US weekly jobless claims hit 2.4 million, bringing the 9-week total to nearly 39 million

[tres borrachos]

I guarantee that Jack Hughes will miss 4000 scoring chances next year.

Same here!

 

[tres borrachos]

He's not my boy! He's probably back in Finland, ice fishing or something. The Rangers probably forgot he's on the team.

And the Devils probably aren't going to the playoffs. Oh wait! Make that "definitely".

Ha. Ha. Ha.

 

[bluesmoke]

Allowing people to keep more of what they earn really bothers you, why? I keep asking the question never getting an answer how do you give a FIT cut to people who don't pay FIT? Your love for liberalism and socialism is on full display as is your ignorance of actual verifiable data. This is a cult like attitude that makes no sense. Tax cuts don't hurt you, your family, or the country but they do hurt the federal bureaucrats and their lust for power. You keep ignoring the difference between Trump's debt and Obama's

There seems to be a real disconnect when it comes to debt and the results generated from that debt thus showing that all debt isn't equal. What exactly did the American taxpayers get out of the Obama debt??

1. The worst recovery from a major recession in modern history
2. Employment not getting back to pre recession levels until 2014
3. Record numbers of part time for economic reason employment meaning part time jobs thus lower taxpaying jobs
4. 500 billion average annual GDP growth for 8 years(4.0 Trillion GDP growth)
5. 9.3% U-6 Unemployment rate
6. Bail out of the pubic sector and claimed saved jobs which didn't generate the promised new jobs thus new taxpayers from 842 billion dollar shovel ready jobs stimulus

What have we gotten for the Trump debt

1. Strong economic growth, 900 billion average GDP growth 2017-2018-2019(2.7 trillion growth)
2. Employment of 6.6 million jobs created in 3 years vs. 6 million jobs created prior to taking office the last 9 years
3. 6.9% U-6 vs. 9.3% that he inherited
4. 1.4 million fewer part time for economic reason employees than inherited
5. 6% African American unemployment vs. the 8% inherited
6. Record state and local tax revenue due to consumer spending as a result of the tax cuts
7. No massive Gov't stimulus program pre pandemic

Looks to me like the Trump debt generated better return than Obama's, await your reply?

Tax cuts hurts others by taking money out of the national treasury net of deficits that could go to services that benefit American society and our nation such as better healthcare to keep us healthy and productive citizens and to rebuilding our infrastructure that also assures employment and business growth.

Obviously, to have a government at all and pay for all that govt provides, there must be taxes. Meaning, you just can’t keep cutting taxes under the illogical, meaningless slogan of “keeping more of what you earn”. That simply is unworkable and impractical.

You don’t give a FIT cut to people who don’t pay FIT. You give them a living wage so that perhaps then they could pay FIT and there would be less a need for govt assistance.

None of what you listed of Trump vs. Obama was anything but the continuation of the positive economic trends established under Obama. Trump did not improve any of those upward trends. They just kept going in the same direction at the same rate of improvement. You’ve been told so many times before, but you prefer to cling to your ignorance. Just as has been pointed out to you time and again that the greatest recession since the Great Depression will require the longest recovery. Still, you cling to your ignorance.

Now you’ve added a new one to your list of BS: “Record state and local tax revenue due to consumer spending as a result of the tax cuts”. Well, under every president there should be such records. No duh. Inflation alone does that. But as usual, you won’t give any source information to show what you claim has trended any better under Trump as under Obama. Because you can’t. But just for grins and giggles, let’s take a look at consumer spending:

Real Personal Consumption Expenditures (PCEC96) | FRED | St. Louis Fed

No better improvement under Trump than under Obama. More Conservative falsehood. You just can’t get anything right.

 

[Conservative]

Tax cuts hurts others by taking money out of the national treasury net of deficits that could go to services that benefit American society and our nation such as better healthcare to keep us healthy and productive citizens and to rebuilding our infrastructure that also assures employment and business growth.

Obviously, to have a government at all and pay for all that govt provides, there must be taxes. Meaning, you just can’t keep cutting taxes under the illogical, meaningless slogan of “keeping more of what you earn”. That simply is unworkable and impractical.

You don’t give a FIT cut to people who don’t pay FIT. You give them a living wage so that perhaps then they could pay FIT and there would be less a need for govt assistance.

