US and China push to modernise and expand weapons in race for naval dominance in the Pacific

[JacksinPA]

US and China push to modernise ships’ weapons in race for naval dominance

US Navy floats plan to equip destroyers with hypersonic missiles to help contain China in the Pacific.

www.scmp.com

• US Navy floats plan to equip destroyers with hypersonic missiles to help contain China
• 
  
• Donald Trump’s top national security adviser Robert O’Brien announces upgrade for attack submarines and destroyers

The race between China and the United States to develop a more capable navy is expected to further intensify, with Washington planning to equip its destroyers with hypersonic missiles, outpacing China’s
supersonic anti-ship missiles, analysts said.

The move to install the highly advanced weapons came after US Secretary of Defence Mark Esper said in early October that the US Navy would need more than 500 ships in its fleet to ensure maritime superiority over China in coming decades.

According to military news website Defense News, which quoted US President Donald Trump’s national security adviser Robert O’Brien, the US will equip its attack submarines and its destroyers with hypersonic missiles in a bid to stave off the mounting threat posed by Chinain the Pacific.
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We've apparently been developing hypersonic anti-ship missiles in parallel with Russia& China.

 

[Dayton3]

US and China push to modernise ships’ weapons in race for naval dominance

US Navy floats plan to equip destroyers with hypersonic missiles to help contain China in the Pacific.

www.scmp.com

• US Navy floats plan to equip destroyers with hypersonic missiles to help contain China
• 
  
• Donald Trump’s top national security adviser Robert O’Brien announces upgrade for attack submarines and destroyers

The race between China and the United States to develop a more capable navy is expected to further intensify, with Washington planning to equip its destroyers with hypersonic missiles, outpacing China’s
supersonic anti-ship missiles, analysts said.

The move to install the highly advanced weapons came after US Secretary of Defence Mark Esper said in early October that the US Navy would need more than 500 ships in its fleet to ensure maritime superiority over China in coming decades.

According to military news website Defense News, which quoted US President Donald Trump’s national security adviser Robert O’Brien, the US will equip its attack submarines and its destroyers with hypersonic missiles in a bid to stave off the mounting threat posed by Chinain the Pacific.
==================================================================
We've apparently been developing hypersonic anti-ship missiles in parallel with Russia& China.

Everybody knows that.

 

[Fishking]

US and China push to modernise ships’ weapons in race for naval dominance

US Navy floats plan to equip destroyers with hypersonic missiles to help contain China in the Pacific.

www.scmp.com

• US Navy floats plan to equip destroyers with hypersonic missiles to help contain China
• 
  
• Donald Trump’s top national security adviser Robert O’Brien announces upgrade for attack submarines and destroyers

The race between China and the United States to develop a more capable navy is expected to further intensify, with Washington planning to equip its destroyers with hypersonic missiles, outpacing China’s
supersonic anti-ship missiles, analysts said.

The move to install the highly advanced weapons came after US Secretary of Defence Mark Esper said in early October that the US Navy would need more than 500 ships in its fleet to ensure maritime superiority over China in coming decades.

According to military news website Defense News, which quoted US President Donald Trump’s national security adviser Robert O’Brien, the US will equip its attack submarines and its destroyers with hypersonic missiles in a bid to stave off the mounting threat posed by Chinain the Pacific.
==================================================================
We've apparently been developing hypersonic anti-ship missiles in parallel with Russia& China.

China doesn't hold a candle to our dominance of the sea. The navy is perhaps the biggest gap between our military and the rest of the militaries of the world compared to the Army.

 

[Tangmo]

While the PLA Navy has many more ships than does the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force (Navy), and far exceeds the Japan Maritime SDF in total tonnage, China continues to struggle with transitioning from its thousands of years with a riverboat navy only to a regional Navy in the 21st century with designs to become a blue water Navy globally.

Hence:

Why Japan's Navy is the Best in Asia (And Not China)

The facts are obvious.

