UK and France 'in talks' to deploy troops to Ukraine over fears of US removing support

[georgephillip]

This "mass murder of millions of innocent human beings".

Are you speaking of Stalin?

Because you can't be speaking of the US and her allies.

How many Cambodians did Stalin murder?
How does that number compare to Kissinger's?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67582813

"Ben Kiernan, a historian at Yale University and a leading scholar on Cambodia, has estimated that around 500,000 tons of US bombs were dropped on Cambodia between 1969-1973..."

"A New York Times report by Sydney Schanberg, who was later portrayed in the film the Killing Fields, quoted a man called Keo Chan, whose wife and 10 children had just been killed.

"'All my family is dead!' he cried, beating his hand on the wooden bench where he had collapsed. 'All my family is dead! Take my picture, take my picture! Let the Americans see me!'"

 

[Fledermaus]

How many Cambodians did Stalin murder?
How does that number compare to Kissinger's?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67582813

"Ben Kiernan, a historian at Yale University and a leading scholar on Cambodia, has estimated that around 500,000 tons of US bombs were dropped on Cambodia between 1969-1973..."

"A New York Times report by Sydney Schanberg, who was later portrayed in the film the Killing Fields, quoted a man called Keo Chan, whose wife and 10 children had just been killed.

"'All my family is dead!' he cried, beating his hand on the wooden bench where he had collapsed. 'All my family is dead! Take my picture, take my picture! Let the Americans see me!'"

How many Russians did Stalin kill?

Millions.

How many Ukrainians did Stalin kill through his economic plans?

Millions.

How many died under Stalin due to ethnic cleansing/relocation?

Millions.

So, yeah, let's compare Stalin to the US.

 

[georgephillip]

Your world vision is tragically simplistic. Its OK...I dont fault you. You have been conditioned. Tragically...I expect it from people like you.

Why don't you explain the morality of basing an economy on war and debt if you're capable.

 

[Roadvirus]

God willing, Trump will put an end to the madness of Biden and the war pigs.

Adopting the 1960s Anti-Vietnam war vernacular as well?

 

[georgephillip]

What is the US doing in Gaza that ignores the Rule of International Law?

Not what is the IDF doing.

Please be clear and concise.

The IDF wouldn't be in Gaza without US weapons and diplomatic cover. If you're still confused, enabling genocide is a war crime even when it's Americans facilitating the mass murder of civilians.

 

[Roadvirus]

What do you know that MLK did not?

How many cities has America laid waste to this year?
How many has Russia?

 

[Fledermaus]

The IDF wouldn't be in Gaza without US weapons and diplomatic cover. If you're still confused, enabling genocide is a war crime even when it's Americans facilitating the mass murder of civilians.

What is the US doing in Gaza that ignores the Rule of International Law?

Doing.

As in action.

Your claim the IDF wouldn't be in Gaza without US weapons is rather ignorant given the weapons manufacturing capabilities of Israel.

 

[Fledermaus]

How many cities has America laid waste to this year?
How many has Russia?

None for the US.

Plenty for Russia. Ask the Ukrainians.

 

[georgephillip]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

There was something going on around that time....

Wasn't there a war going one?

A war that would stretch out much longer and result in literal millions dying?

A war that ended due in part to those two bombings.

Japan lost all incentive to continue the conflict when the Soviet army liberated Manchuria and Korea. Truman used the nuclear bombs to intimidate Stalin into accepting American hegemony in 1945.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Will Biden send US troops to Ukraine on his way out the door? Stay tuned.

UK and France 'in talks' to deploy troops to Ukraine over fears of US support

London and Paris want to create a "core of allies in Europe" as fears intensify that President-elect Donald Trump could withdraw military support for Ukraine.

www.express.co.uk

Just this past June (06/13/24) the Biden Administration entered into a "Bilateral Security Agreement" with Ukraine. It is a 10-year agreement committing the US to supporting "the full range of Ukraine’s current defensive needs now and over the long term by helping Ukraine win the war and strengthening its deterrence capabilities against future threats." That this is a "key part of Ukraine’s bridge to NATO membership."

FACT SHEET: U.S.-Ukraine Bilateral Security Agreement | The White House

On June 13th, 2024, President Biden and Ukrainian President Zelenskyy signed a historic U.S.-Ukraine Bilateral Security Agreement reflecting the close

www.whitehouse.gov

So, the outgoing Biden Administration has locked the USA into not only "helping Ukraine win the war," but eventually admitting it to NATO. All this just six months prior to the Trump Administration taking office. I'm sure the Cheney's and the other warmongers of the Military-Industrial Complex President Eisenhower warned us about are happy to put this onto Trump.

I want the Left-Leaning members of this Forum to remember this in future when/if Trump may have to act due to a commitment he never made.

