Trump orders stoppage of huge wind energy project.

[longview]

You make a valid point.
Would you include the oil and gas industry in that also?
The US government provides substantial subsidies to the fossil fuel industry, estimated to be around $760 billion annually, including direct subsidies, tax breaks, and unpriced externalities like environmental damage. Direct subsidies alone range from $10 to $52 billion per year. About 80% of these direct subsidies go to oil and gas, with the rest supporting coal.

That is more an abomination of what the definition of a subsidy is, than actual subsidy is.
Oil and gas companies are allowed to deduct from their gross profits, the cost of operating their business.
Some of those deductions are unique to oil companies, like drilling a dry well.
Wind power on the other hand gets a Power Purchase Agreements, where they are guaranteed a minimum
price for the electricity they produce, AND get to write off their cost of operating their business from their gross profits.
Can you give an example of a subsidy paid to an oil company?

 

[KingLeo]

That is more an abomination of what the definition of a subsidy is, than actual subsidy is.
Oil and gas companies are allowed to deduct from their gross profits, the cost of operating their business.
Some of those deductions are unique to oil companies, like drilling a dry well.
Wind power on the other hand gets a Power Purchase Agreements, where they are guaranteed a minimum
price for the electricity they produce, AND get to write off their cost of operating their business from their gross profits.
Can you give an example of a subsidy paid to an oil company?

I just did above.
Calling a government subsidy by another name does not change the fact that it is, in essence, a government subsidy.

 

[Volunteer]

we should not be subsidizing Energy technologies that cannot survive without subsidizes.

Oil and gas will survive without current government supports but prices at the pump will be much higher and extremely difficult for producers and investors to forecast. That's why a slow, deliberate, transition away from fossil fuels will help mitigate price shock. Markets, not governments, should determine energy pricing.

 

[longview]

Oil and gas will survive without current government supports but prices at the pump will be much higher and extremely difficult for producers and investors to forecast. That's why a slow, deliberate, transition away from fossil fuels will help mitigate price shock. Markets, not governments, should determine energy pricing.

So what oil company subsidy would you cut?

 

[KingLeo]

Oil and gas will survive without current government supports but prices at the pump will be much higher and extremely difficult for producers and investors to forecast. That's why a slow, deliberate, transition away from fossil fuels will help mitigate price shock. Markets, not governments, should determine energy pricing.

In a perfect world you are right.
However in the oil and gas world production in many of the worlds largest oil and gas producing countries is owned and controlled by the foreign governments, not private companies.
Of the largest oil producing countries in the world (US, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Iraq, and Mexico) only the US and Canada do not own and control their oil production.
And that government control of production, not the markets, does effect world prices.

 

[Germinator]

Wrong. They are both hidden taxes and they are both passed on to consumers, workers, and investors.

Sadly many never learned the simple Reagan wisdom (about tariff wars)



...nor the expression "In order to make money you have to be willing to spend money" which encapsulates the fundamental economic principle of investment. It suggests that generating sustainable wealth requires an initial outlay of capital or resources. IOW you can't expect to reap financial rewards without first putting something in. Problem is Trump like many TDS (Total Devotion Syndrome) 'prosperity gospel' devotees,... only look at the short term situation (AND not the big picture).

FYI the prosperity gospel, at its core, promotes a short-term mentality by focusing heavily on immediate, tangible blessings in this life as a direct result of faith and obedience to God. IOW the emphasis is on material wealth in the short term only!!!



The Trump administration can continue releasing a 'yuge' number of tariff trade deal(s) bull$hit announcements for believers, but the reality (that I perceive) is,... the internal dysfunction and unpredictable nature of Trump's administration will derail business deals (which is going to make global conflict more likely).

Trade negotiations isn't rocket science but does require 'years' of uncontentious interactions. Just sayin the stable genius organizational kaos AND short attention span leads to a constant back-and-forth, reversals, and contentious interactions leaving a sour taste in many countries' mouths, so successful navigating of various trade deals, will be difficult (at best).

