"Ukraine will block supplies to Europe if no deal is reached"

[kaya'08]

Talks to resolve a gas supply row between Ukraine and Russia have failed, raising fears of possible energy shortages across Europe.

Gazprom said gas supplies to Ukraine would be cut on Thursday but that Russia would do its best to guarantee supplies to Europe.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin earlier said that Ukraine would block supplies to Europe if no deal was done.

Ukraine denies owing money to Gazprom, and says it has guaranteed gas transit.

Full story here:
BBC NEWS | Europe | Russia-Ukraine gas talks collapse

Seems Europe might see some energy shortages soon...just what we need.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

The Russians and Ukrainians have us by the short and curlies over fuel. The Russians can cut our gas any time they like but an internecine struggle between former Soviet Bloc countries is the last thing we need.

We need to invest in alternate technologies and fast. This means nuclear / clean coal and any promising technologies for the future including Hydrogen.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Russia shuts off gas to Ukraine
Russia has stopped all gas supplies to Ukraine after the collapse of talks to end a row over unpaid bills and prices.

Russia's gas giant Gazprom said it turned off the taps at 0700 GMT, when its contract to supply Ukraine ended.

Ukraine insists it has paid off its debts to Gazprom, but Russia contests this. The two countries have also failed to agree on a price for 2009.

Both Russia and Ukraine insist that gas supplies transported via Ukraine to the European Union will continue as normal.

BBC Latest on this story

Worrying news... the gas pipe that runs through Ukraine into Europe is supposed to remain untouched as both countries say they won't stop supplies to Europe but for how long.....

 

[justone]

‘’To ensure an adequate supply of gas for the European market, Kupriyanov stated “Deliveries for export have been increased to 326 million cubic metres per day."

To ensure that European customers are not disrupted, and that there is no illegal siphoning of gas, Gazprom has independent observers monitoring pipeline exit and entrance points. Ukraine is physically refusing to let the observers in and perform their assigned function within Ukraine. ‘’

‘’Naftogaz [Ukraine] had threatened in a letter addressed to the energy giant, that it could start confiscating Russian gas meant for European consumers after January 1, if no new contract is agreed for 2009.
Russia's Vesti-24 television channel said, however, that a pumping station in Slovakia near the Ukrainian border had not reported any reduction in the amount of Russian gas being pumped to Europe. The station said it would be clear within a couple of hours if Ukraine was carrying out its threat. ‘’
RIA Novosti - World - Russia fully cuts gas to Ukraine, ups supplies to Europe
Translated version of http://www.rian.ru/economy/20090101/158461432.html

Translated version of http://www.rian.ru/economy/20090101/158460787.html



Bloomberg.com: Worldwide Gazprom cut supplies to Ukraine at 10 a.m. Moscow time yesterday after the country rejected a Russian offer to sell it gas this year at $250 per 1,000 cubic meters, and insisted Russia pay higher transit fees. Naftogaz Chief Executive Officer Oleh Dubina said Ukraine offered on Dec. 31 to pay Russia $235 per 1,000 cubic meters, compared with the 2008 rate of $179.50.
U.K. February gas fell 2.70 pence, or 4.6 percent, to 56 pence a therm, according to data from broker Spectron Group Ltd. That’s equal to $8.13 a million British thermal units. A therm is 100,000 Btus. It rose as high as 60 pence earlier today, the first trading session after Russia cut supplies to Ukraine yesterday. Dutch gas for February fell 3.7 percent to 20.60 euros ($28.72) a megawatt hour.
The main consumers of Russian gas transported through Ukraine said they are so far unaffected or are prepared for any drop. Hungary, Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic today said their supplies have so far been unaffected. Italy said it can meet any short-term