 

[Fledermaus]

Japan lost all incentive to continue the conflict when the Soviet army liberated Manchuria and Korea. Truman used the nuclear bombs to intimidate Stalin into accepting American hegemony in 1945.

If by liberated you mean installed Communist dictatorships you would be correct.

 

[georgephillip]

How is the PURCHASE/LEASE of land "theft"?

In Europe's most corrupt state, land theft comes in many forms

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/si.../files/takeover-ukraine-agricultural-land.pdf (P. 4/33)

"With 33 million hectares of arable land, Ukraine has large swaths of the most fertile farmland in theworld.1

"Misguided privatization and corrupt governance since the early 1990s have concentrated land in the hands of a new oligarchic class.

"Around 4.3 million hectares are under large-scale agriculture, with the bulk, three million hectares, in the hands of just a dozen large agribusiness firms.2

"In addition, according to the government, about five million hectares – the size of two Crimea – have been 'stolen' by private interests from the state of Ukraine.3

"The total amount of land controlled by oligarchs, corrupt individuals, and large agribusinesses is thus over nine million hectares, exceeding 28 percent of the country’s arable land.

"The rest is used by over eight million Ukrainian farmers."

 

[Mycroft]

Just this past June (06/13/24) the Biden Administration entered into a "Bilateral Security Agreement" with Ukraine. It is a 10-year agreement committing the US to supporting "the full range of Ukraine’s current defensive needs now and over the long term by helping Ukraine win the war and strengthening its deterrence capabilities against future threats." That this is a "key part of Ukraine’s bridge to NATO membership."

FACT SHEET: U.S.-Ukraine Bilateral Security Agreement | The White House

On June 13th, 2024, President Biden and Ukrainian President Zelenskyy signed a historic U.S.-Ukraine Bilateral Security Agreement reflecting the close

www.whitehouse.gov

So, the outgoing Biden Administration has locked the USA into not only "helping Ukraine win the war," but eventually admitting it to NATO. All this just six months prior to the Trump Administration taking office. I'm sure the Cheney's and the other warmongers of the Military-Industrial Complex President Eisenhower warned us about are happy to put this onto Trump.

I want the Left-Leaning members of this Forum to remember this in future when/if Trump may have to act due to a commitment he never made.

This agreement doesn't preclude Trump from getting the two sides to negotiate a settlement. It also doesn't prevent Trump from vetoing any vote to admit Ukraine into NATO.

As for the rest of it...you can count on Trump dragging his feet whenever possible.

So, for the next four years, this agreement is irrelevant.

 

[eohrnberger]

Just this past June (06/13/24) the Biden Administration entered into a "Bilateral Security Agreement" with Ukraine. It is a 10-year agreement committing the US to supporting "the full range of Ukraine’s current defensive needs now and over the long term by helping Ukraine win the war and strengthening its deterrence capabilities against future threats." That this is a "key part of Ukraine’s bridge to NATO membership."

FACT SHEET: U.S.-Ukraine Bilateral Security Agreement | The White House

On June 13th, 2024, President Biden and Ukrainian President Zelenskyy signed a historic U.S.-Ukraine Bilateral Security Agreement reflecting the close

www.whitehouse.gov

So, the outgoing Biden Administration has locked the USA into not only "helping Ukraine win the war," but eventually admitting it to NATO. All this just six months prior to the Trump Administration taking office. I'm sure the Cheney's and the other warmongers of the Military-Industrial Complex President Eisenhower warned us about are happy to put this onto Trump.

I want the Left-Leaning members of this Forum to remember this in future when/if Trump may have to act due to a commitment he never made.

Hunter's directorship and lavish compensation doesn't come cheap?

 

[VanceMack]

Why don't you explain the morality of basing an economy on war and debt if you're capable.

I'm no fan of debt...but thats as much on the citizens that demand federal government spending as it is the politicians. But that that is the limited scope of your vision is as telling as everything you have said.

 

[Roadvirus]

Ukraine should have known better than to provoke Russia.

Ukraine didn't provoke Putzin.

 

[Roadvirus]

Ukraine is among the most corrupt governments on earth, so naturally US war-whores celebrate its culture of greed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine#:~:text=Transparency%20International's%202023%20Corruption,Ukraine%20a%20score%20of%2036.

"In 2012 Ernst & Young put Ukraine among the three most-corrupt nations from 43 surveyed, alongside Colombia and Brazil.[24][25]

"In 2015 The Guardian called Ukraine 'the most corrupt nation in Europe'.[26]

"According to a poll conducted by Ernst & Young in 2017, experts considered Ukraine to be the ninth-most corrupt nation from 53 surveyed.[27]

"Transparency International's 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI), which scored 180 countries on a scale from 0 ('highly corrupt') to 100 ('very clean'), gave Ukraine a score of 36.

