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Trump to Putin "If you don't make a deal we will give him (Zelensky) a lot......more than he ever got!"

Ukraine has no desire for Russian territory. They are attacking inside Russia to keep more Russian troops in Russia where they belong. Putin's madness in Ukraine has left his own people defenseless and Ukraine is pointing that out to them.
Nope this is a LIE. Zelensky wants a regime change inside Russia. He is been very open and explicit about this. Besides he is keen to protect the native "Ukrainians" inside Russia, this was always in news.
Zelensky is a tool of Western globalists/militarists, and they want to destroy Russia and balcanize it , dividing it into set of banana republics. This was all in this forum . No secret of that.
The war will never end if Russia "withdraws troops to 1991 border". Just NEVER. Stop pushing this baloney.
 
You deny that Putin has erected over 100 memorials to Stalin?

No, but so what?

You think that Ukraine needed to be forced into this horrible war with Russia and they are not really enemies?

No, but this isn't just a war between Ukraine and Russia; this is a war between world powers. Russia invaded Ukraine because he believes the US's global world order and US influence has advanced beyond where it should. If you want to put your blinders on and believe that this is strictly about Ukraine's sovereignty, that's fine.

As for the rest of the former Soviet Union, I think Putin probably does want some form of influence or control over it - I'm not contending otherwise. My point is that, as long as there is a strong US presence in the region, he can't. Obviously, with MAGA Jesus in power, that part of the equation is a wildcard, which makes it incumbent upon Europe to rearm and start quickly reorienting to develop their own military capabilities and independent foreign policy, which could include the US but should be prepared to go in a different direction if need be.

You are so far up Putin's ass you can't see daylight.

I'm pretty sure I said that Putin was a thug and that he invaded Ukraine illegally, but I'm not going to go quote myself to prove it. I agree that Putin's a thug, that he's invaded Ukraine illegally, and that he's generally just a bad guy who jails and kills his political opponents. I think I've been pretty clear about that.

What I'm saying is that you can't just see this in terms of Russia-Ukraine and you can't say the US is completely blameless. Europe, particularly Germany, is to blame, too, but for different reasons - putting themselves in position to be dominated by Russia's energy was about as stupid as it gets. Now they're reliant on US energy imports at a time when we're an unstable partner.

Putin's "red lines" are just him reiterating his belief that all former Soviet lands belong to Russia and he will do everything he can to get them back. The 1991 borders are written in stone and that is the wests "red line".

Yeah, not everyone is interested in the US's tandem of legalistic arguments on one hand and hegemonic hypocrisy on the other.
 
No, but so what?



No, but this isn't just a war between Ukraine and Russia; this is a war between world powers. Russia invaded Ukraine because he believes the US's global world order and US influence has advanced beyond where it should. If you want to put your blinders on and believe that this is strictly about Ukraine's sovereignty, that's fine.

As for the rest of the former Soviet Union, I think Putin probably does want some form of influence or control over it - I'm not contending otherwise. My point is that, as long as there is a strong US presence in the region, he can't. Obviously, with MAGA Jesus in power, that part of the equation is a wildcard, which makes it incumbent upon Europe to rearm and start quickly reorienting to develop their own military capabilities and independent foreign policy, which could include the US but should be prepared to go in a different direction if need be.



I'm pretty sure I said that Putin was a thug and that he invaded Ukraine illegally, but I'm not going to go quote myself to prove it. I agree that Putin's a thug, that he's invaded Ukraine illegally, and that he's generally just a bad guy who jails and kills his political opponents. I think I've been pretty clear about that.

What I'm saying is that you can't just see this in terms of Russia-Ukraine and you can't say the US is completely blameless. Europe, particularly Germany, is to blame, too, but for different reasons - putting themselves in position to be dominated by Russia's energy was about as stupid as it gets. Now they're reliant on US energy imports at a time when we're an unstable partner.