None of what you listed of Trump vs. Obama was anything but the continuation of the positive economic trends established under Obama. Trump did not improve any of those upward trends. They just kept going in the same direction at the same rate of improvement. You’ve been told so many times before, but you prefer to cling to your ignorance. Just as has been pointed out to you time and again that the greatest recession since the Great Depression will require the longest recovery. Still, you cling to your ignorance.

Now you’ve added a new one to your list of BS: “Record state and local tax revenue due to consumer spending as a result of the tax cuts”. Well, under every president there should be such records. No duh. Inflation alone does that. But as usual, you won’t give any source information to show what you claim has trended any better under Trump as under Obama. Because you can’t. But just for grins and giggles, let’s take a look at consumer spending:

Real Personal Consumption Expenditures (PCEC96) | FRED | St. Louis Fed

No better improvement under Trump than under Obama. More Conservative falsehood. You just can’t get anything right.

So in your world it is the national treasury that is responsible for personal responsibility issues? Thanks for explaining that to us. Always thought this country was built on individual freedoms and equal opportunity not equal outcome. Guess I missed that growing up

This country wasn't built on wealth redistribution which is what you are promoting but it was built on individual wealth creation. Trump's results were the best results EVER generated by a President for his first three years in office, results that you continue to ignore but now results being generated by the pandemic. It there are enough entitlement minded liberals voting in November, Trump loses but if there are enough of the silent majority that loves their freedoms and the private sector it will be a bloodbath for the left.

There is no proof that the national treasury was hurt by the tax cuts but as usual you ignore the line items in the budget and the tax revenue created to fund those line items. Discretionary, Mandatory, and Debt service make up the budget. Discretionary budget of 1.47 trillion dollars was funded by FIT, CIT, Excise Taxes that generated over 2 trillion dollars in revenue. Does liberal math tell you that 2 trillion in revenue to cover 1.47 trillion in debt cause trillion dollar deficits?

Can you explain to us exactly what we got for the 9.3 trillion Obama added to the debt and the 842 billion dollar shovel ready jobs stimulus? Doesn't appear that you have any understanding of the data being presented

 

[Anthony60]

And the Devils probably aren't going to the playoffs. Oh wait! Make that "definitely".

Ha. Ha. Ha.

Blah. I am just going to watch the Devils vs Red Wings finals. That's just one of the Cups they won since the Rangers won a Cup.

 

[bluesmoke]

Trump has it right and we probably see a "back to work bonus" vs any increase in unemployment benefits as that destroys any incentive to go back to work. Proving myself a waste of time obviously means official verifiable data doesn't resonate with you and is of no interest. Being a left wing radical makes no sense unless you are one of the rich liberal elites seeing your power eroded or someone totally dependent on the liberal ideology, that being the case I feel sorry for you

And of course just like right-to-work states if someone knows that to collect that back-to-work bonus means they must subject themselves to unhealthy work conditions that put their lives at risk where distancing and mask requirements are being openly flaunted, then they have the right to not show-up for work, right? Yeah, you really thought this through. And, as usual, look how long it took you to give a forthright answer to what had already been asked of you that you did your best/worst to avoid honestly answering. We're done hear. You just beat around the bush is all you ever do.

 

[bluesmoke]

The OP isn't about the Trump tax cuts.

Goalposts, Moving, Unit of issue : One each.

The OP is about giving large corps billions of dollars in corona relief $ to help keep people employed that was instead used for corp stock buybacks, etc. The OP also gave a past similar example of govt giveaways misused/abused by corps for their own enrichment of bonus/buybacks being the 2008 govt stimulus of hundreds of billions of $. I gave another example being the Trump tax cuts that were supposed to be a business stimulus that would trickle-down to the avg American that never did. My post was on-topic, pertinent and salient. YOU don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Conservative]

And of course just like right-to-work states if someone knows that to collect that back-to-work bonus means they must subject themselves to unhealthy work conditions that put their lives at risk where distancing and mask requirements are being openly flaunted, then they have the right to not show-up for work, right? Yeah, you really thought this through. And, as usual, look how long it took you to give a forthright answer to what had already been asked of you that you did your best/worst to avoid honestly answering. We're done hear. You just beat around the bush is all you ever do.

