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Loxd4 said:What do you mean by this saying........
The Real McCoy said:Just that providing everyone with food and shelter and eliminating unemployment wouldn't be that hard.. but quite frankly, life would suck for most people. This is socialism/communism and it simply doesn't work... well, it works but it works poorly and usually collapses. Forcing economic equality simply isn't an option due to the competitive instinct in our nature that drives a free market economy.
Loxd4 said:So you mean if capitalism made a tax or something so everone would have food, shelter and a job, it would be socialism/communism...and would collapses. And wouldn't have a free market economy? Right?
Anarchist said:I think the closest we can get to a utopia is having no government at all. It certainly wouldn't be perfect but we as humans are far from perfect so it's impossible to create a perfect society.
I realize my anarchist views are radical but I'll be happy to back them up if anyone has a point they'd like to debate.
The Real McCoy said:I'm not the type to instantly bash an anarchist... I'm pretty close to one myself but I think people need governments. An organized body of leadership will always form in any human society and we need a system to create and enfore laws.
I also think the government should provide basic infrastructure (roads for example) a military, money (I don't like the idea of privately minted money) a post office, a few basic economic regulations and a couple other things I'm forgetting (too tired.)
Loxd4 said:Best quote I ever seen...but what if you kick the people out that do not work...so they cant kill
Anarchist said:I think the closest we can get to a utopia is having no government at all. It certainly wouldn't be perfect but we as humans are far from perfect so it's impossible to create a perfect society.
I realize my anarchist views are radical but I'll be happy to back them up if anyone has a point they'd like to debate.
Calm2Chaos said:No goverment would be a utopia for those that are the strongest, meanest and most well armed. NOt exactly sure how you equate mob mentallity with utopia but hey whatever floats your boat. The strong survive, the weak are cast aside....Sound slike utopia to me :rofl
Willravel said:Utopia is an ideal, not unlike peace. Utopia can exist, just as peace or justice can exist.
Willravel said:Utopia is an ideal, not unlike peace. Utopia can exist, just as peace or justice can exist.
Damn... Bill Gates and the rest of those millionaires and billionaires must have worked harder than any known man...I mean in our society the harder you work the better the job your going to get
Actually the proletariat class can only exist under capitalism, in something like communism there are no classes, all own equally, and in socialism, it depends what type.society everyone would have to become one of the proletariat class in order for the society to function, sounds like classic Marxism to me,
Comrade Brian said:Damn... Bill Gates and the rest of those millionaires and billionaires must have worked harder than any known man...
Actually the proletariat class can only exist under capitalism, in something like communism there are no classes, all own equally, and in socialism, it depends what type.
Comrade Brian said:Possibly dumbest quote I've ever heard, you can't understand them without knowing what they wrote, or is it all observations from the Stalinists in the USSR?
Comrade Brian said:Its spelled Lenin, not Lennon, is that a mistake or poor joke?
But its not the proletariat class, that exists only in capitalism, just like lord and serf existed in fuedalism, they're gone now, and the proletariat will disappear under socialism.Actually the goal of Marx was to bring about class warfare through revolution with the design to leave only one class, the proletariat class who Marx saw as the only class worthy of existence in that according to him the worker was the only person capable of maintaining a self sustaining society.
Some have worked moreover in practice, the Paris Commune of 1871, was quite a communal society, e.g. organized police force had disappeared under it, yet crime was almost non-existant.No you can read Marx and Lenin, understand it, and then realize it for what it is: a lot of impossible promises that look good on paper meant to appeal to the downtrodden masses yet in practice lead to dictatorship, exploitation, and tyranny
Don't racall Lennon having communist activities.A mistake allthough they both wrote communist propaganda so it works doesn't it?
Comrade Brian said:But its not the proletariat class, that exists only in capitalism, just like lord and serf existed in fuedalism, they're gone now, and the proletariat will disappear under socialism.
Comrade Brian said:Some have worked moreover in practice, the Paris Commune of 1871, was quite a communal society, e.g. organized police force had disappeared under it, yet crime was almost non-existant.
Comrade Brian said:If modern communism has ever benn practiced-please let me know where.
