[W:1][W:11][W:368] Russia invades Ukraine: Live Thread

[Antiwar]

What happens if Russia manages to kill or capture the president of Ukraine? Do the Ukrainians lose their will for the resistance or do they keep fighting?

If he's killed, the powerful of the world would step in shortly thereafter.

 

[JANFU]

I am not talking about sanctions towards India. I don't know why you think I did. I am talking about India changing view. The bold: Strange statements, do you mean that it is the US that desides Indias foreign policy?

You are correct in that the relations between India and Russia probably is deeper than what the papers show, but Russia is commiting war crimes (big times).

The US has been courting India for a few decades.
India is on the front lines with China
India makes their own policies, but some wish to remain non aligned - after numerous border incidents, Chinese build up on their respective border, India is moving towards the US
Moved most of their Naval assets to be closer to China
Alliances can take decades

 

[reinaert]

"MARIUPOL, Ukraine (AP) — Under steady Russian bombardment, workers in Ukraine’s besieged southern port city of Mariupol are hastily and unceremoniously burying scores of dead Ukrainian civilians and soldiers in a mass grave.

With morgues overflowing and more corpses uncollected in homes, city officials decided they could not wait to hold individual burials.

A deep trench about 25 meters (27 yards) long dug in an old cemetery in the heart of the city is filling up with bodies collected by municipal social service workers from morgues and private homes."

Besieged Ukraine city of Mariupol buries dead in mass grave

Under steady bombardment, workers in Ukraine’s besieged southern port city of Mariupol are hastily burying their dead in a mass grave.

apnews.com

 

[Nomad4Ever]

This isn't to say the Russia is in the right, but simply to point out that to absolve the west of any responsibility is to obfuscate the facts.

I'm going to try to be nice, but I've been seeing a lot of dumb shit from people downplaying/deflecting blame from Russia over the past week and I'm starting to lose my patience with the whole group.

The fact is, in this specific case for once the West really doesn't bear any significant amount of blame. In my opinions attempts to direct blame towards the west almost always seems to be done in a way that implicitly minimizes the blame of Russia.

1. I'm only stating the fact that Russia wants buffer states. The US knows this, yet is actively chipping it away. By backing Russia into a corner, the US is forcing the bourgeois and nationalistic Russian leadership to bite back.

The US hasn't been chipping away, Russia's satellite states have been slowly realizing that Russia's style of imperialism is far more destructive to them than Western imperialism and have been drifting away out of their own self interest. The US isn't forcing anything. Russia is choosing to settle this militarily...with Ukraine. This isn't the cold war. There is no grand narrative battle between 'The West' and Russia. Ukraine didn't capitulate with Russia's demands and Russia decided it was worth it to use force to achieve their strategic goals.

In violation of a disingenuous pledge made to the last Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev

International law isn't decided on spoken words. He should have gotten that in writing lol.

into the lethal NATO alliance whilst arming NATO countries to the teeth uncomfortably close to Russia's borders

Lethal NATO alliance? Plus, there is ZERO chance NATO would invade Russia. If they were as blood thirsty for war as Russia they would be using the invasion of Ukraine as an excuse to declare war on Russia. Instead they have displayed they very much do NOT want to start a war with Russia.

(continued)

 

[Roadvirus]

"MARIUPOL, Ukraine (AP) — Under steady Russian bombardment, workers in Ukraine’s besieged southern port city of Mariupol are hastily and unceremoniously burying scores of dead Ukrainian civilians and soldiers in a mass grave.

With morgues overflowing and more corpses uncollected in homes, city officials decided they could not wait to hold individual burials.

A deep trench about 25 meters (27 yards) long dug in an old cemetery in the heart of the city is filling up with bodies collected by municipal social service workers from morgues and private homes."

Besieged Ukraine city of Mariupol buries dead in mass grave

Under steady bombardment, workers in Ukraine’s besieged southern port city of Mariupol are hastily burying their dead in a mass grave.

apnews.com

Evidence Exhibit #1,546,455 for the ICC investigators.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

(continued from previous post)

It was only after the fascist led protests and the consequent heavy-handed Russian response that pushed public opinion in favor.

4. https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea Far-right groups were at the forefront

However, the Right Sector’s role in the Maidan protests was vastly over-exaggerated, said Anton Shekhovtsov, an expert on far-right groups in Ukraine and a doctoral candidate at the University College of London.

