U.S. economy grew at a better pace than expected

[Shadowless]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Never realized Bill Clinton was a Consrrvative Right Winger.

And Co-ops still have to compete and make a profit.

In economic terms he was, he is the one who got rid of Glass Steigal. He is not a populist.

They definitely do make profits, people think cooperatives are just a bunch of hippies sitting around getting paid the same. This couldn't be further from the truth, check this out.

MONDRAGON Corporation

 

[Fenton]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

In economic terms he was, he is the one who got rid of Glass Steigal. He is not a populist.

They definitely do make profits, people think cooperatives are just a bunch of hippies sitting around getting paid the same. This couldn't be further from the truth, check this out.

MONDRAGON Corporation

Actually he was responsible for implementing the largest " Social/Economic Justice " initaive in American History.

His administration interfered in the private sector economy more than any other administration before or after.

Nothing " Right Wing Conservative " about forcing Banks to lower their lending standards. Nothing Right Wing Conservative about declaring decades old private sector standards used to vet lenders innately racist.

And Glass Steagall is a Red Herring. It's the go to for low information left wingers who blame the 2008 Financial Crisis on the Banks and not on the Government.

 

[Shadowless]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Actually he was responsible for implementing the largest " Social/Economic Justice " initaive in American History.

His administration interfered in the private sector economy more than any other administration before or after.

Nothing " Right Wing Conservative " about forcing Banks to lower their lending standards. Nothing Right Wing Conservative about declaring decades old private sector standards used to vet lenders innately racist.

And Glass Steagall is a Red Herring. It's the go to for low information left wingers who blame the 2008 Financial Crisis on the Banks and not on the Government.

Clinton was definitely conservative as he allowed the private banks to run rampant with zero accountability. Glass Steagall is NOT a red herring. Who the hell thinks it's a good idea to let banks gamble with MY savings????? Yes, using MY saved money to invest is gambling. Clinton was more interested in social/economic justice than FDR? I don't think so....

I think conservatives believe their own BS about Clinton being a far left liberal hahaha.

 

[mtm1963]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

2.1% is very slow growth. its continues the anemic growth of the economy since the recession ended.


not good at all.

 

[Kobie]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Actually he was responsible for implementing the largest " Social/Economic Justice " initaive in American History.

His administration interfered in the private sector economy more than any other administration before or after.

Nothing " Right Wing Conservative " about forcing Banks to lower their lending standards. Nothing Right Wing Conservative about declaring decades old private sector standards used to vet lenders innately racist.

And Glass Steagall is a Red Herring. It's the go to for low information left wingers who blame the 2008 Financial Crisis on the Banks and not on the Government.

The only reason you're claiming that Glass-Steagall is a "red herring" is because it demolishes your entire premise.

 

[Fenton]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Clinton was definitely conservative as he allowed the private banks to run rampant with zero accountability. Glass Steagall is NOT a red herring. Who the hell thinks it's a good idea to let banks gamble with MY savings????? Yes, using MY saved money to invest is gambling. Clinton was more interested in social/economic justice than FDR? I don't think so....

I think conservatives believe their own BS about Clinton being a far left liberal hahaha.

LMAO !!

His DOJ sued Banks on a regular basis, for " discrimination"

Janet Reno even bragged about targeting Financial institutions in 1998.

Then Clinton Co-opted the GSEs into Subprime market by giving then " affordable lending " quota's and appointing criminals like Franklin Raines ( NOT a right wing Conservative ) to run them into the ground.

Where are you getting your info ? Daily Kos ?

 

[danarhea]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Clinton was definitely conservative as he allowed the private banks to run rampant with zero accountability. Glass Steagall is NOT a red herring. Who the hell thinks it's a good idea to let banks gamble with MY savings????? Yes, using MY saved money to invest is gambling. Clinton was more interested in social/economic justice than FDR? I don't think so....

I think conservatives believe their own BS about Clinton being a far left liberal hahaha.

Actually, trashing Glass-Steagal was done by a Republican Congress, with Democratic Support, and was signed by a Democratic president. They are ALL responsible. But, for all you who only cheer the R or the D behind a politician's name, keep doing what you are doing. It's irrelevant. You just don't matter in the real world.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

People can choose where they work, they are not slaves as much as you would like them to be. Nobody will work for your poverty wages and crappy attitude. It's the end of this period in our history, people are waking up. If you can't provide people with a middle class wage, you better start another business on a different model.

Here's an example of the future. Cry now.

MONDRAGON Corporation

Thanks for posting this.

I've heard of a large long-term successful Spanish multinational co-op, but never knew it's name.