Yeah, not everyone is interested in the US's tandem of legalistic arguments on one hand and hegemonic hypocrisy on the other.
The "both sides" approach is sympathetic to Russia and you should know that. I do say the US is completely blameless to such an extent that we were too quick to believe that Russia would inevitably claim Ukraine as their own. We were late to the party and that is inexcusable. Ukraine has wanted to be independent for a century and the US like you were clueless about Ukraines determination to be free of Russian domination. Merkel stated that she was wrong to buy energy from Putin but also that she felt it was important to try. Dependence on energy money is also a form of dominance and as Putin has found out it is hard to survive without it. It is hard to fault Germany for trying to develop a mutual dependence and assuming that Putin would act rationally and not like a genocidal madman bent on european dominance and emulating his hero another genocidal maniac Stalin. A million Russians will be maimed or killed in Ukraine and for what? Ukraine will never be Russia's puppy dog again no matter how many Russians die trying.
 
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Fortunately, former president Reagan was smart enough to think in smarter terms when he negotiated a nuke treaty with Russia. Previous presidents signed treaties with Russia that had no teeth and it was expected that Russia would cheat on them and they did. However, they had a treaty on paper to flash in front of the press. Reagan took the approach of "trust but verify". Too bad Obama did not take that approach in the nuke deal with Iran. Back to the Ukraine war. Zelensky was absolutely right in that Putin is untrustworthy. However, that is why you negotiate. Zelensky would not have been forced into accepting terms that allowed Putin the violate the agreement without consequences. European troops for a DMZ and American security guarantees will be part of any deal between Ukraine and Russia. Zelensky went to the White House with no intention of negotiating anything. He just wanted the arms shipments to continue, and was prepared to whine about not getting enough just as he did with Biden. A couple of days after the spat, he was stunned that Trump did not just continue the shipments no matter what like Biden did. he pissed off Biden as well. Now Zelensky is open to negotiations and a cease fire under the right conditions. Now Trump is working on Putin to gain the same. If the war just goes on and one, I am on Ukraine's side, however despite heavy Russian losses, Russia will probably win a war of attrition. Putin does not care how many of his troops die.
You should know that Obama's nuclear agreement with Iran included verification by U.N. inspectors which Iran was complying with until Trump bailed on the agreement. It is likely that Iran already has a nuclear warhead since they have been free to develop one for many years thanks to Trump.

Here's how we got to this point. Since October, Iran has:
Shipped 25,000 pounds of enriched uranium out of the country
Dismantled and removed two-thirds of its centrifuges
Removed the calandria from its heavy water reactor and filled it with concrete
Provided unprecedented access to its nuclear facilities and supply chain

Because Iran has completed these steps, the U.S. and international community can begin the next phase under the JCPOA, which means the U.S. will begin lifting its nuclear-related sanctions on Iran. However, a number of U.S. sanctions authorities and designations will continue to remain in place.

iranDeal_graphics_2_IAEAChart.jpg

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/node/328996
 
ou should know that Obama's nuclear agreement with Iran included verification by U.N.
You mean the same UN that was complicit with the Hamas 10/7/23 attack on Israel through UNWRA? America typically does not sign nuke agreements when American inspectors are not allowed access to what's being inspected.
 
Trump wants to end the war, not just continue to fund a virtual stalemate. Zelensky ultimately came around. Now Trump is working on Putin. Hopefully the threat of more sanctions and more aid to Ukraine will work.
Which Putin has resisted from Trump and will not accept.

Trump couldn't wait to get elected again so he could swoop in to save Putin (from himself) in Ukraine. By doing so Trump would establish himself as dominant in their albeit perverse relationship. Trump saving Putin makes Trump the new Action Man while Putin is the beneficiary of Trump's favor and largess as it were. Trump saving Putin would turn the table on who is dominant and who is the decider of things. Trump becomes Putin's superior.

Putin hates this which makes peace by Trump unacceptable to him. Which is why Trump has given up trying to get Putin to make a peace. Indeed, the war will go on and Trump will send further implements of war to Zelensky. Trump now is determined to make Putin cry 'uncle'.
 
You mean the same UN that was complicit with the Hamas 10/7/23 attack on Israel through UNWRA? America typically does not sign nuke agreements when American inspectors are not allowed access to what's being inspected.
LOL U.N IAEA nuclear inspectors are the standard of the world.
 
Which Putin has resisted from Trump and will not accept.

