U.S. Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage

[braindrain]

Actually, the reason behind the BDU pattern was that it matched the places we would most likely be fighting in, and most of the world.

About the only places they do not work well is desert and snow. But for those areas we had special uniforms just for there.

I think it makes sense to go back to a modern digital BDU pattern (digital has other advantages, harder to see in night vision, blends easier then the old school pattern). But desert and snow should remain for deployment in those areas, not for every day use. The Marine pattern is probably one of the best I have seen, and works in a wide variety of terrains. Enough green to blend in woodlands, just enough brown to do the same without overpowering the foliage.

We should all just go to a pattern like this, save Desert uniforms for deployments in desert terrain, or as it used to be, for issue to those who are going to be working in the desert (like 29 Palms or Fort Irwin). I see it as a waste to issue a different uniform to each branch.

I also see it as a huge waste to have every branch have their own uniform. It also makes things more complicated like when Air Force personnel deploy they wear ACUs and some Navy personnel doing the same. What is even the point of having camouflage uniforms that you are not ever going to deploy with.

In my opinion it is a perfect example of the pettiness of our military leadership as well as how much they care about wasting tax payer dollars. Yet when I deploy I have to find a way to get a receipt from the rickshaw driver in Bangladesh or I have to eat the cost of the ride to the embassy where I have to go to plan out mission. Give me a break.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I also see it as a huge waste to have every branch have their own uniform. It also makes things more complicated like when Air Force personnel deploy they wear ACUs and some Navy personnel doing the same. What is even the point of having camouflage uniforms that you are not ever going to deploy with.

In my opinion it is a perfect example of the pettiness of our military leadership as well as how much they care about wasting tax payer dollars. Yet when I deploy I have to find a way to get a receipt from the rickshaw driver in Bangladesh or I have to eat the cost of the ride to the embassy where I have to go to plan out mission. Give me a break.

Well, the Navy does it for obvious reasons, their uniform is probably the most retarded one there is. Whoever approved that should get smacked upside the head with a crowbar.

And it is not really all that wasteful in terms of money, they each cost the same, and about the same as the old BDUs did when adjusted for inflation. At least the Army got smart and finally did away with all the Velcro on the wrist and cargo pockets, that was really stupid (and wore out to damned fast). Now if we could get them to bring back the draw tabs on the sides to adjust the waist again instead of that useless belly string that nobody uses we will have it made.

But it is less efficient, with the supply system having to track all of the different uniforms. It is also pretty stupid, individuality like that is fine for Dress Uniforms which half of the time have a lot of tradition behind them. But pointless for a duty uniform.

 

[Jerry]

It irritated me when the USAF first came out with the Airmen Battle Uniform (ABU) that originally was going to be blue because it was supposed to be "in garrison" only. Before the ABU, the camo BDU, was not meant for home station only. Why would any military service want two different camo-type uniforms with one being for in garrison only? It seems like a waste of money to me.

But whatever, I am retired now, I should just focus on Allegro's new RV paint schemes instead.

Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage | Fox News

Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage | Military.com

I liked the molti-cam uniform...it just felt more Army'ish than our state-side grey camo.

 

[APACHERAT]

I believe that and many in the Corps concur that Marines should have their own distinctive utility field uniform to separate them from everyone else so our enemies from a distance know who they are dealing with, U.S. Marines and who's about to kill them.

Navy personnel who find themselves on shore in a ground combat theatre should follow tradition set during WW ll, they wear the Marine Corps utilities except instead of the Eagle, Globe and Anchor they wear the Navy insignia. That's what Navy Sea Bees, shore party teams, UDT always did.

U.S. Air Force personnel who find themselves attached to the Army or in a ground combat role should wear the Army's field uniform because the Air Force roots go back the the U.S. Army. (U.S. Army Air Corps, U.S. Army Air Forces)

Trivia:

The famous tiger stripe utilities/jungle fatigues of the Vietnam war era were not U.S. but RVN Marines utilities.

The camouflage utility jacket that you see Capt. Willard (Martin Sheen) wearing in the movie "Apocalypse Now" is a ROK Marine utility jacket worn by ROK Marines during the Vietnam War and also worn by U.S. Marines of 1st Anglico Sub Unit One naval gunfire platoon based at Hoi An in I Corps.