The best navy in Asia has a total of 114 warships and 45,800 volunteer personnel. It has a large fleet of fast, powerful destroyers, thoroughly modern diesel-electric attack submarines, and amphibious ships that can haul tanks and other ground forces. It can hunt submarines, square off against invasion fleets, and shoot down enemy ballistic missiles. Technically, the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force is a “self-defense force” designed to overcome the country’s constitutional limits on armed forces. It is, ship for ship, the best navy in Asia.

JS Izumo is one of Japan's four aircraft carriers that are technically classified as a (submarine) destroyer. A Japanese destroyer is equal in size and firepower to a cruiser despite being technically classified as a destroyer because it continues to be light, swift, agile. Indeed, almost everything can be revealed about the art of deception against an enemy when one finds out Japanese generals and admirals wear cherry blossoms instead of stars.


The main component of the MSDF are its fleet of forty-six destroyers and frigates—more than that those fielded by the United Kingdom and France combined. Organized into escort flotillas, Japan’s tin-can navy is designed to defend the country from invasion, help retake Japanese territory and keep the sea-lanes open. One final reason why Japan’s navy is the best in Asia? On March 11, 2011, a magnitude 9.0 earthquake struck off the coast of northern Japan. Vice Admiral Hiromi Takashima, commandant of the Yokosuka Naval District [Tokyo Bay], immediately assumed temporary command of the entire MSDF and ordered all available ships north to the earthquake zone. The first ship left just forty-five minutes after the earthquake. Another seventeen ships packed with relief supplies departed within eighteen hours, some with only partially recalled crews. This ability to rapidly sortie the fleet with virtually no notice was perhaps the true test of the MSDF’s professionalism and efficiency.

Why Japan's Navy is the Best in Asia (And Not China)

One final reason why Japan’s navy is the best in Asia? On March 11, 2011, a magnitude 9.0 earthquake struck off the coast of northern Japan. Vice Admiral Hiromi Takashima, commandant of the Yokosuka Naval District, immediately assumed temporary command of the entire MSDF and ordered all...

nationalinterest.org

While Japan the island nation has a deep Naval history, experience, expertise as a blue water navy, China has none. Many Japan Maritime SDF officers are graduates of the U.S. Naval War College graduate programs while PLA Navy has but a handful with none in the pipeline any longer.

Japan SDF officers are fluent in English yet PLA Navy officers can barely say hello how are you or count down ten to zero in English. Enlistees in the JMSDF bring a superior public and private education to the service in contrast to the Chinese clones who are drilled by cadre teachers K-12 and indoctrinated instead of facilitated by educators. The standard of living and quality of life in Japan far exceed those of China.

And so on.

 

[Peter]

The UK is planning to base one of our carriers in the region so that'll help.

They've just finished final training with US Marine F-35 and are about to go on a maiden voyage through the region next year.

 

[Tangmo]

Through long term planning and long view coordination the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force (Navy) has focused on anti submarine warfare ASW while the USN has focused on offensive surface and air operations as well as undersea. The consequent gains and advances of the Japan Maritime SDF ASW were demonstrated effectively in June when a PLA Navy sub was spotted and driven out of its incursion into Japanese waters near Okinawa.


Japan Has A Plan For Dismantling China’s Submarine Fleet

Japanese forces chased a Chinese submarine out of Japanese waters [in June]. Officials in Tokyo characterized the sub’s infiltration as part of China’s escalating land-grab across the western Pacific.
Kaga—along with a P-1 patrol plane reportedly detected the submarine near Okinawa in southern Japan. For two days Kaga and patrol planes tailed the submarine until it finally left Japanese waters. The chases underscore Tokyo’s sophisticated plan for defeating Beijing’s undersea forces.