So you are the expert on back to work unhealthy work conditions? You really do live in the wrong country, looking for a sure thing, guaranteed income, massive nanny state to provide what you need. Really bothers you doesn't it that work is required for income as it is much better staying home and collecting a paycheck. That is the current generation attitude or so it seems

Another comment about me not responding to your posts when the reality is that defines you completely as you never respond to official results or ever post any data to support your claims. I don't beat around the bush, I poste context and official data, yours is one that promotes the liberal ideology but never any liberal results

U.S. weekly job losses are due to the pandemic and the state economies being shutdown. Trump has no authority over state and local governments except when nationalized by Marshall Law. We have a Constitution, suggest you read it to find out the true role of the President.

Like most liberals you focus on what the media tells you and the bottom line numbers not the cause or reaction to those numbers. Providing a back to work bonus restores incentive to the work place and will lead us to a prosperous recovery. You actually believe that corporations and businesses want to hurt their employees? Prove it?

 

[Conservative]

The OP is about giving large corps billions of dollars in corona relief $ to help keep people employed that was instead used for corp stock buybacks, etc. The OP also gave a past similar example of govt giveaways misused/abused by corps for their own enrichment of bonus/buybacks being the 2008 govt stimulus of hundreds of billions of $. I gave another example being the Trump tax cuts that were supposed to be a business stimulus that would trickle-down to the avg American that never did. My post was on-topic, pertinent and salient. YOU don't know what you're talking about.

We have asked you to post a link supporting that claim that the CV stimulus was being used for stock buybacks, so far all we hear is rhetroic, normal anti Trump anti Tax cut rhetoric from someone who has no idea how the private sector works or even the CV stimulus that was a BIPARTISAN Bill approved and signed.

Keep showing that liberal ignorance and anti Trump rhetoric hoping that American returns to Obamanomics with massive entitlement spending and growth of the public sector.

 

[tres borrachos]

Blah. I am just going to watch the Devils vs Red Wings finals. That's just one of the Cups they won since the Rangers won a Cup.

Back in the days when they had a real team.

And a real goalie.:lol:

 

[paul342160]

45% to 50% of the voters wanted Trump.

Are you happy with his response to Covid-19 and the high unemployment rates?

Are your investments doing better than in December 2016?

At least the Lincoln Project members are prepared to rebuild the Republican Party.

 

[Conservative]

45% to 50% of the voters wanted Trump.

Are you happy with his response to Covid-19 and the high unemployment rates?

Are your investments doing better than in December 2016?

At least the Lincoln Project members are prepared to rebuild the Republican Party.

Yes I am in the 45-50% that support Trump and the conservative policies he has implemented, certainly don't support his rhetoric but results do matter

RealClearPolitics - Election Other - President Trump Job Approval - Economy

No, I am not happy with the unemployment but that was going to happen regardless of who was in the WH as the economy shutdown. As for his reaction to CV19 not sure what you think his response should have been as he was limited by the Constitution. States are first responders, not the federal gov't

And yes, I am happy with the return on investment in the stock market that was 18+k the day after the November 2016 election. 19+k after inauguration day, and over 25k today.

 

[bluesmoke]

The post that I cited as being baseless and stupid was this:

"Quote Originally Posted by bluesmoke View Post

We could see this rip-off train a-comin' down the track.

Now McConnell and the Republicans are quashing the House bill that gives the avg American extended unemployment.

Those pro-plutocracy Reps won't give the regular guy a teaspoon of water in the middle of a desert, but they'll build a water park and wet-bar for the rich and large corps."

It was typically divisive, Democrat-Socialist hate speak.

It was also baseless and stupid.

Other than the literal of the "teaspoon of water" and "water park" analogies, I can back up what I say, including the meaning of the analogies. You can't back up what you say.

 

[bluesmoke]

So in your world it is the national treasury that is responsible for personal responsibility issues? Thanks for explaining that to us. Always thought this country was built on individual freedoms and equal opportunity not equal outcome. Guess I missed that growing up

This country wasn't built on wealth redistribution which is what you are promoting but it was built on individual wealth creation. Trump's results were the best results EVER generated by a President for his first three years in office, results that you continue to ignore but now results being generated by the pandemic. It there are enough entitlement minded liberals voting in November, Trump loses but if there are enough of the silent majority that loves their freedoms and the private sector it will be a bloodbath for the left.