UPDATE:
EU calls crisis talks as Russian gas flow dwindles | U.S. | Reuters
Russia's gas export monopoly Gazprom accused Ukraine of stealing gas in transit. Gas importers in Romania, Hungary and Poland said pressure on their pipelines had dropped.
"Gas inflows from import fell by 30 to 40 percent ... This is because of Ukraine's dispute with Russia," Romania's state-controlled pipeline operator Transgaz director Ioan Rusu told Reuters by telephone.
There were similar reports of less steep supply falls from Budapest and Warsaw.
"Pressure started to decline at 1500 GMT. Pressure is declining continuously. However, the drop has not yet reached a critical level," Edina Lakatos, a spokeswoman for the Hungarian energy company MOL's natural gas transmission subsidiary, said.
Ukraine's state energy firm Naftogaz denied it was illegally siphoning off Russian gas.
Gazprom's accusation suggested Moscow was in no mood for compromise in a re-run of a 2006 argument that led to supply shortages across the EU.
"The Ukrainian side openly admits it is stealing gas and is not ashamed of this," Gazprom spokesman Sergei Kupriyanov said, adding that Gazprom had increased exports to Europe via an alternative route -- Belarus
Ukraine to divert some European gas on Jan. 3: Russia | Reuters

In short the USSR built the gas line to Europe on the part of its territory called Ukraine. Ukraine then declared independence and announced that it owned the pipeline. Russia has to pay Ukraine for using the pipeline. Ukraine wants to jack up the price for the usage like it is not a part of the USSR anymore, but it wants to pay the lower price for gas like it is still the part of the USSR . The West of course is blaming Russia, - for what exactly?
Updates can be found here, (Ukranian side is not up to the date though – too much to hide)
Gazprom
Naftogaz of Ukraine /

 

[Kernel Sanders]

Everything I've seen points to Ukraine being at fault. They claim to have paid the bill but refused to say how much they paid. They claimed they would guarantee transir but now appear to be leaching gas. Why not take a leaf from the US and print money and spend debt like it's free cash?

 

[kaya'08]

"Do what pleases Russia". Thats always been the attitude for neighbouring countries near Russia. The warsaw pact is dead and the soviet union is nothing but dust from the past, but regardless, they still have these countries by the balls. Ukraine wont have the last word, Russia will. If they say cut the supplies, let the bastards suffer, then thats exactly what will happen. And i couldnt give a flying tit. I think Europe and America should learn not to rely on there enemies to supply them fundamental resources; the resources used to gear our economies, be it gas or oil.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Full story here:
BBC NEWS | Europe | Russia-Ukraine gas talks collapse

Seems Europe might see some energy shortages soon...just what we need.

Yeah, and then Europe will block Ukraine from further EU talks and future membership. Ukraine wouldn't dare trying.. It would mean the difference between an ever poor and a strong and rich Ukraine.. Besides, the Baltic pipeline is almost finished, Ukraine don't actually have any cards to play.

 

[justone]

"Do what pleases Russia". Thats always been the attitude for neighbouring countries near Russia. The warsaw pact is dead and the soviet union is nothing but dust from the past, but regardless, they still have these countries by the balls. Ukraine wont have the last word, Russia will. If they say cut the supplies, let the bastards suffer, then thats exactly what will happen. And i couldnt give a flying tit. I think Europe and America should learn not to rely on there enemies to supply them fundamental resources; the resources used to gear our economies, be it gas or oil.

You choose your friends and you enemies and get what you deserve.

 

[justone]

Yeah, and then Europe will block Ukraine from further EU talks and future membership. Ukraine wouldn't dare trying.. It would mean the difference between an ever poor and a strong and rich Ukraine.. Besides, the Baltic pipeline is almost finished, Ukraine don't actually have any cards to play.

Ukraine chooses its friends and its enemies and gets what it deserves.