“The Right Sector was not the leading force of Maidan and was not the leading force of the revolution,” said Shekhovtsov. At their core, protests were not about nationalism, but fighting rampant corruption in Viktor Yanukovich’s government. Any respect that the Right Sector earned on Maidan had nothing to do with their far-right political sentiments, he added.

Rather, this was in part thanks to a good public relations campaign and the group’s call for removing Yanukovich from power. (Source)

Their role in ousting the president and establishing a new Euromaidan-led government should not be exaggerated.
But, as the second image shows, nor should their involvement be played down, especially now they have assumed key ministerial posts.
Euromaidan officials are not fascists, nor do fascists dominate the movement. (Source)

To me, this line of attack trying to undermine the protests seems like the conservative line of trying to label all the BLM protesters as violent. Far right groups certainly participated in the protests, mostly it seems because it was optically good as the protests were popular and they hoped it would gain them followers. They certainly played a disproportionate role in the violence, but that's to be expected from far right groups isn't it.

3. IF Ukraine had acquiesced to Russian demands that they not join NATO and became a connection between the East and West, Putin would have no reason to invade.

Yes, if Ukraine had simply agreed to all Russian demands and completely disregarded their own interests in favor of acting as an extension of the Russian state then I agree Russia probably would have not invaded them.

As to Belarus, nothing changed before and after it basically became a Russian puppet state. The only thing that changed is that Russia is now conducting combat operations from Belarus.

Belarus is literally one of the most despotic countries in the entire region. It ranks lowest on freedom of press in Europe (lower than Russia) and Lukashenko literally has bragged he is the "last dictator in Europe". Whereas all the countries that distanced themselves from Russia are...you know...not literally dictatorships. Are you seriously arguing the Belarus has not suffered because of Russia supporting a military dictator for 30 years there?

 

[Juks]

The US has been courting India for a few decades.
India is on the front lines with China
India makes their own policies, but some wish to remain non aligned - after numerous border incidents, Chinese build up on their respective border, India is moving towards the US
Moved most of their Naval assets to be closer to China
Alliances can take decades

Quadrilateral queasiness: The Hindu Editorial on India’s stance in Russia-Ukraine crisis

India cannot be forced to pick a side in the conflict, but Russia could test its resolve

www.thehindu.com

 

[Yakshi]

Your argument is "brutal, religious, expansionist autocrat wants obedience, violent consequences of not giving obedience are victims' fault."

And you haven't perished of shame how?

During an earthquake, all of the cockroaches come out.

 

[Napoleon]

Probably just a small media drone you find at Radio Shack but hilarious nonetheless.

 

[prometeus]

During an earthquake, all of the cockroaches come out.

Unfortunately not enough get stepped on...

 

[reinaert]

Unfortunately not enough get stepped on...

At least they're making it easier by scribbling Zs on their shirts.

 

[bomberfox]

Do we know anyone who would do that? /s

Off the top of my head yeah.

 

[911Sparky]

So Russia should allow the extension of that front expand? Nato borders with Russia was on the Baltic Sea, basically Russia's frontier with the Three Baltic: Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

Acession of Ukraine to Nato would have exposed a much longer portion of Russia to Nato on its south, at Russia's border with Ukraine

When will you understand that Russia doesn't get to ALLOW an independent nation to join or not join NATO? Would you allow your neighbor to tell you which day to mow your lawn, or what time you can have dinner? All of which is beside the point, because NATO was not going to accept Ukraine for years, if at all.

 

[bomberfox]

McDonald's Is Closed In Russia: Hamburgers Are On The Black Market - Politics News Headlines

The company's CEO, Chris Kempczinski, announced yesterday that the company will temporarily close 850 restaurants in Russia due to the war in ...

politicsheadlines.com

This one is funny and sad.

Also, I expect hamburgler jokes from you people.

Gorbachev wouldnt be happy!

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Your argument is "brutal, religious, expansionist autocrat wants obedience, violent consequences of not giving obedience are victims' fault."

And you haven't perished of shame how?

During an earthquake, all of the cockroaches come out.

I cannot even begin to express the visceral pain I feel seeing so many bad (quite frankly often disgusting) opinions from people that otherwise I would generally agree with and consider a part of "the left". I think it hurts more because I expected a good portion of the Trump crowd to side with Putin given how Trump has cultivated that relationship in the past few years. I guess I just expected better.