There is no proof that the national treasury was hurt by the tax cuts but as usual you ignore the line items in the budget and the tax revenue created to fund those line items. Discretionary, Mandatory, and Debt service make up the budget. Discretionary budget of 1.47 trillion dollars was funded by FIT, CIT, Excise Taxes that generated over 2 trillion dollars in revenue. Does liberal math tell you that 2 trillion in revenue to cover 1.47 trillion in debt cause trillion dollar deficits?

Can you explain to us exactly what we got for the 9.3 trillion Obama added to the debt and the 842 billion dollar shovel ready jobs stimulus? Doesn't appear that you have any understanding of the data being presented

All you do is go on-and-on with your conservatribe without having refuted a single thing I've said. Be specific. You can't. Pick out a quote of mine and refute that quote with facts, data and source. You never have. See you on another thread.

 

[Conservative]

All you do is go on-and-on with your conservatribe without having refuted a single thing I've said. Be specific. You can't. Pick out a quote of mine and refute that quote with facts, data and source. You never have. See you on another thread.

Not only have I refuted your opinions with facts, logic and common sense, I have shown you to be poorly informed and a typical liberal out of touch with reality and focused on destroying the private sector thus the country that our Founders created

 

[code1211]

Other than the literal of the "teaspoon of water" and "water park" analogies, I can back up what I say, including the meaning of the analogies. You can't back up what you say.

Well, then, go ahead and back it up.

 

[Conservative]

Well, then, go ahead and back it up.

That isn't going to happen, as this poster is a liberal elite's dream, buying rhetoric and ignoring results, never backing up any claims but continuing to promote the liberal rhetoric

You claimed that Trump didn't honor the victims of the CV by lowering the flags at half staff, that was a lie then tried to give credit to Schumer and Pelosi which wasn't even the issue. Your partisan hated Trump rhetoric continues to divert from the fact that the current economic results have nothing to do with Trump economic policies but rather due entirely to the pandemic and as the recovery occurs it is going to be robust and again do what Conservative principles always do, destroy the liberal narrative .

 

[bluesmoke]

Well, then, go ahead and back it up.

Per your "Well, then, go ahead and back it up." OK then:

We “could see this rip-off train a-comin' down the track” because the legislation wording did not have protection against large corps taking advantage of what firstly gave $ to them, not to the avg American. In fact, Trump said he’d ignore a key oversight provision in the $2 trillion coronavirus relief bill. Included in the bill is a tax break for real estate investors and $454 billion a Fed Reserve program that benefits big business. Loans disbursed and capital on hand will be an amount to supply corporate America with more than $4 trillion in subsidized financing.

Trump Says He’ll Ignore Key Oversight Provision in Stimulus Bill – Mother Jones

The COVID-19 stimulus bill: Here are the ugly details

Now that there is a bill that addresses the avg American, w/o big corp giveaways, by extending unemploy bens, but McConnell refuses to advance Pelosi’s House bill through the Senate. Like I said, “McConnell and the Republicans are quashing the House bill that gives the avg American extended unemployment.”

Trump and McConnell don't support extending enhanced unemployment benefits, but most Americans do | Salon.com

Republicans favor legislation that feeds money from the top, “trickle-down”, that guarantees money to large corps and the rich before the avg American gets even a taste. The Trump tax cut is a perfect example. It was supposed to spur business investment, it did not. It was supposed to improve wages more than before, it did not. It was supposed to repatriate $ back to the US economy, it did not. The avg Americans was supposed to get a 10% tax cut, it did not. Instead, all that corp $ ended-up as stock buy-backs and mgmnt bonus. The large corps and rich get their water park, the avg American gets a sip of water.

What did corporate America do with that tax break? Buy record amounts of its own stock

After having given an honest forthright response as you asked, I don’t expect the same from you. You’ve been cowardly avoiding giving such throughout this thread in our exchange of post. That’s code MO. You don't back up what you say w/o then being refuted. You're not an honest, forthright poster. As I do, I'll continue refuting you supporting what I say against what you post on future thread as with this one.