 

[Sanpel]

Don’t you think that the whole problem of the gas crisis was simply framed up by pro-American protégés in Europe? Just see, one pro-US puppet, namely Ukraine, outright groundlessly refuses to carry out its gas transit obligations. Even worse, Ukrainian government is stealing gas meant for other European gas consumers! Another pro-US puppet, which is Czech Republic that has taken over EU chair since the beginning of 2009, doesn’t do much to reach the quickest solution to the problem spinning out the process. Why is it done so, how do you think? Of course that’s only due to the plans of Washington for weakening the European Union! Perhaps, even split it apart! How grievous that some time ago the EU leadership reached at a decision to admit these snakes in the grass of Czech Republic and Poland! By doing this, the EU has become more vulnerable to the threat from the side of the USA. What's done cannot be undone…

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Don’t you think that the whole problem of the gas crisis was simply framed up by pro-American protégés in Europe? Just see, one pro-US puppet, namely Ukraine, outright groundlessly refuses to carry out its gas transit obligations. Even worse, Ukrainian government is stealing gas meant for other European gas consumers! Another pro-US puppet, which is Czech Republic that has taken over EU chair since the beginning of 2009, doesn’t do much to reach the quickest solution to the problem spinning out the process. Why is it done so, how do you think? Of course that’s only due to the plans of Washington for weakening the European Union! Perhaps, even split it apart! How grievous that some time ago the EU leadership reached at a decision to admit these snakes in the grass of Czech Republic and Poland! By doing this, the EU has become more vulnerable to the threat from the side of the USA. What's done cannot be undone…

The EU isnt weakened at all. The only thing that is weakened is the faith in both Ukraine and Russia, especially Russia and its reliability. In due course this will only make EU hasten its renewable energy plans and push more on the EU nations for them to more rapidly adopt other forms of energy than gas from Russia. I think Europe will unite strongly against Russia on this one, with possible sanctions and threats that will force Russia into submitting to our needs.

 

[Laila]

Full story here:
BBC NEWS | Europe | Russia-Ukraine gas talks collapse

Seems Europe might see some energy shortages soon...just what we need.

Gas shortages? Not in the winter! Its damn cold here. How unlucky.

 

[shiznit770]

"Do what pleases Russia". Thats always been the attitude for neighbouring countries near Russia. The warsaw pact is dead and the soviet union is nothing but dust from the past, but regardless, they still have these countries by the balls. Ukraine wont have the last word, Russia will. If they say cut the supplies, let the bastards suffer, then thats exactly what will happen. And i couldnt give a flying tit. I think Europe and America should learn not to rely on there enemies to supply them fundamental resources; the resources used to gear our economies, be it gas or oil.

Maybe we should stop treating Russia like an enemy. Could it be possible these former Soviet Bloc countries are crying Wolf for the sake of international attention?

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Maybe we should stop treating Russia like an enemy. Could it be possible these former Soviet Bloc countries are crying Wolf for the sake of international attention?

European inspectors are in the Ukraine now... This will lay bare the reason for the disruptions..

BBC NEWS | Europe | EU gas monitors arrive in Ukraine

 

[justone]

European inspectors are in the Ukraine now... This will lay bare the reason for the disruptions..

BBC NEWS | Europe | EU gas monitors arrive in Ukraine

Following the meeting, Yulia Tymoshenko said that Ukraine is ready to sign the protocol proposed by Russia to establish a multilateral commission to monitor the transit of gas through Ukrainian territory.
“We will sign such a protocol,” she told journalists after the meeting.

Gazprom spokesman Sergey Kupriyanov said, “The protocol for the creation of a multilateral committee to monitor the transit of gas through the territory of Ukraine has not yet been signed. According to latest reports, the Ukrainian government was ready to sign the protocol. But it seems that President Yushchenko has not decided to sign it.”


It was previously reported that European observers arrived in Kiev on Friday and have begun monitoring. Sergey Kupriyanov said, “As long as the protocol is not signed by all parties, these specialists do not have observer status. They also have nothing to monitor in Kiev. Monitoring should be carried out at the entrances and exits of the Ukrainian gas transport system and at Ukrainian underground gas storage facilities.”

