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Unintended consequences of attacking PP. [W:800, 1034]

Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Now you mentioned God here and here is my take on that. I believe that a person is deserving of all rights when thier soul becomes a part of thier body. Many refer to this as the quickening. Others believe that this happens when the fetus is conscious of its surroundings. IE when it starts to react to both positive and negative outside stimuli.

I believe that since God creates us, He creates us complete, soul included.
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

I really do believe life derives from life. Sperm and ova are alive, and a zygote, blastocyst, embryo, and fetus are alive unless they die, and they, too, can die. I see zygotes, morulae?, blastocysts, embryos, and fetuses as human organisms. However, embryos and fetuses really live only in attachment to women's live bodies. If a woman dies at or after the fetus is viable, however, it could be removed and would be a living born child. However much artificial aid is needed for it to continue to live, it can do that without a biological connection to a woman's bodily life. Life has at that point successfully derived from life, so that there are two distinct lives.

That I think this way has to do with not thinking the unique DNA of conception is as important as others do, for various reasons. First, no matter what DNA you have, if your life depends biologically on a specific other organism's life, your life is derivative. A human zygote or morula or blastocyst can get nutrients in a petri dish or, in a woman's body, from her body without implantation, so at this stage, that organism has short life of its own that does not derive from a woman's biological life, no question. But a blastocyst/embryo in a petri dish cannot live very long without that direct connection, and we do not know why. Something more than nutrients is derived from her life. This would be the case whether the DNA was unique or cloning occurred using the same DNA.

Second, DNA can contain defects that result in all sorts of deformations and diseases, but advances in genetics have allowed us to identify some of these problems, and the day will come when it will be possible as part of medical treatment to alter DNA to eliminate those problems. Will an organism's DNA being therapeutically altered change that organism into another organism? Would it change that organism's life into another organism's life?

If a woman carries a pregnancy to term and gives birth, the leakage of fetal and maternal cells and DNA across the placenta means that one can find different DNA in the woman's blood thereafter, and that the fetus gets DNA from the woman, too. This fetal-maternal microchimerism can occur even if the woman had implanted a fertilized ovum that was donated and had none of her own genetic contribution. Does this mean the woman is a different person, that her organism is a different organism? Does it mean that the embryo is now genetically unrelated to the ovum donor? I don't think so. An organism whose DNA is altered is still going to be the same organism, and a born person whose DNA is altered is still going to be the same born person.

On the other hand, if the biological life of one organism depends for its continuance on the biological life of another organism but not vice versa, then the the dependent organism's continued life is being derived from the other organism's life. That doesn't have to do with how unique one's DNA is, nor does it negate the fact that the organism is indeed an organism. But if you do not have the right to derive continued life for your body from my body, why would we make the claim for anyone else, born or unborn? Each one has a right to the life one can have without getting some from somebody else's life.

When a fetus attains viability, it can continue its own life without using someone else's bodily life. That is the capacity to be a live human being or person. Even if it has not yet developed all sorts of stuff necessary to have the sort of mental life that we associate with a person, it is not relying on a particular biological organism's life for the capacity to develop that stuff.

Well said choiceone.

I agree that viability is the point when the fetus is a live human being/person. Once it reaches viability it can survie seperate from another person's body.
Until then the Zygote/Embryo/EarlyFetus is a potential human being/person.
 
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Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

A person's choice to engage in unsafe behavior is their own responsibility. This includes unsafe abortion as much as it does drug use, bunji jumping, and road racing.
wow, u tuff guy....til it happens to one of ur own.

Which begs the question why don't conservatives want teens taught sex ed in public school or to have access to contraceptions if they want teens to act responsibly?
 
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Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

<SNIP>




The same applies to a ZEF prior to viability. You cannot take that ZEF and put it in another womans body in order for it to grow. If taken out it would die. So this arguement does not help a pro-lifers cause. And as I showed earlier it is perfectly acceptable to take a live, human, person off of life support so those are not qualifiers by themselves for the rights that you want ZEF's to have.