 

[code1211]

Per your "Well, then, go ahead and back it up." OK then:

We “could see this rip-off train a-comin' down the track” because the legislation wording did not have protection against large corps taking advantage of what firstly gave $ to them, not to the avg American. In fact, Trump said he’d ignore a key oversight provision in the $2 trillion coronavirus relief bill. Included in the bill is a tax break for real estate investors and $454 billion a Fed Reserve program that benefits big business. Loans disbursed and capital on hand will be an amount to supply corporate America with more than $4 trillion in subsidized financing.

Trump Says He’ll Ignore Key Oversight Provision in Stimulus Bill – Mother Jones

The COVID-19 stimulus bill: Here are the ugly details

Now that there is a bill that addresses the avg American, w/o big corp giveaways, by extending unemploy bens, but McConnell refuses to advance Pelosi’s House bill through the Senate. Like I said, “McConnell and the Republicans are quashing the House bill that gives the avg American extended unemployment.”

Trump and McConnell don't support extending enhanced unemployment benefits, but most Americans do | Salon.com

Republicans favor legislation that feeds money from the top, “trickle-down”, that guarantees money to large corps and the rich before the avg American gets even a taste. The Trump tax cut is a perfect example. It was supposed to spur business investment, it did not. It was supposed to improve wages more than before, it did not. It was supposed to repatriate $ back to the US economy, it did not. The avg Americans was supposed to get a 10% tax cut, it did not. Instead, all that corp $ ended-up as stock buy-backs and mgmnt bonus. The large corps and rich get their water park, the avg American gets a sip of water.

What did corporate America do with that tax break? Buy record amounts of its own stock

After having given an honest forthright response as you asked, I don’t expect the same from you. You’ve been cowardly avoiding giving such throughout this thread in our exchange of post. That’s code MO. You don't back up what you say w/o then being refuted. You're not an honest, forthright poster. As I do, I'll continue refuting you supporting what I say against what you post on future thread as with this one.

The Mother Jones article does not say what you apparently think it says. The article, in truth, does not say what the headline says it says.

The Bill "quashed" by McConnell was a Christmas tree bill to advance almost anything that had no connection to any stimulus. ANOTHER WASTE OF MONEY TO LINE THE POCKETS OF DEMOCRAT-SOCIALIST DONERS.

In passing, the jobs report just out seems to indicate that the need further stimulus is overstated by the Democrat-Socialists.

Unemployment Fell To 13.3% In May After Shocking Rebound

In passing, the stocks I have purchased since March 17 have grown by about 50%. They will have probably doubled by Election Day. Ain't too shabby.

The last link regarding the stock buy backs was from 2018. Did you intend to post this obvious lie or did you misread the date line?

 

[zimmer]

Gross incompetence in the White House has consequences as it turns out.

Yeah... Hillary got her ass kicked.

Thanks Obama.

 

[bluesmoke]

The Mother Jones article does not say what you apparently think it says. The article, in truth, does not say what the headline says it says.

The Bill "quashed" by McConnell was a Christmas tree bill to advance almost anything that had no connection to any stimulus. ANOTHER WASTE OF MONEY TO LINE THE POCKETS OF DEMOCRAT-SOCIALIST DONERS.

In passing, the jobs report just out seems to indicate that the need further stimulus is overstated by the Democrat-Socialists.

Unemployment Fell To 13.3% In May After Shocking Rebound

In passing, the stocks I have purchased since March 17 have grown by about 50%. They will have probably doubled by Election Day. Ain't too shabby.

The last link regarding the stock buy backs was from 2018. Did you intend to post this obvious lie or did you misread the date line?

Nothing you say refutes anything I said in my post.

MJ cited Trump's statement that he would only allow oversight based on His approval, which effectively ignores Congress or IG own oversight and instead gives right of refusal and required approval to Trump.

If Christmas tree "non stimulus" can be given to pet RW large corps and the rich by the Republican-Corporatocracy, then the avg American should get a little too.

And the reported Apr unempl of 14.7% was corrected to 19.7%. Amazing what a few trillion dollars will do.

More important than your anecdote is the increasing stock market from the Fed pouring hundreds of billions into supporting the capital mkts to lend even higher risk equities that are climbing towards the trillions that is propping-up that stock mkt resulting in stock buy-backs and mgmnt bonuses. But you go on thinking about and displaying yourself on this forum. Be Trump.

What is a lie about it? Prove your accusation. Prove it. Send a reply post. Quote what is a lie and prove it.

 

[code1211]

Nothing you say refutes anything I said in my post.

