls Show

Trump also won 90% of voters who believe abortion should be illegal in all or most cases and Harris won 9% of voters who held that view.

www.ncregister.com

Pope rebukes Trump administration over immigrant deportations and appears to aim directly at Vance

The U.S. border czar has pushed back against Pope Francis' criticism of the U.S. mass deportation of migrants plan.

apnews.com

 

[VySky]

About as important to me as a ham sandwich.

 

[Nickyjo]

He is much more than a ceremonial figurehead but he is also fallible unless and until speaking ex cathedra. Catholics are not bound by anything he says unless it is spoken ex cathedra, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it isnt influential. That was always a big problem with Francis. He had a habit of regularly speaking without thinking and sowed a lot of confusion and error. But he never once made an ex cathedra pronouncement.

But the Pope’s comments can have an effect on Catholics, even when not formerly redefining doctrine. In Francis’s case his words on gays and migrants likely caused Catholics and other Christians to look more favorably on those groups, though I can see how his comments on the former could sow some confusion, tho the latter have Mathew 25 backing them up.

 

[Napoleon]

Not sure how influential. For example, despite the previous pope basically warning in as strong terms as possible about Donald Trump's policies, most American Catholics still voted for him.

Catholic Voters Favor Trump Over Harris Nationally and in Swing States, Exit Polls Show

Trump also won 90% of voters who believe abortion should be illegal in all or most cases and Harris won 9% of voters who held that view.

www.ncregister.com

As noted, Catholics were/are not obligated to Francis’ verbal diarrhea. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t influential. His error caused the biggest Catholic civil war since Vatican II and arguably surpassed it. Far left factions in the Church latched on to everything he said and had selective hearing when the Vatican subsequently issued corrections.

 

[ataraxia]

As noted, Catholics were/are not obligated to Francis’ verbal diarrhea. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t influential. His error caused the biggest Catholic civil war since Vatican II and arguably surpassed it.

Haha. I don't think it's Pope Francis they have a problem with. It's Jesus. This is the version of Jesus they prefer:

 

[Napoleon]

Haha. I don't think it's Pope Francis they have a problem with. It's Jesus. This is the version of Jesus they prefer:

Contrary to what the left believes and the error Francis often spoke, Jesus was not an anything goes man. Francis knew that which is why the Vatican frequently walked back what he said and why he never once tried to change the Doctrine of the Church to align with his verbal diarrhea.

 

[upsideguy]

No. 1.3 billion people tick the box that says they're Catholic. That doesn't make them Catholic.

Shocker: 72% of Catholics Don’t Go to Sunday Mass?

‘The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. ... Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.’ (CCC 2181)

www.ncregister.com

That would also be true of Christians, in general, and I suspect all religions. Many see religion as a cultural identity rather than a description of who they actually are.

Contrary to what the left believes and the error Francis often spoke, Jesus was not an anything goes man. Francis knew that which is why the Vatican frequently walked back what he said and why he never once tried to change the Doctrine of the Church to align with his verbal diarrhea.

That is absolutely correct. But, by the standards of civilization at the time and civilization today, Christ was a counter-cultural revolutionary who offended people in power, for which he was rejected and put to death. Even today, by 21st cultural standards, Jesus was pretty woke.

If you align the values and teachings of Christ to the Republican platform, you would see the Republican platform, particularly Donald Trump, are quite misaligned with Christ's teachings. Many on the right had a difficultly with the Pope because he spoke biblical truths which made Trump supporters very uncomfortable. Again, read Matthew 25, particularly verses 34 to 46, and think about the Republican platform as you do....

 

[ataraxia]

Contrary to what the left believes and the error Francis often spoke, Jesus was not an anything goes man. Francis knew that which is why the Vatican frequently walked back what he said and why he never once tried to change the Doctrine of the Church to align with his verbal diarrhea.

Agree that Jesus was certainly not an anything goes kinda man. He would have found Donald Trump absolutely horrifying example of everything he taught against- an embodiment of the 7 deadly sins.

If that's what you want, you may need to start shopping around for something other than Catholicism or even Christianity which would reflect your views better- because it doesn't look like the new Pope is going to be much more to your liking either. You have clearly left Christianity far behind.