Gazprom

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Following the meeting, Yulia Tymoshenko said that Ukraine is ready to sign the protocol proposed by Russia to establish a multilateral commission to monitor the transit of gas through Ukrainian territory.
“We will sign such a protocol,” she told journalists after the meeting.

Gazprom spokesman Sergey Kupriyanov said, “The protocol for the creation of a multilateral committee to monitor the transit of gas through the territory of Ukraine has not yet been signed. According to latest reports, the Ukrainian government was ready to sign the protocol. But it seems that President Yushchenko has not decided to sign it.”


It was previously reported that European observers arrived in Kiev on Friday and have begun monitoring. Sergey Kupriyanov said, “As long as the protocol is not signed by all parties, these specialists do not have observer status. They also have nothing to monitor in Kiev. Monitoring should be carried out at the entrances and exits of the Ukrainian gas transport system and at Ukrainian underground gas storage facilities.”

Gazprom

The Europeans are also there to find out who is to blame for the gas disruptions.

 

[justone]

The Europeans are also there to find out who is to blame for the gas disruptions.

For the sakes of basic logic:

Why only in Kiev, but not also in Moscow?

For the sakes of basic logic:

They also have NOTHING to monitor in Kiev.

Monitoring should be carried out at the entrances and exits of the Ukrainian gas transport system and at Ukrainian underground gas storage facilities.”

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

For the sakes of basic logic:

Why only in Kiev, but not also in Moscow?

For the sakes of basic logic:

They also have NOTHING to monitor in Kiev.

Monitoring should be carried out at the entrances and exits of the Ukrainian gas transport system and at Ukrainian underground gas storage facilities.”

If its the fault of Russia they will easily find that out by inspecting only in Ukraine.

 

[justone]

If its the fault of Russia they will easily find that out by inspecting only in Ukraine.

Which part of the word ""Kiev"" is unclear to you??

What is unclear in the words entrances and exits of the Ukrainian gas transport system
What is unclear in the words
and at Ukrainian underground gas storage facilities?

 

[Tashah]

They also have NOTHING to monitor in Kiev.

I assume then that the pipeling does not transit Kyiv. Correct?

Monitoring should be carried out at the entrances and exits of the Ukrainian gas transport system and at Ukrainian underground gas storage facilities.”

Simple enough. The inflow is measured at the Ukraine/Russia border and outflow is measured at the transit exit(s). If there is a discrepancy, it has to occur within Ukraine. Either saved, used, or bled off. Correct?

 

[justone]

I assume then that the pipeling does not transit Kyiv. Correct?

I don't know. In either case it does not provide any practical measurements as below.

Simple enough. The inflow is measured at the Ukraine/Russia border and outflow is measured at the transit exit(s). If there is a discrepancy, it has to occur within Ukraine. Either saved, used, or bled off. Correct?

Simple enough.
Ukraine/Russia border and Russian border pumping stations and The West /Ukraine border and Western pumping stations.

As well ''saved, used or bled off'' if such occurs goes into ''Ukrainian underground gas storage facilities'' with consideration of storage vs. daily usage.

I think it is all correct.

 

[Tashah]

I think it is all correct.

Then I agree with your pipeline monitoring methodology... ingress, egress, and internal storage facilities. Probably the only utility value of Kyiv is in determining Ukranian gas consumption at the appropriate Ministry.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

BBC NEWS | Europe | Accord signed in Russia gas row

I guess this means its partly resolved..
Now Europe just needs to put pressure on Ukraine and wave the EU carrot at them to completely resolve it..

 

[kaya'08]

eu carrot:

 

[jujuman13]

Might I respectfully suggest that those who have posted on this thread go to this other thread and read my piece.

"Europe baffled by broken gas promises"

I have attempted to explain what is actually happening, I have tried to explain some of the Technical reasons given for the ceasation of pumping by the Ukrainians.

What no one of those who post has actually managed to reason out for themselves is that in order to PUMP Gas through any pipeline you need Compressors, these Compressors are powered by Gas.