Trump Launches War On Iran

[Ikari]

That is incorrect. There may have been some Ayatollahs who opposed the coup like that other poster says, but the Ayatollahs who supported the coup were the main part of the coup.

Some did support it, allegedly, but they weren't the impetus behind it. That was the US and UK.

US quietly publishes once-expunged papers on 1953 Iran coup

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — Once expunged from its official history, documents outlining the U.S.

apnews.com

The 1,007-page report , comprised of letters and diplomatic cables, shows U.S. officials discussing a coup up to a year before it took place. While America worried about Soviet influence in Iran, the British remained focused on resolving a dispute over the nationalization of the country’s oil refinery at Abadan, at the time one of the world’s largest. Many also feared further instability following the 1951 assassination of Premier Ali Razmara.
...
Out of that fear grew TPAJAX, the CIA codename for the coup plot. Papers show the CIA at one point “stockpiled enough arms and demolition material to support a 10,000-man guerrilla organization for six months,” and paid out $5.3 million for bribes and other costs, which would be equivalent to $48 million today. One CIA document casually refers to the fact that “several leading members of these (Iranian) security services are paid agents of this organization.”

The CIA also described hoping to use “powerfully influential clergy” within Shiite Iran to back the coup, something that would be anathema by the 1979 Islamic Revolution. It offers no definitive proof of that, though several documents show American officials in contact with Ayatollah Abol-Ghasem Kashani, an anti-British leader in the Iranian parliament who turned against Mosaddegh.

There was no coup without us intervening. We (and the UK) did the heavy lifting in getting it established and off the ground. And while we were in contact with on Ayatollah, there's no proof that this was something widely backed and promoted by the Ayatollahs in general.

 

[Chomsky]

Any rational person would realize that these bombings have further entrenched hatred for America and Israel. The idea that this would lead to some pro-American Iran is insane.

We've got to understand the Iranian populace's perspective on what occurred:

Iran was unilaterally & unprovokingly attacked by their arch-enemy. Then the U.S., an entity they see as all-powerfully meddling, joined-in.

Of course they're furious. Why wouldn't they be?

 

[Napoleon]

I did read it, but it didn't make much sense.

Then the subject is beyond you.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

We do actually, since there's no confirmation the sites have been destroyed, nor are we sure the centrifuges have been destroyed either. I mean, Donnie Boy's out there rage posting "WE WON!!" but he's the same idiot who said magnets don't work underwater, and didn't know what the Congo is so I'm not sure he's the best source of information about this.

Not too likely that the centrifuges survived. Fordow may not be permanently out of commission, but it is probably down for the near term.

Except North Korea is constantly threatening its neighbors with test missile launches and mean rhetoric, so it sounds like they should be a target as well. Or is the premise here that only the threat to Israel matters? North Korea has not given up their nuclear weapons.

North Korea's illegal nuclear program was enough for the entire world to slap them with harsh sanctions.

Iran was only bombed because Israel started bombing them. And North Korea is far enough away that Israel probably will not bomb them.

If Israel was inclined to bomb North Korea, they would have bombed North Korea before they developed nukes.

So where are they? Heck, something even close to it must be laying around somewhere.

Israel bombed Iran's illegal nuclear program before they could build a working weapon.

 

[Crunchtime]

It literally is. Yes, Paul relates the event but its not God saying that Ishmael is out of Gods favor. In fact it says he will become a great nation in reference to Islam

So you’re saying that faith in Jesus Christ isnt the only way to heaven? FYI, I’m just looking for the reason you’re so deceived. You’re just dead wrong in your “interpretation” of scripture. Islam is cursed. It’s only obvious.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

You just joined a religious war.

No. we hitched a ride on a religious war's coat tails. Trump, to his credit [he doesn't always get it wrong] made it quite clear in the beginning it was one and done if we punched a big hole in their ability to make nukes. Then, as he does, he got sideways with conflicting comments on regime change, but seems to have done his TACO number on that.

However, with Trump it is hard to tell. He changes his mind depending on who he spoke to last.

 

[Crunchtime]

More like an opportunist picking the right moment to jump on the bandwagon.

Huh?

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Something, anything.

I'll get to your posts eventually. Right now people are posting faster than I can reply.

 

[maxparrish]

Why not have planned this properly so that wouldn't be a requirement since going back in later means Iran has the opportunity to better hide and defend its uranium better? More and more this sounds like some folks didn't really think this through.

The decision-making process and open consideration of US entry into the conflict by Trump is yet another lesson on how indecision and reluctance may have botched the US air strike. Whereas a coordinated joint attack on the underground facilities upon Israel's first day of strikes would likely have been more effective, and denied Iran the opportunity of subsquently lining up 16 cargo Trucks to transfer unknown equipment and material from Fordow - successfully.

Whether or not the US should have intervened is a separate question, but the failure to know one's mind prior to the Israeli attack demonstrates not only Trump's personal weakness but also a habit of American leaders that also worked against success in Ukraine.

 

[Fletch]

Do you know when Iran become a theocracy again (after the Shah) and turned its back on democracy...became an fundamentalist Muslim society? During the Iran/Iraq war. They used the war to concentrate power, impose stricter laws on people, take away personal liberties, close the universities, etc etc etc. This has all been clearly documented, it's not a new strategy.

Ok, so?