"Pope Leo XIV signalled on Saturday he would continue with the vision and reforms of Pope Francis, telling the world's Catholic cardinals the late pontiff left a "precious legacy" that must carry on."

https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-leo-tells-cardinals-they-must-continue-precious-legacy-pope-francis-2025-05-10/

Pope Leo XIV’s first address draws similarities to Pope Francis’ papacy while preserving forsaken traditions

Pope Leo XIV immediately draws both similarities and differences to Pope Francis' 12-year papacy.

www.wfiwradio.com

 

[Napoleon]

That would also be true of Christians, in general, and I suspect all religions. Many see religion as a cultural identity rather than a description of who they actually are.


That is absolutely correct. But, by the standards of civilization at the time and civilization today, Christ was a counter-cultural revolutionary who offended people in power, for which he was rejected and put to death. Even today, by 21st cultural standards, Jesus was pretty woke.

I would say that is wrong thinking. In fact, one of the biggest takeaways from the Gospels is that Jesus was falsely accused of being a counter-cultural revolutionary and that this false accusation is what ultimately led to his crucifixion. Do not mistake the mercy and compassion of Christ for permissiveness. Sin is still sin.

If you align the values and teachings of Christ to the Republican platform, you would see the Republican platform, particularly Donald Trump, are quite misaligned with Christ's teachings. Many on the right had a difficultly with the Pope because he spoke biblical truths which made Trump supporters very uncomfortable. Again, read Matthew 25, particularly verses 34 to 46, and think about the Republican platform as you do....

The left tends to truncate the teachings of Christ. Mercy and compassion is only a snippet of his teaching. Much to the chagrin of the left, Jesus did not say go and whore some more when he secured the release of the adulteress in the book of John. He said, “…go, and sin no more.” Jesus was also abundantly clear that he was not there to judge or change the laws of man. As he famously said when questioned on this by the disciples of the Pharisees in Matthew 22:20-21, “And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.”

In the book of Acts (chapter 16), we find Paul invoking Roman citizenship in his complaint that he and Silas had been jailed without trial. Yet neither tried to escape when given the opportunity. A prime example of the core message that, despite how inherently flawed man’s laws are, we are not to behave lawlessly.

Pope Francis spoke error in his attempts at outreach. If you’re looking for a Church that will ignore or affirm all of your life choices then the Catholic Church is not right for you. Try the Protestants. I hear the Methodists are loosey-goosey these days. Just keep in mind that the Catholic Church has an altar and Protestants have a stage. That should tell you all you need to know.

 

[Bullseye]

No. 1.3 billion people tick the box that says they're Catholic. That doesn't make them Catholic.

Shocker: 72% of Catholics Don’t Go to Sunday Mass?

‘The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. ... Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.’ (CCC 2181)

www.ncregister.com

Your entitle to an opinion - even a vivid one.

 

[bomberfox]

Personally? Not really that important, to others a yuuuge deal.

 

[Loulit01]

I would say that is wrong thinking. In fact, one of the biggest takeaways from the Gospels is that Jesus was falsely accused of being a counter-cultural revolutionary and that this false accusation is what ultimately led to his crucifixion. Do not mistake the mercy and compassion of Christ for permissiveness. Sin is still sin.

The left tends to truncate the teachings of Christ. Mercy and compassion is only a snippet of his teaching. Much to the chagrin of the left, Jesus did not say go and whore some more when he secured the release of the adulteress in the book of John. He said, “…go, and sin no more.” Jesus was also abundantly clear that he was not there to judge or change the laws of man. As he famously said when questioned on this by the disciples of the Pharisees in Matthew 22:20-21, “And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.”

In the book of Acts (chapter 16), we find Paul invoking Roman citizenship in his complaint that he and Silas had been jailed without trial. Yet neither tried to escape when given the opportunity.

A prime example of the core message that, despite how inherently flawed man’s laws are, we are not to behave lawlessly.

There's so much wrong with this post I'm at a loss. But just to use the above as an example, if no one behaved lawlessly we'd all be sipping tea and singing God save the King. So please take this simple-minded nonsense elsewither.

Pope Francis spoke error in his attempts at outreach. If you’re looking for a Church that will ignore or affirm all of your life choices then the Catholic Church is not right for you. Try the Protestants. I hear the Methodists are loosey-goosey these days. Just keep in mind that the Catholic Church has an altar and Protestants have a stage. That should tell you all you need to know.