The Japanese carrier Kaga and a corvette escort in June 2020 in the East Sea between Japan and China. A Japan Maritime SDF destroyer is but a mite smaller than a cruiser while enhancing its speed and agility. Japan's four carriers are classified as submarine destroyers -- that is, a destroyer. JAPANESE MARITIME SELF-DEFENSE FORCE

Tokyo has optimized its entire fleet—subs, ships and planes—for anti-submarine warfare. In wartime, Japanese and allied forces would pursue a comprehensive strategy for dismantling the Chinese submarine fleet, according to Hua Dan, a lecturer at China’s Army Engineering University. Japanese and allied forces would undertake a campaign of “active offense,” involving direct air and missile attacks against Chinese submarine bases, shipyards and torpedo-manufacturing facilities. Meanwhile, Japanese vessels would mine the waters outside Chinese ports. Tokyo plans to modify Kaga and other helicopter-carriers to support F-35B stealth jump jets. The fighters could help to protect anti-submarine flotillas against Chinese counterattack.

Japan Has A Plan For Dismantling China’s Submarine Fleet

The balance of naval power in Asia is shifting, with China building more submarines and other naval vessels while Japan's fleet is stagnant. But Tokyo has optimized its entire fleet—subs, ships and planes—for anti-submarine warfare.

www.forbes.com

 

[Tangmo]

The UK is planning to base one of our carriers in the region so that'll help.

They've just finished final training with US Marine F-35 and are about to go on a maiden voyage through the region next year.

I've pointed out at numerous threads over time that at the Pentagon Japan has become in the East as UK continues to be to the US in the West. The three have in fact teamed up in a formal alliance to restrain and contain China militarily. UK has indeed committed one of its new aircraft carriers to the SCS.

Much as UK the island country off the continent of Europe and at the Atlantic Ocean has been the vital US ally for a century, Japan the island nation off the continent of Asia and at the Pacific has the same strategic value to the US on the other side of the world.


America, Japan and the UK: A New Three-Way Alliance against China?

Three of the most powerful democracies in the world are teaming up.

An AV-8B Harrier takes off from the flight deck of USS Bonhomme Richard . Flickr/Department of Defense

On October 20, 2016, the chief of the Japanese Maritime Force and the chiefs of the British and U.S. navies sat across the table from each other at the Pentagon to sign a trilateral cooperation agreement. This agreement commits all three navies to closer cooperation, with increased exercises and joint patrols in the future. This agreement sets forth a roadmap for what it calls “mutually desired strategic effects.” The tightening of UK-Japan relations comes at a time when rising powers in Asia-Pacific are causing critical uncertainty in the region and beyond. This has led to policymakers strengthening alliances around the world. The United Kingdom and Japan are a strong example of such an alliance that has been redoubled in recent years.

America, Japan and the UK: A New Three-Way Alliance against China?

In January 2016, standing on the flight deck of the USS Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier based in Japan, the UK defence secretary, Michael Fallon, spoke of Washington’s commitment to a “three-way alliance” between the United Kingdom, Japan and the United States. He stated that the three countries...

nationalinterest.org

 

[Tangmo]

The UK is planning to base one of our carriers in the region so that'll help.

They've just finished final training with US Marine F-35 and are about to go on a maiden voyage through the region next year.

The French Pacific Fleet has been involved for several years too, they just don't get much coverage by USA or UK media doing the same things USN PACOM does in the South China Sea, Taiwan Strait, East Sea. France is the only European country that maintains a Pacific Fleet so the aircraft carrier de Gaulle is with it six months a year.

UK armed forces have been welcomed into Japan to train with Japan Self Defense Forces to include flying Tornados from Japan to Singapore over the SCS which makes the Boyz in Beijing flap their arms and holler a lot while no one pays attention. Canada and Australia do FONOPS too in the areas Beijing claims are its divinely Chinese right, the Chinese always needing no higher authority than themselves. Japan, India & US do naval exercises together throughout the area, sometimes as 3 and sometimes as 2 so it figures that the UK new carrier will be in on this too.

Singapore Air Force has for years trained out of bases of the ROC Air Force on Taiwan which Beijing has apoplexy about and that everyone ignores too. Singapore says hey to Beijing, the Singapore air space is the size of a postage stamp and Beijing has caniptions about the SCS so basing the bulk of the Singapore AF on Taiwan for training is the natural thingy to do. US agrees completely of course and is said to encourage it, of all things.