Interesting enough, the Mondragon Wikipedia entry leads to this book, and this claim:

"Capital and the Debt Trap is a research monograph by Claudia Sanchez Bajo[1] and Bruno Roelants. The first four chapters provide a general summary of the current international economic instability, noting that cooperatives have on average performed better than traditional for-profit corporations. The next four chapters describe four different cooperatives in four different countries. The final chapter provides a summary. Cooperatives seem on average to last longer and be more responsive to the needs of customers and the communities in which they operate, because their shared ownership and participative management generally makes labor more flexible while reducing the incentives of upper management to maximize short-term performance at the expense of the long term"

*bolding mine

Source: Wikipedia - 'Capital And the Debt Trap'

I support capitalism, but with strong regulation & control, along with reasonable social programs. To ensure worker's rights in a capitalist system, I'm a strong supporter of private-industry trade unions.

But I'm definitely going to do more research into the co-op model. While unions give workers rights & a voice they otherwise may not have, their real-life implementation tends to establish an adversarial environment with management. I'd much prefer to see a more mutual "all in this together" environment, and it seems co-ops attempt to aspire to this.

 

[Eric7216]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

LOL Congress has done nothing for he last 6 years and you have blamed the President for the economy more than once too. You can't blame him whene it is bad than say he had nothing to do with it when it is good....unless you are a Conservative of course.

Just for fun, I looked at the Congresses over the past 42 years. We had 6 recessions during that time. 10 of the Congresses were controlled by Democrats and 4 recessions started. So 40% chance of a recession.

6 of the Congresses were controlled by Republicans and we had 1 recession start then. So a 16% chance.

5 of the Congresses were split and we had 1 recession start. So a 20% chance.

 

[truthatallcost]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Would you say Germany is an economic powerhouse?

Germany will always be a powerhouse due to the innovation and quality of their goods. They are the one country that leftist ideas can't break, yet.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

2.1% is very slow growth. its continues the anemic growth of the economy since the recession ended.


not good at all.

Perhaps, but I'm not so sure it's "not good at all".

The economy is slowly & steadily chugging along with very low interest rates, low inflation, slowly falling unemployment, and moderately rising house prices. While there's no high peaks as in the Clinton 90's, there's no killer valleys as in the GW Bush 2008; just a steadily improving mild upward slope, year after year!

I'm actually fine with this economy.

There are several caveats, though:

- Wages are low, but even then they've recently edged up. But I'd argue that part of low wages is due to globalization effects with the exodus of manufacturing to China.

- There isn't a lot of cushion to absorb a downturn.

But otherwise, I'm O.K.with this steadily improving no-drama economy.

 

[Shadowless]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Thanks for posting this.

I've heard of a large long-term successful Spanish multinational co-op, but never knew it's name.

Interesting enough, the Mondragon Wikipedia entry leads to this book, and this claim:

"Capital and the Debt Trap is a research monograph by Claudia Sanchez Bajo[1] and Bruno Roelants. The first four chapters provide a general summary of the current international economic instability, noting that cooperatives have on average performed better than traditional for-profit corporations. The next four chapters describe four different cooperatives in four different countries. The final chapter provides a summary. Cooperatives seem on average to last longer and be more responsive to the needs of customers and the communities in which they operate, because their shared ownership and participative management generally makes labor more flexible while reducing the incentives of upper management to maximize short-term performance at the expense of the long term"

*bolding mine

Source: Wikipedia - 'Capital And the Debt Trap'

I support capitalism, but with strong regulation & control, along with reasonable social programs. To ensure worker's rights in a capitalist system, I'm a strong supporter of private-industry trade unions.

But I'm definitely going to do more research into the co-op model. While unions give workers rights & a voice they otherwise may not have, their real-life implementation tends to establish an adversarial environment with management. I'd much prefer to see a more mutual "all in this together" environment, and it seems co-ops attempt to aspire to this.

Thanks for the post, that's exactly why cooperatives are the better model. I have also learned that starting a cooperative is a better tax investment since it's lower than paying the corporate rate. When workers have a real stake in the place they work and spend most of their life, everything is better. This idea is technically considered socialism, but it's direct democracy. No government, no private board of directors, it's the people who make up the entities that decide what to produce, how to produce, where to produce, and what to do with the profits.

 

[Shadowless]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Germany will always be a powerhouse due to the innovation and quality of their goods. They are the one country that leftist ideas can't break, yet.

And what about Scandinavia? Netherlands? Switzerland? Australia? France? UK?

 

[Shadowless]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Actually, trashing Glass-Steagal was done by a Republican Congress, with Democratic Support, and was signed by a Democratic president. They are ALL responsible. But, for all you who only cheer the R or the D behind a politician's name, keep doing what you are doing. It's irrelevant. You just don't matter in the real world.

Very much agreed.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Germany will always be a powerhouse due to the innovation and quality of their goods. They are the one country that leftist ideas can't break, yet.

Right. They have strong unions that have resulted in Germans working less and being paid more than any other country. Their single payer health care is super too. Of course the are still not immune from Corporate greed as the VW scam has shown. We also could learn a lot from how the Germans use Govt. as a 3rd party in worker disputes too. When neither side gets all of what they ask it is usually the best agreement possible.