No, it is NOT a whole human being. At least not until viability. If it was a whole human being then it would be able to survive outside of the womb from day 1. Any picture that shows a zygote will also show a clump of cells. Because that is what it starts out as. This is biological fact. Just because it has all the chromosomes to make those things does not mean that it is a whole human being. (It also doesn't necessarily mean that it WILL make those things) As someone already stated in this thread...it is a potential human being as even with today's technology there is no gauruntee that it will be born...even without abortion to mix things up.

Well said.
Until viability the zygote/embryo/early fetus is a potential person.
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Everyone is a potential one day older human tomorrow assuming they don't die today.

Beyond that, a human is a human is a human. We potentially age.


The notion that we magically change species or become MORE alive or something akin to that is folly.
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Here is a joke about when babies get souls:
This is not meant to make fun of anyone's faith or beief's but just to lighten things up a bit.

Three neighbors, a Catholic housewife, a Protestant housewife, and a Jewish housewife, met for their customary coffee and coffeecake after seeing the kids off to school and washing the breakfast dishes. The conversation turned to abortion and the question of when human life begins.

The Catholic mother said: "Human life begins at conception. I don't see how you can see it any other way. Development is smooth from then on, and a fetus two weeks overdue is more developmentally mature than a baby one month premature. Birth is an artificial dividing line. Once the cell has 46 chromosomes, it's human."

The Protestant mother protested: "That's ridiculous. If having 46 human chromosomes makes a single cell human, doctors would be guilty of murder when they remove an appendix. You'd be guilty of mass murder when you brush your teeth. 1/2 of conceptions abort naturally. Are most women then guilty of negilgent homicide? Human life begins when the baby is capable of leading an independent existence. Human life begins at birth."

The Jewish mother shook her head and said: "You're both mistaken.
Human life begins when the kids leave home and the dog dies."
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

The standard response to this is...

"They should have kept thier legs closed...that they didn't means that they chose to get pregnant".
She is not being forced into reproductive slavery, the mother has a multitude of ways to avoid pregnancy. Failing to avail herself of the means to avoid pregnancy should not justify killing.
Which completely ignores rape, statutory rape, and incest. So, we reward a rapist by demanding his victim become a 9-month baby factory for him. Yeah, that's a good policy!


Ed:
Not all birth control works. Don't bother going down the celibacy road, either, that's just a cop out and you know it. Men have no such limitations so going down that route slaps a big SEXIST label on you and your kind.
 
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Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Which completely ignores rape, statutory rape, and incest. So, we reward a rapist by demanding his victim become a 9-month baby factory for him. Yeah, that's a good policy!

Because the rapist cares. :roll:
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Because the rapist cares. :roll:
Doesn't matter whether he cares or not. As a society we are perpetuating the genes of a rapist by allowing his baby to come to term. Or the genes of a incestuous father/brother/uncle/cousin, which isn't any better.


And, yes, some rapists DO care.
 
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Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Doesn't matter whether he cares or not. As a society we are perpetuating the genes of a rapist by allowing his baby to come to term. Or the genes of a incestuous father/brother/uncle/cousin, which is just as bad.


And, yes, some of them DO care.

Lol, so you think it will be a situation of father like son. :lamo
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Lol, so you think it will be a situation of father like son. :lamo
I would think you of all people would be a pro-choice.



Either way you put it society is forcing woman into reproductive slavery. They are given no choice and no control over their own body.
 
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Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Which completely ignores rape, statutory rape, and incest. So, we reward a rapist by demanding his victim become a 9-month baby factory for him. Yeah, that's a good policy!

I have routinely stated that a rape exception should remain in place.


Ed:
Not all birth control works. Don't bother going down the celibacy road, either, that's just a cop out and you know it. Men have no such limitations so going down that route slaps a big SEXIST label on you and your kind.


Right...you don't want a women to control her own body, afterall. Why would you argue that a woman controls her body and then argue that she has no control over when, where and how often she has sex?