The first Americans to go into combat wearing camouflage field uniforms were U.S. Marines in 1942. While on amphibious troop ships a few days before the landings buckets of brown and green paint were passed around with a paint brush. The Marines created their own cammies by painting their sage green Marine Corps herringbone utilities with brown and green paint.

 

[braindrain]

I believe that and many in the Corps concur that Marines should have their own distinctive utility field uniform to separate them from everyone else so our enemies from a distance know who they are dealing with, U.S. Marines and who's about to kill them.

Navy personnel who find themselves on shore in a ground combat theatre should follow tradition set during WW ll, they wear the Marine Corps utilities except instead of the Eagle, Globe and Anchor they wear the Navy insignia. That's what Navy Sea Bees, shore party teams, UDT always did.

U.S. Air Force personnel who find themselves attached to the Army or in a ground combat role should wear the Army's field uniform because the Air Force roots go back the the U.S. Army. (U.S. Army Air Corps, U.S. Army Air Forces)

Trivia:

The famous tiger stripe utilities/jungle fatigues of the Vietnam war era were not U.S. but RVN Marines utilities.

The camouflage utility jacket that you see Capt. Willard (Martin Sheen) wearing in the movie "Apocalypse Now" is a ROK Marine utility jacket worn by ROK Marines during the Vietnam War and also worn by U.S. Marines of 1st Anglico Sub Unit One naval gunfire platoon based at Hoi An in I Corps.

The first Americans to go into combat wearing camouflage field uniforms were U.S. Marines in 1942. While on amphibious troop ships a few days before the landings buckets of brown and green paint were passed around with a paint brush. The Marines created their own cammies by painting their sage green Marine Corps herringbone utilities with brown and green paint.

Giving the enemy that you are fighting any more intelligence about anything including who they are fighting than you have to makes no sense what so ever. That in my opinion is as good an idea as giving one uniform to infantry units and another to support troops. The more you can keep the enemy in the dark the better. Putting the entire military in one uniform not only make tactical sense it also simplifies logistics and saves the taxpayers money.

 

[Jerry]

Giving the enemy that you are fighting any more intelligence about anything including who they are fighting than you have to makes no sense what so ever. That in my opinion is as good an idea as giving one uniform to infantry units and another to support troops. The more you can keep the enemy in the dark the better. Putting the entire military in one uniform not only make tactical sense it also simplifies logistics and saves the taxpayers money.

Why single out the infantry?

 

[APACHERAT]

Giving the enemy that you are fighting any more intelligence about anything including who they are fighting than you have to makes no sense what so ever. That in my opinion is as good an idea as giving one uniform to infantry units and another to support troops. The more you can keep the enemy in the dark the better. Putting the entire military in one uniform not only make tactical sense it also simplifies logistics and saves the taxpayers money.

Have you ever heard of the term "yellow legs" ?

In Vietnam McNamara made us all wear the same jungle fatigues. So the only way Charley could distinguish the U.S. Army soldier from the U.S. Marine was by who made the most noise while on patrol. If they were loud, they weren't Marines. :lol:

 

[braindrain]

Why single out the infantry?

No reason on particular. Should have said combat arms. Either way it's just as bad as an idea as having the different branches have different uniforms.

 

[braindrain]

Have you ever heard of the term "yellow legs" ?

In Vietnam McNamara made us all wear the same jungle fatigues. So the only way Charley could distinguish the U.S. Army soldier from the U.S. Marine was by who made the most noise while on patrol. If they were loud, they weren't Marines. :lol:

Making the enemy guess about who you are and what you are doing is always better than trying to broadcast it. It's just the way it is.

 

[Risky Thicket]

Depends on the rank. I am getting pinned for Chief in a week and a half and just bought 2 new uniforms, plus some stuff for another. There is also more besides that that we aren't really required to have. So I should have coveralls (I don't wear), NWUs, khakis, dress whites, dress blues, summer whites, dinner dress blues.

