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[W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Angel

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Re: The issue @ hand

I don't think it's possible to discuss abortion in the current US without addressing Roe v. Wade & its antecedents. I think you've sidelined yourself here, as far as having much impact on the ongoing debates in re.
"Impact on the ongoing debates"? Never entertained such an idea. Nice talking with you.
 

Angel

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Re: The issue @ hand

The title is Abortion Semantics: Unborn Children. After clearing away the name calling in your opening post,
you say you are going discuss


How words like "personhood" and "killing" are used by the anti-abortion movement does have a place in a discussion about abortion semantics. It may be bitter but it is not abusive to point our how the law and culture have been changed by this calculated manipulation of words.
Do you wish to discuss "personhood" and "killing" with me?
And "how the law and culture have been changed by this calculated manipulation of words"?
I'm open to such a discussion.
 

weaver2

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Re: The issue @ hand

I'm not in the least interested in refuting the argument in the legal context. I'm not opposed to legal abortion; in fact I'm for it. I'm solely interested in the moral question.
US code 01841 defining a ZEF as a human being or unborn baby makes abortion an unlawful killing or murder of a human being. It is a necessary first step in overturning Roe v Wade, allowing states, politically dominated by Republicans, to take reproductive decision making away from women. Approval of this code by repeatedly stating women are killing 1M human beings a year is essentially condemning legal abortion as immoral.

The moral question is not complicated. Legalized abortion does not prevent those who believe abortion is the immoral killing of babies from following their belief. Banning abortion because some believe it's immoral prevents the 75% of child bearing women from accessing a medical procedure they do not consider to be immoral.

Several years ago in the interests of good health a couple of cities banned soft drinks over 16oz. Conservatives riled and rallied against the law, saying that government was forcing its morality about good eating habits on them. They were right it was wrong, just as it is wrong for them to enforce their morality about abortion.

It's not complicated. No one and no law can prevent anti-abortion advocates from acting on their belief that abortion is immoral. No one and no law should prevent women from getting an abortion.
 
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Angel

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Re: The issue @ hand

US code 01841 defining a ZEF as a human being or unborn baby makes abortion an unlawful killing or murder of a human being. It is a necessary first step in overturning Roe v Wade, allowing states, politically dominated by Republicans, to take reproductive decision making away from women. Approval of this code by repeatedly stating women are killing 1M human beings a year is essentially condemning legal abortion as immoral.

The moral question is not complicated. Legal abortion does not prevent those who believe it is the immoral killing of babies from following their belief. Banning abortion because some believe it's immoral prevents the 75% of child bearing women from accessing a medical procedure they do not consider to be immoral.

Several years ago in the interests of good health a couple of cities banned soft drinks over 16oz. Conservatives riled and rallied against the law, saying that government was forcing its morality about good eating habits on them. They were right it was wrong, just as it is wrong for them to enforce their morality about abortion.

It's not complicated. No one and no law can prevent anti-abortion advocates from acting on their belief that abortion is immoral. No one and no law should prevent women from getting an abortion.
Why are you telling me all this?
 

weaver2

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Re: The issue @ hand

Why are you telling me all this?
Angel: I'm not opposed to legal abortion; in fact I'm for it.
"... a license to kill, and kill they do, 50M human beings ...." Using anti-abortion terminology instead of medical or legal terminology shows opposition to abortion not support.


I'm solely interested in the moral question.
Why? It's not complicated. Legalized abortion doesn't interfere with your anti-abortion morality.
 

Angel

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Re: The issue @ hand

"... a license to kill, and kill they do, 50M human beings ...." Using anti-abortion terminology instead of medical or legal terminology shows opposition to abortion not support.

Why? It's not complicated. Legalized abortion doesn't interfere with your anti-abortion morality.
I use anti-abortion terminology because I am anti-abortion. The legal terminology is "abortion," I believe, and the medical terminology is "termination of pregnancy" or "removal of the X before viability," though I welcome correction on this score. Neither the legal nor the medical terminology advances the moral understanding of the practice.

Your last point -- "Legalized abortion doesn't interfere with your anti-abortion morality" -- is correct, and again I remind you that I am pro-choice in the matter and would not have abortion criminalized. But it is also correct to say that my "anti-abortion morality" does not interfere with legalized abortion. I simply want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is.
 

weaver2

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Re: The issue @ hand

I simply want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is.
It is so comforting to know that men take their job of the morality instructors of women so seriously that they are willing to spend almost unlimited time telling women about their responsibility to recognize abortion as a moral choice.




Now, this may co as a complete supprise to you but your tortured philosophizing really isn’t necessary. Women already recognize their responsibility for pregnancy, abortion, birthing, nursing and changing diapers. And until you get pregnant and have the same responsibilities why don’t you just shut up abot what morals women should have and do something helpful like not trying to close down PP.
 

Angel

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Re: The issue @ hand

It is so comforting to know that men take their job of the morality instructors of women so seriously that they are willing to spend almost unlimited time telling women about their responsibility to recognize abortion as a moral choice.

Now, this may co as a complete supprise to you but your tortured philosophizing really isn’t necessary. Women already recognize their responsibility for pregnancy, abortion, birthing, nursing and changing diapers. And until you get pregnant and have the same responsibilities why don’t you just shut up abot what morals women should have and do something helpful like not trying to close down PP.
This is a silly post. Not worthy of you. It's internet talking points number 8, 9 and 10. We may be done here, you and I. If you really think that there is a morality for men and a morality for women, or that morality is some sort of specialized genderized topic of discussion, then I'm afraid you've been politicized out of all clear thought.
 

weaver2

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Re: The issue @ hand

This is a silly post. Not worthy of you. It's internet talking points number 8, 9 and 10. We may be done here, you and I. If you really think that there is a morality for men and a morality for women, or that morality is some sort of specialized genderized topic of discussion, then I'm afraid you've been politicized out of all clear thought.