Trump couldn't wait to get elected again so he could swoop in to save Putin (from himself) in Ukraine. By doing so Trump would establish himself as dominant in their albeit perverse relationship. Trump saving Putin makes Trump the new Action Man while Putin is the beneficiary of Trump's favor and largess as it were. Trump saving Putin would turn the table on who is dominant and who is the decider of things. Trump becomes Putin's superior.

Putin hates this which makes peace by Trump unacceptable to him. Which is why Trump has given up trying to get Putin to make a peace. Indeed, the war will go on and Trump will send further implements of war to Zelensky. Trump now is determined to make Putin cry 'uncle'.
Incoherent babble.
 
The "both sides" approach is sympathetic to Russia and you should know that. I do say the US is completely blameless

Which is a naive and wrong way to look at global politics. You can believe that if you want, but that's not how the world works, nor has it ever been. Everything Putin has done in this conflict has been motivated by a desire to break the US's influence in Europe (and the world, really, but Europe for now). The US has not sought to end the war in Ukraine as expeditiously as possible. We've given aid and some weapons, but not the kind that would actually end the war though. We've wanted Russia to burn out its war-making capacity through sanctions on Russia and half-assed military and financial support for Ukraine. This is a proxy war and Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb.
 
I do think there's a part of his brain that believes he's much closer to a world in which the US plays a significantly lesser role on the global political stage

With his little bitch in the Oval Office, it's easy for him to think that.
 
Nope this is a LIE. Zelensky wants a regime change inside Russia.

If there was the want of a regime change so badly in Russia, the Euros would've sent a kill team into the Gremlin 2 years ago.
 
With his little bitch in the Oval Office, it's easy for him to think that.

We were probably already on our way there, but yes, Trump certainly upends the global order on a much faster timetable and with greater uncertainty as to the consequences.
 
Which is a naive and wrong way to look at global politics. You can believe that if you want, but that's not how the world works, nor has it ever been. Everything Putin has done in this conflict has been motivated by a desire to break the US's influence in Europe (and the world, really, but Europe for now). The US has not sought to end the war in Ukraine as expeditiously as possible. We've given aid and some weapons, but not the kind that would actually end the war though. We've wanted Russia to burn out its war-making capacity through sanctions on Russia and half-assed military and financial support for Ukraine. This is a proxy war and Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb.
Tough shit.
 
Indeed, tough shit for everyone involved, especially Ukraine.
Right now it's especially Russia. They've been stalled for weeks and their commanders just keep shoving people into the chipper.

Which is a plus.
 
Right now it's especially Russia. They've been stalled for weeks and their commanders just keep shoving people into the chipper.

Which is a plus.

Russia has 4 times Ukraine's population. They have probably more natural resources than any country on the face of the earth and then some. They don't have a free press or free and fair elections. Even if Putin's regime collapses, what replaces it? What if it's actually worse?

Maybe the solution is to cut losses and accept the way things are now in 2025.
 
Russia has 4 times Ukraine's population.
For the moment.
They have probably more natural resources than any country on the face of the earth and then some.
Too bad the oligarchs just steal it instead of putting it to use, right?
They don't have a free press or free and fair elections. Even if Putin's regime collapses, what replaces it? What if it's actually worse?
With any luck at all, a 10 year civil war.
Maybe the solution is to cut losses and accept the way things are now in 2025.
No. The Ukrainians don't seem to like that craven bullshit, either.
 
Which is a naive and wrong way to look at global politics. You can believe that if you want, but that's not how the world works, nor has it ever been. Everything Putin has done in this conflict has been motivated by a desire to break the US's influence in Europe (and the world, really, but Europe for now). The US has not sought to end the war in Ukraine as expeditiously as possible. We've given aid and some weapons, but not the kind that would actually end the war though. We've wanted Russia to burn out its war-making capacity through sanctions on Russia and half-assed military and financial support for Ukraine. This is a proxy war and Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb.
The US believes that maintaining the 1991 borders agreed to by all parties is what is important. The fact that you do not agree with that makes you a warmonger I'm afraid. The Biden White House was foolish to think that Putin would act rationally when confronted with an unwinnable war that he started. They were far too concerned with maintaining the status quo in Russia and therefore giving Putin chance after chance to end this war without a total defeat of the Russian military. By the time they realized this mistake it was too late. Putin felt that if he could just hold out until Trump was in office again he could trick Trump into letting him win. That also appears to have failed at least for now. This is a war where the west is saying that Russia cannot take smaller countries by force because that is not acceptable but for Ukraine is it is a valiant effort to finally gain independence after nearly a century of trying. They are not interested in any "proxy wars" they just want to be a free country that is part of europe.
 