E-6 and below should have coveralls, NWUs (cammies), NSUs (black and tans), dress whites and dress blues.

Now there are some alternate uniforms for us. And we now have an official PT uniform.

Go on you, Chief. Congratulations!

 

[Jerry]

No reason on particular. Should have said combat arms. Either way it's just as bad as an idea as having the different branches have different uniforms.

There again, why single out "combat arms" as if they're the only ones in combat?

We have "support" companies performing combat engineer missions. You want the infantry guy in every mixed unit to stand out? Or when when a few equiptment operators (a "support" MOS) are attached to striker/rout-clearance/mechanised-infantry unit for a couple weeks you want the "support" joes singled out?

When the artillery guy who knows how to operate a front-loader is performing fob-tax, do you want him wearing a "support" camo for the day?

Im an equiptment operator and I've personaly don dismounted parole & security; which camo should I have been wearing? I'm not infantry MOSQ but I'm performing a "combat arms" job...so should I brought extra uniforms and change in the field depending on the job I'm doing that houre?

When a Ranger joins a "support" company to finish out his contract and retire, whoes camo does he wear?

Who's supposed to keep track of all these diferent uniforms?

I just don't get what you think the diferent uniforms are supposed to acomplish.

****
In Afghanistan all US forces wore the same uniform, the molticam.

 

[APACHERAT]

Making the enemy guess about who you are and what you are doing is always better than trying to broadcast it. It's just the way it is.

In some situations that's true.

In other situations you want the enemy to know who they are up against.

In Nam the 1st Cav use to leave death cards behind to let Charley know who just wiped out one of their NVA companies.

The 1st Cav was good at what they did. They were operating in I Corps when I was in-country. They were used more than just as a blocking force.

The "yellow legs" goes back to the Korean War. While the U.S. Army had gone to the 6" or 8" combat boot the Marines were still wearing boon dockers or 4" boots with leggings. With all of the scrubbing the leggings got, they looked yellow.

Yellow Legs:
Name given by the Communist North Korean Army to U.S. Marines, whom they feared and recognized by their discolored, yellow-looking leggings.
https://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/lingo/yellow-legs

Do not attack the First Marine Division. Leave the yellowlegs alone. Strike the American Army.
Orders given to Communist troops in the Korean War;
shortly afterward, the Marines were ordered
to not wear their khaki leggings.
United States Marine Corps Quotes

 

[braindrain]

There again, why single out "combat arms" as if they're the only ones in combat?

We have "support" companies performing combat engineer missions. You want the infantry guy in every mixed unit to stand out? Or when when a few equiptment operators (a "support" MOS) are attached to striker/rout-clearance/mechanised-infantry unit for a couple weeks you want the "support" joes singled out?

Who's supposed to keep track of all these diferent uniforms?

I just don't get what you think the diferent uniforms are supposed to acomplish.

I think you need to reread what I posted. I am saying singling any one/unit out is stupid. Just as stupid as each branch having different uniforms. Every member of the military should have the same uniform while deployed unless their is a specific reason not to. Like when I ran the Afghan commandos. They wear BDUs therefore we do to. Exact same reason my team does not want to be singled out.

 

[braindrain]

In some situations that's true.

In other situations you want the enemy to know who they are up against.

In Nam the 1st Cav use to leave death cards behind to let Charley know who just wiped out one of their NVA companies.

The 1st Cav was good at what they did. They were operating in I Corps when I was in-country. They were used more than just as a blocking force.

The "yellow legs" goes back to the Korean War. While the U.S. Army had gone to the 6" or 8" combat boot the Marines were still wearing boon dockers or 4" boots with leggings. With all of the scrubbing the leggings got, they looked yellow.

Yellow Legs:
Name given by the Communist North Korean Army to U.S. Marines, whom they feared and recognized by their discolored, yellow-looking leggings.
https://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/lingo/yellow-legs

Do not attack the First Marine Division. Leave the yellowlegs alone. Strike the American Army.
Orders given to Communist troops in the Korean War;
shortly afterward, the Marines were ordered
to not wear their khaki leggings.
United States Marine Corps Quotes

There is also a difference between letting the enemy know who killed their friends after the fact and letting the enemy pick who they want to fight.
Plus the calling card thing is something they were controlling and deciding when and where to give the enemy that info. If different branches have different uniforms that is not being in control.
That is not even getting into the costs and added logistics that come with it.