 

[longview]

Sadly many never learned the simple Reagan wisdom (about tariff wars)



...nor the expression "In order to make money you have to be willing to spend money" which encapsulates the fundamental economic principle of investment. It suggests that generating sustainable wealth requires an initial outlay of capital or resources. IOW you can't expect to reap financial rewards without first putting something in. Problem is Trump like many TDS (Total Devotion Syndrome) 'prosperity gospel' devotees,... only look at the short term situation (AND not the big picture).

FYI the prosperity gospel, at its core, promotes a short-term mentality by focusing heavily on immediate, tangible blessings in this life as a direct result of faith and obedience to God. IOW the emphasis is on material wealth in the short term only!!!

View attachment 67565766

The Trump administration can continue releasing a 'yuge' number of tariff trade deal(s) bull$hit announcements for believers, but the reality (that I perceive) is,... the internal dysfunction and unpredictable nature of Trump's administration will derail business deals (which is going to make global conflict more likely).

Trade negotiations isn't rocket science but does require 'years' of uncontentious interactions. Just sayin the stable genius organizational kaos AND short attention span leads to a constant back-and-forth, reversals, and contentious interactions leaving a sour taste in many countries' mouths, so successful navigating of various trade deals, will be difficult (at best).

Except I do not think Trump's goal is income from Tariffs but rather better trade agreements.
In a perfect world, the markets in other countries would be as open to US made goods and services as our markets are open to theirs.

 

[Steve Case]

Wind power in not modern, Wind power electricity is almost as old as hydroelectricity.
It is also unclear if wind power can actually produce electricity for less than alternatives.
Wind power projects seem to last just a little longer than the subsidizes.
I think in the end the maintenance cost will be too high, with the current design.
Both wind and Solar need grid scale seasonal energy storage to be viable, but batteries cannot do that job.

When George Orwell wrote Animal Farm, he needed something to illustrate the boondoggles
corrupt governments create in order make it look they are making progress. He chose the windmill.

 

[Germinator]

Except I do not think Trump's goal is income from Tariffs but rather better trade agreements.
In a perfect world, the markets in other countries would be as open to US made goods and services as our markets are open to theirs.

Oops, I forgot: Trump, the consummate tariff negotiator and financial stable genius (beloved by all).

 

[Grand Mal]

Don't forget 19th century coal. Aren't we now in the 21st century?

Some are. In the 21st century.
Some believe the oligarchs who say that as long as there's a drop of oil or a lump of coal unsold any efforts to research alternatives are wasted time and money. In fact, the oligarchs make it both political and personal and say that any research into alternatives is a loony leftist buy-in to bogus climate change cult-speak. Until they've milked the last buck out of their franchises.
Actually, wind, solar, tidal, etc. are what's going to bring electricity to people for a price they can afford.

 

[Grand Mal]

When George Orwell wrote Animal Farm, he needed something to illustrate the boondoggles
corrupt governments create in order make it look they are making progress. He chose the windmill.

When Cervantes wanted to illustrate a frustrating exercise in futility he chose attacking windmills.
That observation is exactly as relevant as yours.

 

[longview]

Oops, I forgot: Trump, the consummate tariff negotiator and financial stable genius (beloved by all).

View attachment 67565788

We just have to wait and see how effective it is!

 

[Lord of Planar]

Another sign of the US shying away from modern technologies in preference for antiquated ones.

Wind is a lie on costs and a scam. It end up cosyibg so much more than advertised. I

I would yell the developer can continue, but subsidies other than normal tax breaks cease. If they and the power companies want to continue without the extra sibsidies, then fine by me.

 

[CaughtInThe]

I bet a ton of MAGAs were working on that construction project.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Nearly all the consumer electricity in Scotland is wind generated and it's cheaper than in New York State. And that's with decades worth of North Sea oil unpumped.
Trumps America doubles down on hundred year old low tech energy while the rest of the world researches and innovates their way into the future.

They have different wind patterns there. There is also the factor that the sound generated and moving through the ovean is harming mamals like whales that are sensitive to sound.

Why do you lefites want to kill raptors and whales?

 

[Lord of Planar]

Don't forget 19th century coal. Aren't we now in the 21st century?

We now have clean ways of utilizing coal, but only one of this new design was built before the USA stopped building any more coal plants.

 

[Lord of Planar]

LOL
Like Donnie gives a rats ass about the environment.

