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U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outside gr

Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

302s are not hearsay because hearsay isn't admissible at all. That's a basic point you seem to be missing.

Dude, with all due respect, I'm not trying to be rude. I am not even at a place where I feel like arguing anymore at this point, but if you want to learn about what we are talking about it would be super helpful if you'd set aside some time to read what I linked to.

Now, it's okay if you don't want to read it. I get it. It's actual work. It's kind of boring. But you be doing yourself an immense favor if this topic, this stuff about the 302s and how they are used in court, is something that interests you.
 
302s are not conclusory documents, and they are not verbatim recordings of an interview. They're just basically a memo incorporating the agent's notes of a conversation.

The only evidence of Flynn lying would be the 302, there are no recordings. Strzok rewote the 302, whether or not Flynn lied has been called into question, not to mention Flynn's defense hasn't even been given the recording of the phone call Flynn had with Kislyak.
 
The only evidence of Flynn lying would be the 302, there are no recordings. Strzok rewote the 302, whether or not Flynn lied has been called into question, not to mention Flynn's defense hasn't even been given the recording of the phone call Flynn had with Kislyak.
No. The "evidence" that Flynn lied would have been the live, in-court testimony of Strzok and Pietnka - had this gone to trial.

The 302 is just a memo.
 
whether or not Flynn lied has been called into question

It has been called into question by pro-Trump propagandists in the pro-Trump media outlets and also by Flynn's crazy lawyers.

In Barr's motion to dismiss he focused on materiality. Barr didn't write that he was unsure that Flynn lied. Barr wrote that Flynn's lie wasn't material.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

From a national security perspective, Comey said he does have some concerns that incoming NSA Flynn is speaking frequently with Russian Ambassador Kislyak. Comey said that could be an issue as it relates to sharing sensitive information. President Obama asked if Comey was saying that the NSC should not pass sensitive information related to Russia to Flynn. Comey replied "potentially." He added that he has no indication thus far that Flynn has passed classified information to Kislyak, but he noted that the "level of communication is unusual."

Which otherwise translates as Comey having no evidence of his being either a criminal suspect or a national security threat.

Based on Comey's standard. This is the standard you've decided we should discuss when you wrote, "Comey was saying there was no evidence of criminal activity or national security threat from Flynn."

Comey isn't a foreign policy guy. His forte is law enforcement and national security and on both he is saying he has no evidence of any problems.


There was really no need to protect President Obama since he was not involved in the investigation.

Actually, the purpose of a a counter-intelligence investigation is to provide information for the presdient.
The president can start one and end one at his will.
We already know he was involved with the spurious Russia investigation.





What the memo makes clear is that President Obama -- rightfully, prudently, and justly -- did not want to interfere or involve himself in any sort of criminal or counterintelligence investigation involving the incoming administration.

The president knew there was no basis for either-- Comey told him that.
That's why Rice wrote her memo-- to blame Comey for the problem.

Well, there was, because they had never closed it. Also, it doesn't matter that at some particular point in time the FBI had exhausted all its leads with respect to their suspicions of Mr. Flynn's behavior because the FBI can open and close cases at will. With respect to opening cases so long as there is an articulable fact to justify opening an investigation, they can open an investigation.

There was no articuable fact. That is what the memo from Rice states.



It wouldn't matter anyway whether or not the investigation into Flynn, himself, was opened or closed. Crossfire Hurricane was still ongoing, and Flynn's behavior as it relates to his call with Kislyak was really strange. Recall that before the interview Flynn had lied to Pence about his call with Kislyak.

There is nothing particularly strange about telling the Russian ambassador that Russia should resist going apesh*t over the sanctions. In fact, that would seem to be quite reasonable.
Whatever Flynn told Pence is of no concern of the FB

You're looking for some sort of procedural off-ramp to rationalize the dismissal of Flynn's case, but it's not the procedure that drives an investigation and a prosecution, it's the facts.

The fact is that there were no facts to justify the investigation. That is what the Rice memo states.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

I know for a fact that McCabe did not say this, and you reference McCabe's transcript when writing "all of them" so I know your statement is incorrect.

So I will ask you again: "...who among the "Obama" DOJ and DNI have said there was no articulable factual basis to launch Crossfire Hurricane?"

Page 207-211 of the McCabe transcript.
They all answer the same way: Nobody saw evidence of Trump or his campaign conspiring with Russia.
 
It has been called into question by pro-Trump propagandists in the pro-Trump media outlets and also by Flynn's crazy lawyers.

In Barr's motion to dismiss he focused on materiality. Barr didn't write that he was unsure that Flynn lied. Barr wrote that Flynn's lie wasn't material.

Which is an element of the crime.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

And let's keep in mind, OpportunityCost, your accusation that the 302s were "tampered" with, meaning edited in some unauthorized or nefarious way to "frame" Flynn, is just that, an accusation.

We already know that Lisa Page had edited the 302'a. Whether it was done for "nefarious" reasons or not, it doesn't really matter.
The credibility of the only two witnesses are now shot.
That has has been the whole point of the 302's here. Had there been a prosecution, the defense would have ripped the FBI agents apart.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

We already know that Lisa Page had edited the 302'a. Whether it was done for "nefarious" reasons or not, it doesn't really matter.
The credibility of the only two witnesses are now shot.
That has has been the whole point of the 302's here. Had there been a prosecution, the defense would have ripped the FBI agents apart.