 

[APACHERAT]

There is also a difference between letting the enemy know who killed their friends after the fact and letting the enemy pick who they want to fight.

That's why Marines were ordered to stop wearing leggings.

The Commie Koreans and Chinese wouldn't engage the Marines in a fire fight.

If you were a Chinese general and after 10 of your divisions surrounded the 1st Mar. Div. at the "Frozen Chosen" and while the Marines fought their way to the sea and destroyed 8 of your 10 divisions, knocking them out of the war, what would you do, what would be your orders ? Probably >" Do not attack the First Marine Division. Leave the yellowlegs alone."<

Hey Braindrain, I'm thinking of a "Combat Boot" thread. What was the best combat boot that soldiers or Marines ever went into combat wearing. Or any Army.

 

[Jerry]

Hey Braindrain, I'm thinking of a "Combat Boot" thread. What was the best combat boot that soldiers or Marines ever went into combat wearing. Or any Army.

All I know is the current issued Army boot suck. Some love them, I hate them. My ankles pronate and so those boots roll my ancles regulerly. I simply will not wear them.

Fortunately the Guard doesn't care what exact boots you wear as long as they're compliant.

 

[APACHERAT]

All I know is the current issued Army boot sucks. Some love thrm, I hate them. My ankles pronate and so those boots roll my ancles regulerly. I simply will not wear them.

That's what I'm hearing and why I'm thinking of a "Combat Boot" thread.

The DOD always goes with the lowest bidder now days.

We have fielded soldiers and Marines with the best boots at times and to many times lately have sent them into combat with "Shoes for Less" quality boots.

There's no one website to use as a source.

When was the last time "Red Wing" or "Chippewa" had a government contract ?

I haven't even researched the German hobnailed boots that the German soldiers wore during WW ll. But they could end up towards the top.

Right off hand if I were or anyone else were to start the "Combat Boot" thread I would put the Vietnam War jungle boot towards the top along with the WW ll Marine Corps boon dockers. I've read that the best jump boot ever fielded was the Chippewa jump boot that they produced for U.S. Army Air Born during the 50's. Also heard some positive talk about Australien combat boots during WW ll.

 

[PirateMk1]

That's what I'm hearing and why I'm thinking of a "Combat Boot" thread.

The DOD always goes with the lowest bidder now days.

We have fielded soldiers and Marines with the best boots at times and to many times lately have sent them into combat with "Shoes for Less" quality boots.

There's no one website to use as a source.

When was the last time "Red Wing" or "Chippewa" had a government contract ?

I haven't even researched the German hobnailed boots that the German soldiers wore during WW ll. But they could end up towards the top.

Right off hand if I were or anyone else were to start the "Combat Boot" thread I would put the Vietnam War jungle boot towards the top along with the WW ll Marine Corps boon dockers. I've read that the best jump boot ever fielded was the Chippewa jump boot that they produced for U.S. Army Air Born during the 50's. Also heard some positive talk about Australien combat boots during WW ll.

I wear the old HH brand desert tanker boots. I guess they were bought out by Cochrean, so its a bit harder to find them. Tanker boots don't have the ankle support of the standard boot, but they have full leather uppers and are quick to don and duff. I had my local cobbler modify mine after I wore the soles out on three pairs. I had them resoled and reconditioned and then I had two extra ankle straps installed to increase support in the ankle area and a Kevlar toe installed. I think this next pair I am going to have a friction buckles installed and see how they work.

 

[APACHERAT]

All I know is the current issued Army boot suck. Some love them, I hate them. My ankles pronate and so those boots roll my ancles regulerly. I simply will not wear them.

Fortunately the Guard doesn't care what exact boots you wear as long as they're compliant.

Just looking at the price from your link, you know they are cheap.

The best boot I ever wore in the civilian world and as a military boot it would be at the top of the list is the Red Wing Logging boot. Red Wings are top of the line and you have to pay for quality.