Singapore just bought two dozen of the F-35 most of which will be based on Taiwan too. Japan bought 171 of the F-35 while Australia just picked out a couple of dozen of 'em to show the folk back home.

 

[BahamaBob]

Many in this thread touched on one of the biggest differences between China's Navy and that of the US. In short, the US has powerful allies and China has none.

 

[Tangmo]

Many in this thread touched on one of the biggest differences between China's Navy and that of the US. In short, the US has powerful allies and China has none.

We got 'em outnumbered, outgunned and outsmarted by light years.

Because US Navy and Japan Navy combined total nearly 500 ships.

With Taiwan the combined total exceeds 650 ships.

Add South Korea = 800 ships.

Plus Australia = 900 ships combined.

This is without counting US Strategic Partner India's 200 naval ships.

In 2015 India signed on to grant US armed forces access on request to all Indian military bases to include for operations against a third country. We're in 'em already stockpiling stuff to the ceilings. What tipped the scales was when Beijing told India, "The Indian Ocean isn't Indian."

Chinese just don't think these things through I'm afraid. Chinese figure all they need do is say Boo and because they're Chinese it's settled in the way they want and like -- insist on and demand absolutely, no compromise. So the slamdown is going to come as quite the shock to their system when it occurs. Break their back maybe.

 

[BahamaBob]

China also lacks other critical naval necessities. They have very limited resupply capability. They only have a hand full of small resupply ships. They lacks foreign port capabilities, meaning they would not be able to fuel their ships in time of war. The biggest lack however are aircraft carriers. The two carriers China has are old Soviet carriers. They are small and have a ski lift launch system. This severely limits the amount of fuel and armaments launched aircraft can carry. Without aircraft to protect their fleets they would be toast in a fight with the US.

Other problems with the Chinese navy are they have not been engaged in a naval battle for over 100 years. They lack experienced officers and men with knowhow on conducting naval warfare. In addition, many experts rate the quality of their ships and aircraft as poor. Because they also lack experience in building naval ships.

In short, they are no threat to the US.

 

[Tangmo]

China also lacks other critical naval necessities. They have very limited resupply capability. They only have a hand full of small resupply ships. They lacks foreign port capabilities, meaning they would not be able to fuel their ships in time of war. The biggest lack however are aircraft carriers. The two carriers China has are old Soviet carriers. They are small and have a ski lift launch system. This severely limits the amount of fuel and armaments launched aircraft can carry. Without aircraft to protect their fleets they would be toast in a fight with the US.

Other problems with the Chinese navy are they have not been engaged in a naval battle for over 100 years. They lack experienced officers and men with knowhow on conducting naval warfare. In addition, many experts rate the quality of their ships and aircraft as poor. Because they also lack experience in building naval ships.

In short, they are no threat to the US.

That's well taken here as the first paragraph is true because the Party-Government's PLA Navy is not a Blue Water Navy; moreover, China hasn't ever had a bone fide blue water navy. Indeed Beijing is focused on a Naval competency that is regional-coastal and the Party's Central Military Commission has its hands full on competency alone. Beijing remains a long way from having a blue water navy.

PLA Navy consists of three fleets oriented geographically, North Fleet around the Yellow Sea, Beijing, Tianjin, Dalian, the latter being what for the Chinese is a major naval base and ship construction facility and where the Party's Naval Academy is situated. Dalian is a small scale Norfolk in Virginia that's turning out PLA Naval ships like the USA turned out Liberty Ships in WW2, ie, rapidly and intended to float just not too fast or hard. Chinese submarines make more noise than any of my cars did while I was in college and I ran through quite a few of 'em to include an old gas guzzling Chrysler that could have plowed through the Siegfried line.

There's Central Fleet that faces the Rukyu Islands of Japan from Okinawa south to Taiwan and that is enclosed along the continental shelf by the Rukyu where there is no direct or clear access to the open western Pacific. The only direct access is the Miyako Strait just north of Taiwan controlled and heavily fortified by Japan with the US and Taiwan. It would not be worth it for Beijing to commit the Party's Navy to attempt any transit of Miyako during a conflict.