MJ cited Trump's statement that he would only allow oversight based on His approval, which effectively ignores Congress or IG own oversight and instead gives right of refusal and required approval to Trump.

If Christmas tree "non stimulus" can be given to pet RW large corps and the rich by the Republican-Corporatocracy, then the avg American should get a little too.

And the reported Apr unempl of 14.7% was corrected to 19.7%. Amazing what a few trillion dollars will do.

More important than your anecdote is the increasing stock market from the Fed pouring hundreds of billions into supporting the capital mkts to lend even higher risk equities that are climbing towards the trillions that is propping-up that stock mkt resulting in stock buy-backs and mgmnt bonuses. But you go on thinking about and displaying yourself on this forum. Be Trump.

What is a lie about it? Prove your accusation. Prove it. Send a reply post. Quote what is a lie and prove it.

The lie? You said that the stimulus money paid to the businesses was used to buy back stocks. You posted a link to an article from 2018. Obviously you are using as proof a thing a thing that is a deception. That's why I asked in my post.

Now you post that the unemployment rate FROM APRIL was high. With respect, the May report is also out and the April Report is thereby history. The April Report just makes the May Report that much more surprising and encouraging.

What are you talking about?

The President has witnessed what Congressional Oversight amounts to and it's not pretty, honest, ethical or legal. Our politicians never saw a bribe they didn't like.

Regarding the Fed engaging in Quantitative Easing, this is pretty much SOP in a financial crisis and was the policy used during the entirety of Obama's first term.

The Corporatocracy crap you ladle out is propaganda. If you have failed to notice, there are businesses going out of business, workers unemployed, cities withering with no tax revenue and personal tragedy of all description occurring.

WHY? Because our governments shut everything down. The reason for the shut downs were based on good intentions. They paved our road with them and we were all headed in the same wrong direction.

The most effective stimulus plan right now is to re-open everything and get everyone back to work.

May jobs report: America's unemployment rate falls to 13.3% as economy posts surprise job gains - CNN

 

[Ringo Stalin]

The head of the Organization for economic cooperation and development: "the World is experiencing the worst economic crisis in the last 100 years."
Just to the door of world of capitalism, that 40 years ago finally turned into a credit addict, knocked collectors, who came for the debt of $250 trillion

 

[bluesmoke]

The lie? You said that the stimulus money paid to the businesses was used to buy back stocks. You posted a link to an article from 2018. Obviously you are using as proof a thing a thing that is a deception. That's why I asked in my post.

Now you post that the unemployment rate FROM APRIL was high. With respect, the May report is also out and the April Report is thereby history. The April Report just makes the May Report that much more surprising and encouraging.

What are you talking about?

The President has witnessed what Congressional Oversight amounts to and it's not pretty, honest, ethical or legal. Our politicians never saw a bribe they didn't like.

Regarding the Fed engaging in Quantitative Easing, this is pretty much SOP in a financial crisis and was the policy used during the entirety of Obama's first term.

The Corporatocracy crap you ladle out is propaganda. If you have failed to notice, there are businesses going out of business, workers unemployed, cities withering with no tax revenue and personal tragedy of all description occurring.

WHY? Because our governments shut everything down. The reason for the shut downs were based on good intentions. They paved our road with them and we were all headed in the same wrong direction.

The most effective stimulus plan right now is to re-open everything and get everyone back to work.

May jobs report: America's unemployment rate falls to 13.3% as economy posts surprise job gains - CNN

What does the date have to do with anything? The tax cut was signed in Dec 2017. Corps were cash rich, and as records show started such as stock buy-backs soon thereafter knowing their cash reserves would be easily replenished by tax cut savings. You can go to further articles into 2019 as the same continued after tax filings. Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

The rest of what you say does not change a single fact of what I posted. Or, be specific. Point out exactly what I said and what is not factual about it. You can describe what I call an elderly lady as an “old hag”, but that doesn’t change the fact as I presented.

You didn’t refute anything. It takes too long to get anything substantive from you. See you on another thread.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

There was never a need to close the country. This virus will be around a long time as well as others. It is time to act responsible and learn to live with them. This destruction of our economy was one the dumbest things we have done in a long time if not the dumbest ever. What is really sad is it was done for politics and party control of our government and was never actually needed to save lives as other countries have proven and continue to prove.