My first pair of Red Wings I paid $125 and they lasted me five years before I had to have them resoled. They lasted another three years. My second pair cost me $175 and lasted me about eight years. Last week I went out to purchase my third pair of Red Wing logging boots. Over $300 !!!

Looking for a one source website on military combat boots. I came across this, Red Wing WW ll jump boots on E-Bay. Price:
US $5,839.20
Vintage World War II Era Red Wing "Sky Trooper" Jump Combat Leather Men&apos;s Boots | eBay

 

[APACHERAT]

I wear the old HH brand desert tanker boots. I guess they were bought out by Cochrean, so its a bit harder to find them. Tanker boots don't have the ankle support of the standard boot, but they have full leather uppers and are quick to don and duff. I had my local cobbler modify mine after I wore the soles out on three pairs. I had them resoled and reconditioned and then I had two extra ankle straps installed to increase support in the ankle area and a Kevlar toe installed. I think this next pair I am going to have a friction buckles installed and see how they work.

The tanker boots goe back to the George S, Patton.

I remember when I was a kid going into an Army-Navy surplus store during the 60's. Back then they were real army-navy surplus stores, no reproductions, every thing was gunuine military surplus. They had some steel toe Chippewa made WW ll tanker boots. Back during the 50's and early 60's they were popular with Hells Angels. As they became scarce they moved to the Chippewa engineer boot.

 

[PirateMk1]

Just looking at the price from your link, you know they are cheap.

The best boot I ever wore in the civilian world and as a military boot it would be at the top of the list is the Red Wing Logging boot. Red Wings are top of the line and you have to pay for quality.

My first pair of Red Wings I paid $125 and they lasted me five years before I had to have them resoled. They lasted another three years. My second pair cost me $175 and lasted me about eight years. Last week I went out to purchase my third pair of Red Wing logging boots. Over $300 !!!

Looking for a one source website on military combat boots. I came across this, Red Wing WW ll jump boots on E-Bay. Price:
US $5,839.20
Vintage World War II Era Red Wing "Sky Trooper" Jump Combat Leather Men's Boots | eBay

You can a pair of very nice custom made to your specs boots for $1500 with ALL the bells and whistles. $5839.20 seems excessive unless they were made in 1940, then they are antiques.

I checked the ebay site, those are used antiques. Not a general use boot.

 

[PirateMk1]

The tanker boots goe back to the George S, Patton.

I remember when I was a kid going into an Army-Navy surplus store during the 60's. Back then they were real army-navy surplus stores, no reproductions, every thing was gunuine military surplus. They had some steel toe Chippewa made WW ll tanker boots. Back during the 50's and early 60's they were popular with Hells Angels. As they became scarce they moved to the Chippewa engineer boot.

HH makes a good boot that is inexpensive for a well made boot. Wesco I think makes the best boots nowadays. Totally custom. There is a local cobbler that does a good job repairing my three pairs of HH tankers that does custom that I may try and see what kind of boots he can do.

When I was overseas in the sand box my uniform of choice was the standard kaki colored BDU (Rothco or True Spec) trousers and a very loose fitting kaki colored or black t-shirt and or a Hawaii shirt with the kaki colored tanker boots. In the winter I would use the BDU jacket and under armor winter gear. It worked out quite well.

 

[Oozlefinch]

All I know is the current issued Army boot suck. Some love them, I hate them. My ankles pronate and so those boots roll my ancles regulerly. I simply will not wear them.

Fortunately the Guard doesn't care what exact boots you wear as long as they're compliant.

Actually, having worn both boots, I have noticed no real difference in them when it comes to "ankle rolling". And my favorite boots during my time in the grunts were the old "jungle boots". I was one of many that cheered when in the late 1980's we were finally authorized to wear them.

 

[Jerry]

Actually, having worn both boots, I have noticed no real difference in them when it comes to "ankle rolling".

Maybe your ankles don't pronate. Mine do. The narrower/higher heel is a big problem for me.

 

[APACHERAT]

Maybe your ankles don't pronate. Mine do. The narrower/higher heel is a big problem for me.

I think the answer is boondockers and leggings. :lol: