Trump wanted out of NATO

[PeteEU]

Splitting up NATO has been Russian policy for decades and has not changed just because it went from the Soviet Union to Russia.

That Putin has managed to chip away at the alliance, only shows how brilliant a strategist he is, and how stupid we are.

Russia cant beat NATO both economically or militarily.. he knows that. However he has learned from American foreign policy to isolate nations and pick them off one by one. So that is what he is doing and it is kinda scary how effective he has become, because we in the west have played right into his hands by meddling in Russia's back yard in Ukraine and sphere of influence with Syria and elsewhere.

Now the reality is however, yes NATO might fall, but out of that Europe will form its own defensive pact. Now this pact will still be far stronger than Russia both economically and militarily.. with the exception of nukes of course. That is why Putin has been undermining the EU as much as possible. Russia can beat Poland, Ukraine and so on.. one on one.

The irony is if you look at the actual numbers of troops, tanks, planes and so on.. Russia is not that strong at all compared to NATO and even the EU nations.

 

[NeverTrump]

The NY Times is reporting that last year President Trump floated the idea of withdrawing the USA from the NATO pact.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html



This comes on the heels of two blockbuster reports over the weekend which are causing many to seriously evaluate the Trump/Russia relationship and to question where Trumps motivations - if not his loyalties - truly lie.

"Wanted"? Is there any indication that he has stopped wanting it? Come on NYT....:roll:

 

[OrphanSlug]

You may want to double check with some folks in Ukraine ...

You may want to double check how NATO is working out for the folks in Ukraine.

 

[Airyaman]

Someone pointed this out somewhere else, and I did some checking up on this. Prior to Manafort's arrival in March 2016, Trump didn't have a whole lot to say against NATO. He's been negative towards NATO ever since. Now, I think Bannon also had alot to do with fomenting the animosity, but this is one thing Trump has picked up just recently.

 

[jnug]

Amazing lack of understanding from Americans who think it makes sense to be out of NATO when America is the only country in NATO to have benefited from Article 5 of the Treaty Charter.
1) If you consider cyber warfare and cyber attack as an attack on the United States and if you further consider our woeful performance defending against cyber attack you might want to rethink the idea that NATO has no value to us
2) The combined Intelligence gathering capability of NATO as a group and the manner in which that entire effort revolves around US Intelligence at the hub simply cannot be duplicated and US Human Intelligence Gathering and Counter-Intelligence on its own frankly SUCKS! Virtually all of the European members are more experienced and better Human Intelligence assets and Counter-Intelligence assets and Russia is the world's best Human Intelligence Asset bar none. All we have ever had in that arena is SigIntel and other forms of Electronic Intelligence other than Cyber where we appear to have our thumbs stuck firmly up our butts.
3) It should be obvious that there are so many individual autocratic countries that are more capable of focusing on geopolitical goals, Russia, China even NK that the western alliance can ONLY now contest them via alliance. We can't take all of them on alone. NATO allows us to present a united front against Russian aggression in Europe and gives us the means to respond to Putin's obvious intentions with regard to rebuilding the parts of the old Soviet Union he values and taking Salt water ports and territory in the Middle East.

The idea that we can recede behind a Wall on our land borders and two oceans that no longer protect us as they once did, went out with Wilson.....was actually outdated BEFORE Wilson. Get back to me when we no longer have autocratic nations that will backfill every power vacuum we leave behind us until they are right up to our doorstep. HINT....you won't be able to get back to me as I will be long in my grave before that time ever comes.

The biggest problem we have at the moment is that the US President is Putin's lap dog. Spare me the "prove it" posts. If you can't see it by now, you are flat blind. At the very least the simple fact that Trump adopt's Russian geopolitical positions that can only come from his Russian "handler" should be enough. Things like:
- "the Russian Incursion into Afghanistan was justified"...huh! Where did that come from Donald within the context of any discussion we are having about anything current with regard to geopolitics. Are you trying to convince me you know a single thing about the Russian incursion into Afghanistan, that you READ it somewhere!!!!
- Trump at heel in Helsinki which nobody should EVER forget. Even Trump's take on Russian Election Interference expressed publicly many times including Helsinki is in a word DISGUSTING
- Trump's initial take on Poland and Russia which again could only have come from the lips of his Russian Handler

At the least until we get this asshat out of the WH we need our allies more than ever. That is another simple reality we better start accepting.

 

[Tangmo]

NATO and the presence of US missiles, weapon, and troops adjacent to Russia's botders has caused more World and Eurasian tensions and contributed to the restarting of the current Cold War. Now the profiteers/psychopaths of the MIC are in love with this scenario, the sane citizens should be aghast that it has been encouraged to occur. There is no wisdom behind NATO. Europe is not threatened by Russia, it is threatened by USA tariffs, sanctions and trade policies. Scrap NATO. Invest in Renewables and Local Infrastructure Development in USA and Europe.
/

The “ US “ only benefits from it by the production jobs of the military contractors. And those are paid for by congress.

American Conservatives ignore the Russia MIC.

 

[Tom Horn]

American Conservatives ignore the Russia MIC.

If the nations who are wishing to be free of the Russian yolk wish to remain so, they, and they alone should be willing to pony up that cost.

 

[Tangmo]

Personally, I have always thought that NATO should have gone the same way as SEATO and CENTO once the USSR broke apart and the Warsaw Pact Disbanded. Mission accomplished.

Then came Putin.

Russia has been a tyranny for hundreds of years and America's enemy specifically for one hundred years. Meanwhile Seato and Cento came and went. Same as bin Laden came and went. Same as the USSR came and went while bequeathing Putin to us via KGB. Putin thinks Nato should go the way of the USSR which puts Putin and you in the same place. You'll need to deal with that and that's just a fact of life.

 

[Tangmo]

once he starts ruling by dictatorial decree, you won’t know what’s happening because he will turn off the press save for the Boston Herald, the New York Post and the Washington Times. And maybe the WSJ. But maybe not.

That would shred the Constitution.

Putin couldn't do a better job of it himself.

Putin would indeed need a junior partner in the White House to realize that. Methinks you know the guy exactly that Putin would need. And that Putin has right there exactly. You know of course Trump's dayze are numbered.

 

[Tom Horn]

That would shred the Constitution.

Putin couldn't do a better job of it himself.

Putin would indeed need a junior partner in the White House to realize that. Methinks you know the guy exactly that Putin would need. And that Putin has right there exactly. You know of course Trump's dayze are numbered.

Why did you bring up Putin’s name? He is a communist. Do you adhere to his principals?

 

[Tangmo]

It is so sad how often stuff like this that we knew a year or three ago about Trump keeps hitting the so-called journalism headlines as news. It is not new, it is not news, it is anti- Trump propaganda programed in now in the project of molding minds.

This is an ongoing topic and issue.

It's Trump however who's stopped carrying on about it. That does not mean Trump has changed his alleged mind or attitude. It's that Trump is like the frog in the slowly boiling pot who's trying now to splash some water onto the fire. All that's happened however is that the fire keeps getting turned up a notch, then another notch....

 

[Tangmo]

Why did you bring up Putin’s name? He is a communist. Do you adhere to his principals?

Not so fast there slick.

Putin is the Conservative's conservative. He's the authoritarian's authoritarian. Until now you've been posting against Nato and for Trump as if Putin did not exist. Suddenly he's a communist. Which means you'll need to address Putin-Trump-Nato. And your anti-Nato position and posture thx.


(You're actually talking about principles btw.)

 

[jnug]

Why did you bring up Putin’s name? He is a communist. Do you adhere to his principals?

Putin is not a communist. Did you fall asleep at some point during the 80's and have not yet awoke?

 

[Tom Horn]

Not so fast there slick.

Putin is the Conservative's conservative. He's the authoritarian's authoritarian. Until now you've been posting against Nato and for Trump as if Putin did not exist. Suddenly he's a communist. Which means you'll need to address Putin-Trump-Nato. And your anti-Nato position and posture thx.