 

[truthatallcost]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

And what about Scandinavia? Netherlands? Switzerland? Australia? France? UK?

How about Greece? How about Portugal with their 2 major political parties being the Socialist Party and the Social Democratic Party? How about Spain with their Spanish Socialist Workers Party?

 

[Shadowless]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

How about Greece? How about Portugal with their 2 major political parties being the Socialist Party and the Social Democratic Party? How about Spain with their Spanish Socialist Workers Party?

You have stumbled upon a topic for an academic paper. Why do some forms of social democracy flourish, and others crash? I'd be very interested to find the answer. I am guessing a lot of it has to do with government corruption in southern europe is more rampant than in northern europe.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Germany will always be a powerhouse due to the innovation and quality of their goods. They are the one country that leftist ideas can't break, yet.

*bolded for relevance

--

Is strong unionism a 'leftist' idea?

Is universal national healthcare a 'leftist' idea?

Is free state-provided education, including universities, a 'leftist' idea?

Is a strong & relatively high minimum wage a 'leftist' idea?

--

Upon what premises are you supporting your conclusion?

 

[iguanaman]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Actually, trashing Glass-Steagal was done by a Republican Congress, with Democratic Support, and was signed by a Democratic president. They are ALL responsible. But, for all you who only cheer the R or the D behind a politician's name, keep doing what you are doing. It's irrelevant. You just don't matter in the real world.

It is usually a mistake when Democrats go along with Republican ideas. Clinton had little choice considering the GOP majorities he faced in Congress. Those bills were mostly written by Phil Gramm who turned out to be a shill for he Commercial bankers. We should not forget that Clinton only went along with banking deregulation after an extensive PR campaign by Allen Greenspan who claimed that it would bet better than sliced bread while swearing that Bankers were different now and would never behave like they did in the beginning of the century when they caused the Great Depression. What a fool he was....People don't change, greed will always be in control at the banks.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Thanks for the post, that's exactly why cooperatives are the better model. I have also learned that starting a cooperative is a better tax investment since it's lower than paying the corporate rate. When workers have a real stake in the place they work and spend most of their life, everything is better. This idea is technically considered socialism, but it's direct democracy. No government, no private board of directors, it's the people who make up the entities that decide what to produce, how to produce, where to produce, and what to do with the profits.

*bolded for relevance.

It does sound like an ideal model, at least in societal terms.

But I wonder in real world situations how it can compete in purely free-market capitalistic terms.

The current common greed driven corporate model has the management team cutting employees & their related employee expenses (benefits) at every opportunity possible.

Can a more 'employee benevolent' co-op compete against such cut-throat competition?

 

[Shadowless]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

*bolded for relevance.

It does sound like an ideal model, at least in societal terms.

But I wonder in real world situations how it can compete in purely free-market capitalistic terms.

The current common greed driven corporate model has the management team cutting employees & their related employee expenses (benefits) at every opportunity possible.

Can a more 'employee benevolent' co-op compete against such cut-throat competition?

I believe so. Mondragon is the 7th largest business in Spain, which is no short achievement. I think as more and more people join cooperatives, they will buy less and less from corporations who treat their workers like crap. It is a vicious cycle where I know people who do not want to shop at walmart, but have to for the prices. If they are given a decent wage, they'd shop elsewhere.

 

[Shadowless]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

It is usually a mistake when Democrats go along with Republican ideas. Clinton had little choice considering the GOP majorities he faced in Congress. Those bills were mostly written by Phil Gramm who turned out to be a shill for he Commercial bankers. We should not forget that Clinton only went along with banking deregulation after an extensive PR campaign by Allen Greenspan who claimed that it would bet better than sliced bread while swearing that Bankers were different now and would never behave like they did in the beginning of the century when they caused the Great Depression. What a fool he was....People don't change, greed will always be in control at the banks.

Why let Clinton off the hook? He knew what would happen, he's not an idiot.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

Apple's products are really crappy, and they outsource labor to China. Nice try. Top down capitalism is on its way out, and a cooperative market structure is starting to develop.

:roll:

When you cant beat em, make random **** :roll:

 

[Shadowless]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

:roll:

When you cant beat em, make random **** :roll:

I am just a Microsoft person. They outsource labor to China to avoid paying Americans living wages. A cooperative would never allow that. What's better for the workers is better for the company as a whole.

 

[faithful_servant]

Re: The U.S. economy got some good news Tuesday.

LOL Congress has done nothing for he last 6 years and you have blamed the President for the economy more than once too. You can't blame him whene it is bad than say he had nothing to do with it when it is good....unless you are a Conservative of course.

PLEASE enlighten me and show me where I've blamed the President. I've always been consistent in laying them blame/credit where it should be - at CONGRESS's feet.