"When ranked by score, Ukraine ranked 104th among the 180 countries in the Index, where the country ranked first is perceived to have the most honest public sector.[28]

"For comparison with worldwide scores, the best score was 90 (ranked 1), the worst score was 11 (ranked 180), and the average score was 43"

Ukraine's gone down in the corruption index. Russia, on the other hand, has gone up.

 

[CLAX1911]

Wow these worthless sacks of crap are actually going to do something?

It is Europe they should have been there first. But not the Americans do it. I've never wanted to leave Ukraine more than I do now.

 

[georgephillip]

It's disgusting how enriching the military industrial complex has become a normal thing.

It's hard to imagine how any society that regards itself as "good guys" can tolerate its investor class profiting from war and/or debt, yet that appears to be how this world has worked for thousands of years.

https://michael-hudson.com/2023/05/the-arc-of-time-pro-creditor-history/

"So I find the common theme that made Western civilization different from everything that went before was the fact that they didn’t cancel the debts, that Western civilization let an oligarchy take over.

"Instead of the basic rule, that debts have to be written down to the ability to pay, Rome introduced a pro-creditor law.

"All the debts have to be paid no matter what the social consequences are, no matter how much society is injured by families losing their land and the land being concentrated, the money being concentrated, the wealth being concentrated and political power being concentrated in the hands of a creditor oligarchy."

 

[georgephillip]

It's interesting that the "military industrial complex" is into farming now....

Oh, wait.

What's the difference between oil and food?

 

[georgephillip]

Yugoslavia had devolved long before NATO was involved. And why does stopping genocide and ethnic cleansing trigger you?

Also NATO was engaged in Libya to prevent Libyan military from slaughtering civilians. It was LIBYAN rebels that toppled Qaddafi.

The ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia increased after NATO's illegal intervention while its campaign of bombing in Libya brought the return of open air slave markets to Tripoli and mass displacement to civilians to Europe

Mission Accomplished?

 

[Fledermaus]

The ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia increased after NATO's illegal intervention while its campaign of bombing in Libya brought the return of open air slave markets to Tripoli and mass displacement to civilians to Europe

Mission Accomplished?

Wow ...

There was no Yugoslavia.

And your claim ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia increased after NATO's intervention is rejected.

As to Libya. NATO intervention was to prevent the slaughter of civilians. What resulted after was due to Libyians.

 

[Fledermaus]

What's the difference between oil and food?

One is food. The other is oil.

You couldn't figure that one out?

 

[Fledermaus]

In Europe's most corrupt state, land theft comes in many forms

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/si.../files/takeover-ukraine-agricultural-land.pdf (P. 4/33)

"With 33 million hectares of arable land, Ukraine has large swaths of the most fertile farmland in theworld.1

"Misguided privatization and corrupt governance since the early 1990s have concentrated land in the hands of a new oligarchic class.

"Around 4.3 million hectares are under large-scale agriculture, with the bulk, three million hectares, in the hands of just a dozen large agribusiness firms.2

"In addition, according to the government, about five million hectares – the size of two Crimea – have been 'stolen' by private interests from the state of Ukraine.3

"The total amount of land controlled by oligarchs, corrupt individuals, and large agribusinesses is thus over nine million hectares, exceeding 28 percent of the country’s arable land.

"The rest is used by over eight million Ukrainian farmers."

The question was....

How is the PURCHASE/LEASE of land "theft"?

 

[georgephillip]

Baloney. They choose to fight. No one's forcing them. The U.S. gov't and our Defense industry are just providing them with the tools to do it.

Ukrainians "choose" to fight after the US facilitated a far-right coup government in Kiev which triggered an 8 year long civil war by exploiting ethnic tensions between western and eastern Ukrainians.

Our "defense" industry runs on taxpayer dollars (socialized cost) and expects to be repaid by western oligarchs stripping key Ukrainian assets (privatized profits):

https://mronline.org/2024/12/24/u-s-corporate-land-grab-in-ukraine-underlies-war-with-russia/

"In early November, Barbara Bonte, a Belgian member of the European Union (EU) parliament, raised concern about the sell-off of Ukrainian land on a massive scale to U.S. private equity firms along with some Saudi agro-industrial and investment businesses..."

"Bonte then posed two questions to the EU parliament as follows:

1. What is the Commission’s assessment of the impact of this sell-off of European farmland to multinationals serving only U.S. interests on EU strategic food-supply dependence? How does the Commission intend to address that impact?'
2. "This strongly suggests that the United States is seeking to recoup its military support for Ukraine, and ensure a geopolitical presence there in a post-war scenario through control over Ukrainian farmland and the profits it generates."