 

[Antiwar]

I'm starting to lose my patience

Maybe you should log off.

 

[Antiwar]

During an earthquake, all of the cockroaches come out.

Surprise, surprise- dehumanization. Take a deep breath.

 

[reinaert]

Been chewing on the 'provocation' arguments. Aside from internal inconsistency in their logic, they've been jarring for a reason I haven't been able to properly articulate.

Was thinking about another discussion, about the word Jew. Which reminded me of Randy Weaver and his white nationalism. I've always thought that as execrable as Weaver's ideas were, it was not sufficient to entrap him. It was never cause to kill his family or try to bury him with legal jeopardy. He was a guy who had hateful ideas, but did not harm others. But, boy did his plight inflame a lot of other bad ****ers, and they went on to blow up the Murrah and bomb the Olympics, form violent militias, and set the stage for the modern resurgence of out in the open Nazis.

Kind of hit me at that point.

What was done to Weaver was never actually linked to what was done in his name, after. The Feds ****ed up Ruby Ridge, like they did Waco.

But that was not cause for Eric Rudolph or Timothy McVeigh. Not physically, not morally, not in any way at all. They weren't 'provoked' by the feds. They used it as pretext for what they already wanted to do.

Which sort of brings me back to the 'Putin was provoked' arguments. Because, in structure, in logic, even in their grammar, they are identical to those of McVeigh and Rudolph. Their position isn't just similar; it's the same.

So, when you argue that Putin was provoked, you are using the same exact argument that says that McVeigh, or Rudolph, or the Aryan Nation, or the Order were provoked.

Yours is from here on forward the McVeigh Defense. If that bothers you, reflect.

 

[MaryP]

"MARIUPOL, Ukraine (AP) — Under steady Russian bombardment, workers in Ukraine’s besieged southern port city of Mariupol are hastily and unceremoniously burying scores of dead Ukrainian civilians and soldiers in a mass grave.

With morgues overflowing and more corpses uncollected in homes, city officials decided they could not wait to hold individual burials.

A deep trench about 25 meters (27 yards) long dug in an old cemetery in the heart of the city is filling up with bodies collected by municipal social service workers from morgues and private homes."

Besieged Ukraine city of Mariupol buries dead in mass grave

Under steady bombardment, workers in Ukraine’s besieged southern port city of Mariupol are hastily burying their dead in a mass grave.

apnews.com

I hope they're keeping track of their names. What sad news. There are a lot more than 474 dead, UN.

 

[reinaert]

I cannot even begin to express the visceral pain I feel seeing so many bad (quite frankly often disgusting) opinions from people that otherwise I would generally agree with and consider a part of "the left". I think it hurts more because I expected a good portion of the Trump crowd to side with Putin given how Trump has cultivated that relationship in the past few years. I guess I just expected better.

Could you clarify, nomad?

 

[911Sparky]

What happens if Russia manages to kill or capture the president of Ukraine? Do the Ukrainians lose their will for the resistance or do they keep fighting?

Might make a martyr of him and they fight harder in his memory. Hope it doesn't happen.

 

[Antiwar]

I cannot even begin to express ...

I'm surprised at how few 'lefties' and people overall here are anti-war, pro-environment, 'pro-international justice', etc because of this war. It's like stepping back to the 1950s or further.

 

[JANFU]

Surprise, surprise- dehumanization. Take a deep breath.

You agree that Russia is conducting an illegal war against Ukraine?

 

[reinaert]

I'm surprised at how few 'lefties' and people overall here are anti-war, pro-environment, 'anti-international justice', etc because of this war.

Then the Lincoln Brigade, the Bread and Roses, and the Colorado miner strikes were never going to be for you.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Maybe you should log off.

This isn't a "today" thing. From downplaying the threat Russia posed to Ukraine, to laughing at people that said Russia was going to attack Ukraine, to trying to paint the entire country of Ukraine as Nazis, to buying the Russian propaganda and believing the Russian forces are 'peace keepers', claiming Ukraine was never a legitimate state....I've seen people on the left (some of them very large figures) make all of these comments and down play Russia's blatant imperialism at every step of the tragedy; from the Maidan protests to the actual invasion.

Every time I hoped that the next indefensible action from Russia would make them realize Russia isn't a country any leftist should be holding water for. Every time to just dug themselves deeper into the grey zone.