Russia has 4 times Ukraine's population. They have probably more natural resources than any country on the face of the earth and then some. They don't have a free press or free and fair elections. Even if Putin's regime collapses, what replaces it? What if it's actually worse?

Maybe the solution is to cut losses and accept the way things are now in 2025.
Russia has collapsed before and for similar reasons. The solution is to support freedom and stop worrying about what Russia may do. We do not have control over Russia and never will. What we do have control of is our principles and they have not failed us yet. Larger nations taking over smaller ones is a recipe for endless wars. That we know from history. We also know that appeasing dictators never works. To them it is a show of weakness and invites further conflicts.
 
The US believes that maintaining the 1991 borders agreed to by all parties is what is important. The fact that you do not agree with that makes you a warmonger I'm afraid.

Just the opposite. I think the US should be more mindful about the wars it starts, either directly or indirectly. Your rhetoric is clearly more bellicose than mine on this topic, so I'd say that between the two of us, if there's a warmonger to be found, it can be found by finding the nearest mirror.

The Biden White House was foolish to think that Putin would act rationally when confronted with an unwinnable war that he started. They were far too concerned with maintaining the status quo in Russia and therefore giving Putin chance after chance to end this war without a total defeat of the Russian military.

The Biden White House miscalculated - on a lot. It's probably fair to say that the security agreement that we announced in September 2021 was the final straw that provoked Putin to invade in February of '22. Biden thought he could close out his political career by finishing off unfinished Cold War business (as he apparently saw it) and hanging another L on Russia. Turns out, that war, and its resultant price shocks and inflation, likely gave Putin the chance to hang the L on Biden instead. Not to mention that by weaponizing the global financial system we have expedited the move away from the dollar. Other countries saw this and realized that the US has weapons other than B-2s to impose its will on non-compliant nations.

By the time they realized this mistake it was too late. Putin felt that if he could just hold out until Trump was in office again he could trick Trump into letting him win. That also appears to have failed at least for now. This is a war where the west is saying that Russia cannot take smaller countries by force because that is not acceptable but for Ukraine is it is a valiant effort to finally gain independence after nearly a century of trying. They are not interested in any "proxy wars" they just want to be a free country that is part of europe.

Ukraine is not interested in proxy wars - totally agree. Ukraine isn't the problem. They are a sovereign nation trying to resist invasion by a centuries-old menace.
 
Indeed, tough shit for everyone involved, especially Ukraine.
Stop insulting the brave Ukrainians who are fighting for their freedom and dying for it every day. They have no choice in this either. The alternative is the genocide of Ukraine. Putin has made that quite clear. As bad as this war is it is far better than surrendering to Putin. The Ukrainians know this all too well from their history.
 
Stop insulting the brave Ukrainians who are fighting for their freedom and dying for it every day. They have no choice in this either. The alternative is the genocide of Ukraine. Putin has made that quite clear. As bad as this war is it is far better than surrendering to Putin. The Ukrainians know this all too well from their history.

Oh FFS, if he wanted genocide of Ukraine, he'd have done it by now. He wants to install a Russo-friendly government, which is what he had in 2013, and there was no talk of Ukrainian genocide then. You're just being ridiculous now. Put away your yellow and blue pom poms and start dealing with reality.
 
Ukraine is not interested in proxy wars - totally agree. Ukraine isn't the problem. They are a sovereign nation trying to resist invasion by a centuries-old menace.
And we agree on that fully and I will just ignore the rest of your post since it is in direct contrast to that last statement. Ukraine is fighting for their survival after being invaded by a nation 4 times their size. A nation that is also receiving military help from several other allies but somehow we are the guilty ones for helping Ukraine.
 
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