You may not have noticed but women posters don't say :We want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is. The only people that ever imply that women don't understand about abortion and morality are men.
 
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Angel

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Re: The issue @ hand

You may not have noticed but women posters don't say :We want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is. The only people that ever imply that women don't understand about abortion and morality are men.
This just isn't true, and you know it (or ought to). Just the other day you had a conversation with a woman poster in the thread "Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?" who gives the lie to that generalization:
https://www.debatepolitics.com/abor...ts-and-oppose-abortion-23.html#post1070736896
 

weaver2

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Re: The issue @ hand

This just isn't true, and you know it (or ought to). Just the other day you had a conversation with a woman poster in the thread "Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?" who gives the lie to that generalization:
https://www.debatepolitics.com/abor...ts-and-oppose-abortion-23.html#post1070736896
The woman in question said:
"But I do think a moral society knows that it is a human life that is being extinguished."

And you believe that her sentence really is saying:
"I simply want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is."
 

weaver2

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Re: The issue @ hand

If you really think that there is a morality for men and a morality for women, or that morality is some sort of specialized genderized topic of discussion, then I'm afraid you've been politicized out of all clear thought.

This thread was inspired by exchanges with
minnie616, years2late, Lursa and Scrabaholic
--DP's Four Horsewomen of Abortion--
whose confusion concerning the nature and nomenclature of the human being in the womb
opened my eyes

--a newcomer to abortion debate--
opened my eyes
to the confusion at law
and to the cultural confusion
underlying the confusion of our Querulous Quartet.

The Law has confused them
and through them or the likes of them confused us or the likes of us.
(from post #1 by Angel)





and there's this little bit of male anti-abortion condescension "that critter in mommy's belly:" So yes, there is a "specialized genderized" morality for women according to anti-abortion men.
 

Angel

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Re: The issue @ hand

The woman in question said:
"But I do think a moral society knows that it is a human life that is being extinguished."

And you believe that her sentence really is saying:
"I simply want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is."
C'mon. man, don't do this sort of thing -- the woman has a score of posts in that thread.
She also said:

"Assuming your statistics are accurate, not one of them changes the fact that it is a living human being developing in the womb. And we, as a moral society, should never ignore that fact regardless of whether an abortion is medically indicated or not."

https://www.debatepolitics.com/abor...ts-and-oppose-abortion-23.html#post1070741491
 

AProudLefty

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Re: The issue @ hand

C'mon. man, don't do this sort of thing -- the woman has a score of posts in that thread.
She also said:

"Assuming your statistics are accurate, not one of them changes the fact that it is a living human being developing in the womb. And we, as a moral society, should never ignore that fact regardless of whether an abortion is medically indicated or not."

https://www.debatepolitics.com/abor...ts-and-oppose-abortion-23.html#post1070741491
You have not shown how an embryo or a few weeks old fetus is a human being.
 

weaver2

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Re: The issue @ hand

the woman has a score of posts in that thread. She also said:
"Assuming your statistics are accurate, not one of them changes the fact that it is a living human being developing in the womb. And we, as a moral society, should never ignore that fact regardless of whether an abortion is medically indicated or not."

So a person of much vaunted intellectual acuity, logical reasoning and superior word-smithing, doesn't see any difference in meaning between

a woman who writes, "it is a living human being developing in the womb. And we, as a moral society, should never ignore that fact"

and

a man who says to the "four horse-women of the Apocalypse "and the "50M baby killers, " I simply want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is."
 

Angel

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Re: The issue @ hand

So a person of much vaunted intellectual acuity, logical reasoning and superior word-smithing, doesn't see any difference in meaning between

a woman who writes, "it is a living human being developing in the womb. And we, as a moral society, should never ignore that fact"

and

a man who says to the "four horse-women of the Apocalypse "and the "50M baby killers, " I simply want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is."
I just can't believe you're persisting in this matter. This is not the same person I thought I was conversing with.
No, you're practicing sleight of hand.
A woman who says "Assuming your statistics are accurate, not one of them changes the fact that it is a living human being developing in the womb. And we, as a moral society, should never ignore that fact regardless of whether an abortion is medically indicated or not," and a man who says "I simply want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is" are in agreement on this issue of abortion and morality -- refuting your generalization that no woman poster would hold the view I am arguing.
 

weaver2

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Re: The issue @ hand

I just can't believe you're persisting in this matter. This is not the same person I thought I was conversing with.
No, you're practicing sleight of hand.
A woman who says "Assuming your statistics are accurate, not one of them changes the fact that it is a living human being developing in the womb. And we, as a moral society, should never ignore that fact regardless of whether an abortion is medically indicated or not," and a man who says "I simply want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is" are in agreement on this issue of abortion and morality -- refuting your generalization that no woman poster would hold the view I am arguing.
Take a poll if you think you can prove you are right.
 

Logician Man

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Re: The issue @ hand

So a person of much vaunted intellectual acuity, logical reasoning and superior word-smithing, doesn't see any difference in meaning between

a woman who writes, "it is a living human being developing in the womb. And we, as a moral society, should never ignore that fact"

and

a man who says to the "four horse-women of the Apocalypse "and the "50M baby killers, " I simply want abortion to be recognized for the moral choice it is."
:applaud:applaud
 
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