How?

I understand you've been taken in by the narrative - but how would you convince the jury of that narrative?

The jury isn't going to be made up of QAnon folks or Hannity fans.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

How?

I understand you've been taken in by the narrative - but how would you convince the jury of that narrative?

The jury isn't going to be made up of QAnon folks or Hannity fans.

We have multiple 302's, non-FBI agent editing them, misstatements as to who wrote what...
And we are supposed to accept their word as to what Flynn said? C'mon.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

We have multiple 302's, non-FBI agent editing them, misstatements as to who wrote what...
And we are supposed to accept their word as to what Flynn said? C'mon.
Are we supposed to take Flynn's word for it?

There were three people in that room, who know what Flynn said.

Who do you think the jury would be more likely to believe - two FBI agents saying the same thing, or the guy who already pled guilty twice, and has now changed his story?
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Are we supposed to take Flynn's word for it?

There were three people in that room, who know what Flynn said.

Who do you think the jury would be more likely to believe - two FBI agents saying the same thing, or the guy who already pled guilty twice, and has now changed his story?

Flynn doesn't have to say anything. I thought you went to law school? The accused doesn't have to testify.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Flynn doesn't have to say anything. I thought you went to law school? The accused doesn't have to testify.
Of course he doesn't. But if he doesn't testify, who will testify to his side of the story? No one else was in the room.

What will the jury think, if the defendant refuses to testify about what he said, and two FBI agents tell their story?

Which side will they believe?
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Flynn doesn't have to say anything. I thought you went to law school? The accused doesn't have to testify.
Did the FBI need, or have, 'probable cause'? Seems from Comey's televised statement that the incoming director was deliberately 'ambushed' and that there was thought to be no 'there there'.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Did the FBI need, or have, 'probable cause'? Seems from Comey's televised statement that the incoming director was deliberately 'ambushed' and that there was thought to be no 'there there'.
There is no legal requirement for "probable cause" to conduct a voluntary interview.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

There is no legal requirement for "probable cause" to conduct a voluntary interview.
Any idea why that original interview took place? If there was no 'probable cause' then there doesn't seem to be a sound reason why Comey sent them there.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Any idea why that original interview took place? If there was no 'probable cause' then there doesn't seem to be a sound reason why Comey sent them there.
Legally, it doesn't matter why.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Did the FBI need, or have, 'probable cause'? Seems from Comey's televised statement that the incoming director was deliberately 'ambushed' and that there was thought to be no 'there there'.

There was no there there. The Rice memo confirms this.
Basically what is being said here is the FBI can ask a person questions for no particular reason, and if the answer can be shown to be incorrect, hit that person with charges.
Its nonsense.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Any idea why that original interview took place? If there was no 'probable cause' then there doesn't seem to be a sound reason why Comey sent them there.

It does matter why because the law requires the statement to be material.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

There was no there there. The Rice memo confirms this.
Basically what is being said here is the FBI can ask a person questions for no particular reason, and if the answer can be shown to be incorrect, hit that person with charges.
Its nonsense.
Actually, there's a really easy way to avoid that.

Don't lie - or even better, don't agree to the meeting in the first place.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Legally, it doesn't matter why.
So Comey sent two FBI Agents to interview General Flynn for no known reason? Perhaps that's why Agent Priestap asked "What's our goal? Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired? If we get him to admit to breaking the Logan Act, give facts to DOJ & have them decide. Or, if he initially lies, then we present him [redacted] & he admits it, document for DOJ, & let them decide how to address it."

Seems they had no idea why they were interviewing Flynn, they felt he was telling the truth, and you don't seem to know either. Who would know then? Has all this order been worthwhile, even if it was 'legal'?
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Rowers have gone to the wall for Flynn in multiple ways they didn't consider at all for Roger Stone, Paul Manafort and a few others. This is despite Flynn being just another run of the mill Putin Trump guy.

While Flynn was NSA to Trump he himself is not such a grand figure in the Putin Trump scheme of things except as a gofer and a messenger boy. Trump can get anyone to do that, so why are the Rowers long term and fanatically -- relentlessly -- obsessed with Flynn

The unrelenting defense of Flynn who hasn't any defense -- and that is tireless and indefatigable -- is about much more than Flynn himself. It's about Bison Barr getting away with corrupting justice by nullifying the rule of law. It's about Trump shredding the Constitution in this instance as in many other instances to include personages.

It's about the Rowers using Flynn to demolish justice in the USA and to destroy U.S. counter intelligence capabilities.

This is what the little man Flynn is about to Putin Trump & Rowers. And this only.
 
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Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Actually, there's a really easy way to avoid that.

Don't lie - or even better, don't agree to the meeting in the first place.
Yes, i seems to be a mistake for anyone in the White to talk with the FBI unless there are witnesses and lawyers present. Apparently Flynn was foolish enough to trust them, thinking they were all on the same side. It's a lesson well learned now by all citizens, never to trust anyone with the FBI.
 
Re: U.S. judge puts on hold Justice Dept. move to dismiss Michael Flynn’s guilty plea to hear outs

Well, that's the thing. We're talking about the law, not your feelings.
In fact it's not clear which 'law' the FBI was investigating when they questioned Flynn. It seems they were acting on Comey's 'feelings'.
 
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