Comrade Brian said:Don't racall Lennon having communist activities.
To put it simply for your small brain, the two classes will converge into one class, and that will rule, all are a part of the class.That's like saying that if you kill off all the races except for one there will be no more racism, well of course there won't be, because you killed off all of the other races so there's no one left to hate.
No, classes do exist, the owner and the working, the bourgeousie and the proletariat, oftenly the owning lives wealthy and don't work, they just own, the working do almost all human labor-yet live poorer.Besides there are no classes in the U.S. it's a social construct created by those in power to stay in power through class warfare and pitting the people off against one another, everyone in this country has an equal ability to achieve anything they want it's called rugged individualism you're not going to change my mind on this I'm an economic reactionary I believe in economic anarchy.
Tell me, how did the centuries-old communal societies of the Americas collapse, some that were older than the Roman Empire? They were crushed by Europeans and diseases brought by them, they didn't collapse because internal problems you discussed.They tried socialism right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. guess what didn't work:
Did you know that in the very begining of this country we experimented with socialism? It's true! Long before Karl Marx was even born, the original contract that the pilgrims had entered into with their merchant-sponsors in London called for everything they produced to go into a common store, each member was entitled to one common share. All of the land they cleared and the houses they built belonged to the community as well. Well what happened? Bradford who had become governor of the colony realized that collectivism was a failed experiment, because the most creative and industrious people had no incentive to work any harder than anyone else, unless they could utilize the power of personel motivation. So Bradford assigned a plot of land to each family to work and manage, thus invoking the power of the market place.
If thats enough for one to be communist-then W.E. DuBois, Pablo Picasso, Theo Dreiser, R. W. Ellison were also communists, they sympithized some communist ideals but not many others.ou're obviously misinformed:
Lennon himself described "Imagine" as "virtually the Communist Manifesto, even though I am not particularly a communist and I do not belong to any movement. . . . But because it is sugar-coated, it is accepted."
Comrade Brian said:To put it simply for your small brain, the two classes will converge into one class, and that will rule, all are a part of the class.
Comrade Brian said:No, classes do exist, the owner and the working, the bourgeousie and the proletariat, oftenly the owning lives wealthy and don't work, they just own, the working do almost all human labor-yet live poorer.
Yes that class will rule, but all are part of it, and always having a ruling and ruled-over class society is moreover just and excuse to stay in power.Not possible... there will always exist an upper/elite/ruling class. This is the inherent flaw in Marxist ideals.
Comrade Brian said:A few lucky people, if all move up-all will bacome poorer, workers are often forced into jobs to live.
Comrade Brian said:To put it simply for your small brain, the two classes will converge into one class, and that will rule, all are a part of the class.
No, classes do exist, the owner and the working, the bourgeousie and the proletariat, oftenly the owning lives wealthy and don't work, they just own, the working do almost all human labor-yet live poorer.
Comrade Brian said:Tell me, how did the centuries-old communal societies of the Americas collapse, some that were older than the Roman Empire? They were crushed by Europeans and diseases brought by them, they didn't collapse because internal problems you discussed.
Then it appears we have a difference of opinion.No like I said classes don't exist except in the mind they are social constructs created by people like you to play the masses off of one another to use the illusion of class warfare to gain power.
The Mayans invented a wheel, and an early form of the rubber-sole shoe, and they were essentiallly a communal society, the Incas and Aztecs were often noted to be better than many European Empires, and they were essentially communal, except they didn't have gunpowder or steel or diseases or many horses. I know the Aztecs and Mayans had written languages, can't remember if Incas had.Umm they never worked that well in the first place they were nomadic peoples constantly on the brink of starvation with no written language who had failed to even invent the wheel. Not a very good example of the greatness of communism if you ask me
Capitalism=/= creation of capital. Capitalism is described as means of production owned privatly.Wrong. Wealth is not stagnant in a capitalist society.. that's what capitalism is: the creation of capital.
A popular myth.socialist/communist model where the people are "equalized" to the lowest common denominator.
Comrade Brian said:Capitalism=/= creation of capital. Capitalism is described as means of production owned privatly.
Comrade Brian said:A popular myth.
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