South Fleet based just off the China south coast at Hainan island -- in the north central South China Sea -- is the largest fleet but it is bifurcated, having both Taiwan and the SCS. I've seen published transcripts by the Taiwan Ministry of Defense and the USN (translated) of PLA Navy exercises off Taiwan by the Central Fleet and South Fleet and the two of 'em together still can't find their arse with both hands. Fleet commanders and Beijing keep doing a merry-go-round of which forces have what and when and in what strength. So they blast some live rounds into the water, call it a success and return to base.

The loyalty oath of the Chinese armed forces is to the Party -- Chinese Communist Party of course. And only. The Party owns the government and runs it to include the armed forces, meaning the Chinese military is a Party military not a state one. An officer need not be a Party member until the rank of colonel/naval captain at which point they must become a Party member. Rank after that to general or admiral costs 'em an arm and a leg and a laughable to us thesis on Mao's military genius.

US Naval Academy ended its albeit brief exchange program with the PLA Navy academy in Dalian after US Naval academy cadets who entered it reported back the curriculum was more like the US Merchant Marine Academy. Chinese Naval academy cadets at Annapolis soon returned voluntarily to Dalian dazed and confused.

 

[jbi]

The US navy seems to take the threat of China a lot more seriously than many of the folk on here it would seem.

 

[Port & Starboard]

That's well taken here as the first paragraph is true because the Party-Government's PLA Navy is not a Blue Water Navy; moreover, China hasn't ever had a bone fide blue water navy. Indeed Beijing is focused on a Naval competency that is regional-coastal and the Party's Central Military Commission has its hands full on competency alone. Beijing remains a long way from having a blue water navy.

PLA Navy consists of three fleets oriented geographically, North Fleet around the Yellow Sea, Beijing, Tianjin, Dalian, the latter being what for the Chinese is a major naval base and ship construction facility and where the Party's Naval Academy is situated. Dalian is a small scale Norfolk in Virginia that's turning out PLA Naval ships like the USA turned out Liberty Ships in WW2, ie, rapidly and intended to float just not too fast or hard. Chinese submarines make more noise than any of my cars did while I was in college and I ran through quite a few of 'em to include an old gas guzzling Chrysler that could have plowed through the Siegfried line.

There's Central Fleet that faces the Rukyu Islands of Japan from Okinawa south to Taiwan and that is enclosed along the continental shelf by the Rukyu where there is no direct or clear access to the open western Pacific. The only direct access is the Miyako Strait just north of Taiwan controlled and heavily fortified by Japan with the US and Taiwan. It would not be worth it for Beijing to commit the Party's Navy to attempt any transit of Miyako during a conflict.

South Fleet based just off the China south coast at Hainan island -- in the north central South China Sea -- is the largest fleet but it is bifurcated, having both Taiwan and the SCS. I've seen published transcripts by the Taiwan Ministry of Defense and the USN (translated) of PLA Navy exercises off Taiwan by the Central Fleet and South Fleet and the two of 'em together still can't find their arse with both hands. Fleet commanders and Beijing keep doing a merry-go-round of which forces have what and when and in what strength. So they blast some live rounds into the water, call it a success and return to base.

The loyalty oath of the Chinese armed forces is to the Party -- Chinese Communist Party of course. And only. The Party owns the government and runs it to include the armed forces, meaning the Chinese military is a Party military not a state one. An officer need not be a Party member until the rank of colonel/naval captain at which point they must become a Party member. Rank after that to general or admiral costs 'em an arm and a leg and a laughable to us thesis on Mao's military genius.

US Naval Academy ended its albeit brief exchange program with the PLA Navy academy in Dalian after US Naval academy cadets who entered it reported back the curriculum was more like the US Merchant Marine Academy. Chinese Naval academy cadets at Annapolis soon returned voluntarily to Dalian dazed and confused.

Regional power.

Unless it allies with Russia.