Celibacy is a valid alternative to unwanted pregnancy, and proper use of birthcontrol is far more effective than most pro-choice activists would care to admit. In fact, most "birth control failures" result from improper use of birth control, not a failure of the birth control itself.
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

wow, u tuff guy....til it happens to one of ur own.

My own are more than aware that there is no unwanted pregnancy, and that if they are unable to care for any child of theirs, that my wife and I will. All that said, direct your comments at me, not my family.

Which begs the question why don't conservatives want teens taught sex ed in public school or to have access to contraceptions if they want teens to act responsibly?

I am very pro-sex ed. Try another talking point.
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

I believe that since God creates us, He creates us complete, soul included.

Yet, many others do not believe as you do...do you consider it acceptable to force them into your way of thinking?
Do you consider your opinion above hers?
and...would it be alright with you if your country outlawed Christianity?
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Exactly.
That is why I agree that up until viabilty a fetus is a potential human life.

The fact that the human organism grows between the point of conception and the point of viability proves that is is an actual human life before viability.
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

...snip....

Celibacy is a valid alternative to unwanted pregnancy.

Fusion is a valid alternative to Coal....but we are as likely to replace coal with fusion as we are to become celibate. You may be stronger, uglier, or in some way damaged, but to expect others to forgo this is imaginary.
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

The fact that the human organism grows between the point of conception and the point of viability proves that is is an actual human life before viability.

Okay...it is a human life.

Is it a Human Being?

Is it capable of thought?

Can it eat, breath, react?

"Every one of us began from a dot. A fertilized egg is roughly the size of the period at the end of this sentence. The momentous meeting of sperm and egg generally occurs in one of the two fallopian tubes. One cell becomes two, two become four, and so on—an exponentiation of base-2 arithmetic. By the tenth day the fertilized egg has become a kind of hollow sphere wandering off to another realm: the womb. It destroys tissue in its path. It sucks blood from capillaries. It bathes itself in maternal blood, from which it extracts oxygen and nutrients. It establishes itself as a kind of parasite on the walls of the uterus.

By the third week, around the time of the first missed menstrual period, the forming embryo is about 2 millimeters long and is developing various body parts. Only at this stage does it begin to be dependent on a rudimentary placenta. It looks a little like a segmented worm.

By the end of the fourth week, it's about 5 millimeters (about 1/5 inch) long. It's recognizable now as a vertebrate, its tube-shaped heart is beginning to beat, something like the gill arches of a fish or an amphibian become conspicuous, and there is a pronounced tail. It looks rather like a newt or a tadpole. This is the end of the first month after conception.

By the fifth week, the gross divisions of the brain can be distinguished. What will later develop into eyes are apparent, and little buds appear—on their way to becoming arms and legs.

By the sixth week, the embryo is 13 millimeteres (about ½ inch) long. The eyes are still on the side of the head, as in most animals, and the reptilian face has connected slits where the mouth and nose eventually will be.

By the end of the seventh week, the tail is almost gone, and sexual characteristics can be discerned (although both sexes look female). The face is mammalian but somewhat piglike.

By the end of the eighth week, the face resembles that of a primate but is still not quite human. Most of the human body parts are present in their essentials. Some lower brain anatomy is well-developed. The fetus shows some reflex response to delicate stimulation.

By the tenth week, the face has an unmistakably human cast. It is beginning to be possible to distinguish males from females. Nails and major bone structures are not apparent until the third month.

By the fourth month, you can tell the face of one fetus from that of another. Quickening is most commonly felt in the fifth month. The bronchioles of the lungs do not begin developing until approximately the sixth month, the alveoli still later.

So, if only a person can be murdered, when does the fetus attain personhood? When its face becomes distinctly human, near the end of the first trimester? When the fetus becomes responsive to stimuli--again, at the end of the first trimester? When it becomes active enough to be felt as quickening, typically in the middle of the second trimester? When the lungs have reached a stage of development sufficient that the fetus might, just conceivably, be able to breathe on its own in the outside air?