(You're actually talking about principles btw.)

No. He is GRU and he used to cut the tongues out of baptist missionaries mouths while they were still alive. You have been brainwashed into thinking any conservative has ever liked him.

 

[Tom Horn]

Putin is not a communist. Did you fall asleep at some point during the 80's and have not yet awoke?

No. But you did.

 

[jnug]

No. But you did.

Gee and I thought I knew who I was hanging with in the 80's. Must have missed you.

 

[Tangmo]

If the nations who are wishing to be free of the Russian yolk wish to remain so, they, and they alone should be willing to pony up that cost.

A single democracy alone is Putin's wet dream. One by one.

I speak also of the Putin-Trump-Fanboys who swallow Putin's stuff.

American Conservatives pretend to ignore the Russia MIC and they ignore Putin altogether as if Putin didn't have wet dreams about killing off Nato. You guys need to face up directly to Putin's wet dreams about it. Killing off Nato and EU is what Putin is about in Europe and in the USA. Trump carries Putin's water for him. You guys need to address these facts and realities.

 

[Rogue Valley]

You may want to double check how NATO is working out for the folks in Ukraine.

It's working out just fine. NATO has trained tens of thousands of Ukraine military conscripts. A unit of the Tennessee National Guard has been there since the beginning of November 2018. Ukraine will be fully NATO compliant by 2020.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Given Trump's encyclopedic ignorance, where did the idea of leaving NATO enter that tiny mind?

 

[Tom Horn]

A single democracy alone is Putin's wet dream. One by one.

I speak also of the Putin-Trump-Fanboys who swallow Putin's stuff.

American Conservatives pretend to ignore the Russia MIC and they ignore Putin altogether as if Putin didn't have wet dreams about killing off Nato. You guys need to face up directly to Putin's wet dreams about it. Killing off Nato and EU is what Putin is about in Europe and in the USA. Trump carries Putin's water for him. You guys need to address these facts and realities.

Single democracy alone. Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania need not a stinking NATO treaty. They need the means to kill 100 Russians for every Baltic person who dies. And with what President Trump has giving them so far, I think they can realistically expect to kill 30 of those 100. They’ve got a long way to go.

 

[Tangmo]

No. He is GRU and he used to cut the tongues out of baptist missionaries mouths while they were still alive. You have been brainwashed into thinking any conservative has ever liked him.

You need to address the common polluted ground you share with Putin against Nato.

Throw in EU cause you're both against that too.

Nato of course includes the United States.

 

[Tom Horn]

You need to address the common polluted ground you share with Putin against Nato.

Throw in EU cause you're both against that too.

Nato of course includes the United States.

i share zero ground with Putin. The entire or close to it, American 8th army was sent to Russia after its capture. I’ve never even vaguely heard of one returnee coming back.

 

[Tangmo]

Single democracy alone. Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania need not a stinking NATO treaty. They need the means to kill 100 Russians for every Baltic person who dies. And with what President Trump has giving them so far, I think they can realistically expect to kill 30 of those 100. They’ve got a long way to go.

They get that with the Nato treaty only.

Nato is the only force multiplier available to Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania.

Only an idiot or a Putin Fanboy would think or advocate that these countries stand alone against Russia. There is zero possibility they can stand up to Russia without Nato. Period. Get real.

 

[Tangmo]

i share zero ground with Putin. The entire or close to it, American 8th army was sent to Russia after its capture. I’ve never even vaguely heard of one returnee coming back.

Now you've slid back into being incoherent for which you are well known in these parts.

 

[Tom Horn]

They get that with the Nato treaty only.

Nato is the only force multiplier available to Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania.

Only and idiot or a Putin Fanboy would think or advocate that these countries stand alone against Russia. There is zero possibility they can stand up to Russia without Nato. Period. Get real.

Sorry. Putin could take the losses he would incure sitting down, but maybe not his army would be so callus. Or his population. He fears not NATO. For NATO is a farce. I can prove that very easily. The Dutch are part of it. And the French. Two weak assed people who surrender to the sound of a paper lunch bag being popped.