More so thevthe left these days.

 

[Lord of Planar]

You make a valid point.
Would you include the oil and gas industry in that also?
The US government provides substantial subsidies to the fossil fuel industry, estimated to be around $760 billion annually, including direct subsidies, tax breaks, and unpriced externalities like environmental damage. Direct subsidies alone range from $10 to $52 billion per year. About 80% of these direct subsidies go to oil and gas, with the rest supporting coal.

Before the left misused the word "subsidy" so much, the definition never included normal business tax breaks. The only thing before that counted as a subsidy was dicount land leases. Per unit of power, the gas and oil industry gets an insignifulicant amount of susidies compared to wind and solar.

Make it so they get no more subsidies than oil and gas does. Dont give them the extra special green subsidies and see what their wholesale costs are then.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I just did above.
Calling a government subsidy by another name does not change the fact that it is, in essence, a government subsidy.

There are different types of subsidies. The type and value matters a great deal.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Oil and gas will survive without current government supports but prices at the pump will be much higher and extremely difficult for producers and investors to forecast. That's why a slow, deliberate, transition away from fossil fuels will help mitigate price shock. Markets, not governments, should determine energy pricing.

What do you think the subsidy value of oil and gas is? It is really very small per unit of power vs. any green energy.

 

[multivita-man]

Another sign of the US shying away from modern technologies in preference for antiquated ones.

It's also dumb considering that renewables contribute to overall energy capacity.

 

[Volunteer]

So what oil company subsidy would you cut?

I would begin billing oil companies, and their transporters, for costs of security provided by U.S, military on the ground and on the oceans.
I would temporarily raise, substantially, the royalties that oil drillers pay for use of federal lands and require clean-up of all sites. Then I would phase out oil drilling on federal lands altogether.
I would close the Department of Energy's Advanced Fossil Loan Office if Musk hasn't yet fired everyone there.
I would no longer fund grants and loans for the oil sector in the U.S. Export-Import Bank if we haven't already.
If the U.S. tax code still allows deductions and tax credits for U.S. Code § 263, U.S. Code § 613, and U.S. Code § 901, and U.S. Code § 901 covering intangible drilling costs deduction, percentage depletion, domestic manufacturing deduction, and foreign tax credits, I would scrutinize these with intent to discontinue them.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I would begin billing oil companies, and their transporters, for costs of security provided by U.S, military on the ground and on the oceans.
I would temporarily raise, substantially, the royalties that oil drillers pay for use of federal lands and require clean-up of all sites. Then I would phase out oil drilling on federal lands altogether.
I would close the Department of Energy's Advanced Fossil Loan Office if Musk hasn't yet fired everyone there.
I would no longer fund grants and loans for the oil sector in the U.S. Export-Import Bank if we haven't already.
If the U.S. tax code still allows deductions and tax credits for U.S. Code § 263, U.S. Code § 613, and U.S. Code § 901, and U.S. Code § 901 covering intangible drilling costs deduction, percentage depletion, domestic manufacturing deduction, and foreign tax credits, I would scrutinize these with intent to discontinue them.

All that does is pass along the costs to consumers.

 

[Volunteer]

All that does is pass along the costs to consumers.

Exactly. Market pricing. They'll buy less of it. And taxpayers will not have to foot the bill.
Same for renewables, market pricing without big gubment subsidies.

 

[longview]

I would begin billing oil companies, and their transporters, for costs of security provided by U.S, military on the ground and on the oceans.
I would temporarily raise, substantially, the royalties that oil drillers pay for use of federal lands and require clean-up of all sites. Then I would phase out oil drilling on federal lands altogether.
I would close the Department of Energy's Advanced Fossil Loan Office if Musk hasn't yet fired everyone there.
I would no longer fund grants and loans for the oil sector in the U.S. Export-Import Bank if we haven't already.
If the U.S. tax code still allows deductions and tax credits for U.S. Code § 263, U.S. Code § 613, and U.S. Code § 901, and U.S. Code § 901 covering intangible drilling costs deduction, percentage depletion, domestic manufacturing deduction, and foreign tax credits, I would scrutinize these with intent to discontinue them.

So what you charge all the other us businesses that do business overseas for security as well?