The trouble with these particular developmental milestones is not just that they're arbitrary. More troubling is the fact that none of them involves uniquely human characteristics--apart from the superficial matter of facial appearance. All animals respond to stimuli and move of their own volition. Large numbers are able to breathe. But that doesn't stop us from slaughtering them by the billions. Reflexes and motion are not what make us human.

Other animals have advantages over us--in speed, strength, endurance, climbing or burrowing skills, camouflage, sight or smell or hearing, mastery of the air or water. Our one great advantage, the secret of our success, is thought--characteristically human thought. We are able to think things through, imagine events yet to occur, figure things out. That's how we invented agriculture and civilization. Thought is our blessing and our curse, and it makes us who we are.

Thinking occurs, of course, in the brain--principally in the top layers of the convoluted "gray matter" called the cerebral cortex. The roughly 100 billion neurons in the brain constitute the material basis of thought. The neurons are connected to each other, and their linkups play a major role in what we experience as thinking. But large-scale linking up of neurons doesn't begin until the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy--the sixth month. "
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Guess a fair population of men (including some women) believe that woman only exist for men as a sexual playground and doomed to subservience and breeding when men have a whim to proliferate...or an accidental pregnancy. After giving birth the tasks for women then is to work 24/7 being subservient to both their men and a child or children, and more than likely a job outside the home. Nice. Oh what a heavenly experience a woman must have...and merely by circumstance of birth.

If there is such thing as god that is the supposed creator...then it's gotta be a chauvinistic, misogynists, womanizing cold blooded dude.
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

The fact that the human organism grows between the point of conception and the point of viability proves that is is an actual human life before viability.

I concider it to be a potential human being/person ... as choice one said :"because whether or not the potential is realized depends on whether or not the blastocyst implants in the uterine wall, the embryo continues to stay implanted, and the fetus continues to grow, as well as whether or not the woman wants to bring it to term."

I had two known miscarriges.
Those EFs did NOT grow to viability.
 
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Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Fusion is a valid alternative to Coal....but we are as likely to replace coal with fusion as we are to become celibate. You may be stronger, uglier, or in some way damaged, but to expect others to forgo this is imaginary.

Irrelevant propaganda. It is a valid, and effective, alternative to unwanted pregnancy. One that does not involve killing anything. Now, tell me where I said it was the only alternative...
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Okay...it is a human life.

Is it a Human Being?

Is it capable of thought?

Can it eat, breath, react?

All of this is subjective criteria for assigning a status which is entirely a human construct, not a biological classification.
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

I concider it to be a potential human being/person

You said "a human life" not human being/person. Objectively a human being is any member of the species homo sapien, which any organism with human DNA is. Person is entirely subjective.

... as choice one said :"because whether or not the potential is realized depends on whether or not the blastocyst implants in the uterine wall, the embryo continues to stay implanted, and the fetus continues to grow, as well as whether or not the woman wants to bring it to term."

I had two known miscarriges.
Those EFs did NOT grow to viability.

This reperesents the human frailty that we are all susceptible to and is not restricted to our ZEF stages. We are all indeed capable of death at any given moment. That capability does not alter our (born, viable persons) status as human beings, nor does it alter the ZEF's.
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

Nope...it means they chose to have sex. Pretty much everyone chooses to have sex, likely even you have made this choice (and if not I highly recommend it).
Thing is, when you have sex you do not risk getting pregnant, she does. Considering this simple biological fact, does it not make sense that SHE be given the final say?

Didn't say that I agree with it. Just that that is the standard reply. BTW, I'm pro-choice. ;) and I have 2 kids of my own. ;)
 
Re: Unintended consequences of attacking PP.

She is not being forced into reproductive slavery, the mother has a multitude of ways to avoid pregnancy. Failing to avail herself of the means to avoid pregnancy should not justify killing.

Who says that they don't avail herself of those means? Is it her fault that the BC fails?
 
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