 

[Rexedgar]

An anachronism, imo.

 

[Cameron]

Most are either cafeteria Catholics or poor and uneducated. For example, the last country in Europe to allow abortion was Catholic Ireland. Even they ignore church teachings. Catholicism is growing fastest in Africa and South America among the very poor.

Yet FoxNews/Pravda is much more influential than the Pope.

Accepting all of this is true, I don't see how it makes the Pope unimportant. There is no scenario in which the leader of a billion+ ideological group does not qualify as hugely important.

 

[Loulit01]

Accepting all of this is true, I don't see how it makes the Pope unimportant. There is no scenario in which the leader of a billion+ ideological group does not qualify as hugely important.

We can discuss it, but we'd have to define "important." For example, how much of a difference does the Pope make in the daily lives of most Catholics? Does it matter that we have a new Pope? Will most Catholics change anything significant in their lives because this Pope is different than the last Pope?
I don't think so.

 

[Cameron]

We can discuss it, but we'd have to define "important." For example, how much of a difference does the Pope make in the daily lives of most Catholics? Does it matter that we have a new Pope? Will most Catholics change anything significant in their lives because this Pope is different than the last Pope?
I don't think so.

I think if that is your definition the only "important" person in the world today is Donald Trump.

 

[Loulit01]

I think if that is your definition the only "important" person in the world today is Donald Trump.

Why on earth would you think that? What's your definition of an important person?

 

[Cameron]

Why on earth would you think that? What's your definition of an important person?

I was trying to think of someone who satisfied the impossibly high parameters by which you deem the Pope to not be an important person.

I think an important person is someone whose views and actions many people deem significant. The Pope easily meets that definition. Indeed, he would easily be characterized as one of the most important figures in the world.

 

[Serenity]

Considering he's the spiritual leader of Catholics around the world, I imagine he's pretty important to them. Particularly those who are practicing Catholics.

 

[Cameron]

For example, how much of a difference does the Pope make in the daily lives of most Catholics?

Why limit it to Catholics? The Catholic Church provides billions of dollars worth of charity work every year, often to non-Catholics, that unquestionably makes a difference in people's daily lives. The Pope has ultimate control and oversight over that work.

 

[Loulit01]

Accepting all of this is true, I don't see how it makes the Pope unimportant. There is no scenario in which the leader of a billion+ ideological group does not qualify as hugely important.

This is what I'm discussing. You brought up the Pope, so I'm talking about the Pope. You don't want to talk about the Pope? Fine. But I'm not going to chase the goalposts all over the field.

 

[Cameron]

This is what I'm discussing. You brought up the Pope, so I'm talking about the Pope. You don't want to talk about the Pope? Fine. But I'm not going to chase the goalposts all over the field.

Come on Lou. I only mentioned Trump to illustrate how the reasons you were giving for denying that the Pope is important don’t make sense, and would eliminate essentially everyone in the entire world. If you don’t want to, or think you can’t, defend your argument, that’s fine, but don’t act like I’m somehow making tangential points or changing goalposts. I am directly responding to your own reasoning.

 

[nota bene]

I see. So basically he is a ceremonial figurehead- much like King Charles or something. OK. I can see that.

But that means he's not THAT important.

One of the most unique aspects of the Pope’s political power is his role as the head of the Holy See, the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Catholic Church. The Holy See is recognized as a sovereign entity in international law, separate from Vatican City itself, and it maintains diplomatic relations with over 180 countries. The Holy See sends and receives ambassadors, known as apostolic nuncios, and participates in major international organizations such as the United Nations.

The Pope’s diplomatic influence is considerable. Popes have historically acted as mediators in international conflicts, and their moral authority gives them a unique platform to engage in global diplomacy. For example, Pope John Paul II played a significant role in the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, particularly in his native Poland. His support for the Solidarity movement and his calls for freedom and human rights were instrumental in undermining the legitimacy of the communist regime. https://scientificorigin.com/how-po...-political-and-global-influence-of-the-papacy

The article linked above discusses the soft power of the papacy and the pope's role as a global advocate for peace, social justice, especially for the marginalized.