 

[Chomsky]

Was absolutely public and I have every right to jump into it.

Of course, and I welcome you.

But at least understand the context, so your input is relevant.

Your comment had suppositions that were erroneous to my post.

No nation building has proven a failure every single time we've tried it.

The populace is a whole doesn't matter it's the leadership.

Well I'm not sure that matters much they let these people be in charge

Again, the topic being discussed was the populace.

That may be debatable I think Iran is stoking tensions with us threatening our president which is an act of war. And so far we just destroyed their weapons factories.

They're bad actors, no doubt.

But whether we needed to send in our military after Israel's excellent success, is highly debatable. Especially, given we don't know if our attack accomplished its purpose.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

No. That was never a possibility with North Korea because, unlike Iran, they have a mutual defense agreement with China.

China doesn't scare me. We'll be going to war with them as soon as they invade Taiwan.

It was Israel that started bombing Iran. And Israel doesn't see North Korea as enough of a threat to start bombing them. If they did, they would have started bombing them before they had developed a working weapon.

 

[CLAX1911]

Of course, and I welcome you.

But at least understand the context, so your input is relevant.

Your comment had suppositions that were erroneous to my post.

Opinion noted

Again, the topic being discussed was the populace.

Why?

They're bad actors, no doubt.

But whether we needed to send in our military after Israel's excellent success, is highly debatable. Especially, given we don't know if our attack accomplished its purpose.

When did Israel take out their nuclear enrichment facilities?

 

[Lursa]

Ok, so?

So the idea that a new war with Israel (or the US) will encourage division in Iran, such as rebelling against the fundamentalist regime, is likely isnt necessarily accurate. It could, once again, help the fundies consolidate power. (Dots connected, I hope.)

 

[Taylor]

Nice, make it about me and not the topic being discussed.

"The topic" didn't post a bunch of BS - you did.

 

[Ikari]

China doesn't scare me. We'll be going to war with them as soon as they invade Taiwan.

It was Israel that started bombing Iran. And Israel doesn't see North Korea as enough of a threat to start bombing them. If they did, they would have started bombing them before they had developed a working weapon.

I mean, an actually shooting war with China ain't gonna be some walk in the park. It wouldn't be like Iran or Iraq.

 

[Fletch]

So the idea that a new war with Israel (or the US) will encourage division in Iran, such as rebelling against the fundamentalist regime, is likely isnt necessarily accurate. It could, once again, help the fundies consolidate power. (Dots connected, I hope.)

Ok. So actual liberation from Tyranny may not yet be in the cards for the Iranian people. Thats doesnt prevent me from hoping they will take the opportunity to change the regime on their own.

 

[bubbabgone]

Deeper than that. Has to do with who bundles, and how. It's the reason all but a few Democrats will make only mealy noises about Trump bombing Iran. Schumer, on the other hand, won't be seen in public until he sheds his erection.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

They were not no matter how many times you repeat this.

That is incorrect. Some of the Ayatollahs were the main part of the coup.

It's not a question of "if", it's historical fact.

I'm taking your word for it. But since I do not directly know for myself that it is true, I have to word my sentences to allow for the possibility that it isn't.

Well that's he thing about colonialism, at some point the natives don't want you around or taking their things.

It wasn't their things. That oil belonged to the UK.

Colonialism is just a nonsense word that pirates concocted to try to justify piracy.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

I mean, an actually shooting war with China ain't gonna be some walk in the park. It wouldn't be like Iran or Iraq.

Likely to escalate to total nuclear war. But we can win a nuclear war.

Keep in mind that there will be a period of conventional bombardment that will greatly degrade China's nuclear arsenal. By the time we hit them with a nuclear first strike, the only thing they will have left to retaliate with are their mobile ICBMs.

 

[Ikari]

Likely to escalate to total nuclear war. But we can win a nuclear war.

Keep in mind that there will be a period of conventional bombardment that will greatly degrade China's nuclear arsenal. By the time we hit them with a nuclear first strike, the only thing they will have left to retaliate with are their mobile ICBMs.

I would certainly hope that even in a strong escalation with China, that it wouldn't come to nuclear war. America still holds the edge, but it wouldn't be an easy go of it. It would be best to avoid armed conflict with China.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

I would certainly hope that even in a strong escalation with China, that it wouldn't come to nuclear war. America still holds the edge, but it wouldn't be an easy go of it. It would be best to avoid armed conflict with China.

China won't give us that option. They will invade Taiwan.

If we can repel the invasion without using nuclear weapons, we will do so.

 

[Lursa]

Ok. So actual liberation from Tyranny may not yet be in the cards for the Iranian people. Thats doesnt prevent me from hoping they will take the opportunity to change the regime on their own.

Fair enough. I hope all the best for the people of Iran.

 

[Ikari]

China won't give us that option. They will invade Taiwan.

If we can repel the invasion without using nuclear weapons, we will do so.

They might invade, that's certainly a concern. It's not guaranteed at this point, though. And then it's a decision on Trump as to whether or not he wants to back Taiwan.

 

[HumblePi]

I'm only posting this in order to give a personal perspective of our 'enemy'. There are so many human lives on the line in any war, and we try to trust that our leaders will do the 'morally right thing' and put aside political special interests, and put people first. Unfortunately, that's not usually the primary concern. I sometimes think that people are thought of as no more valuable than common 'chattel', just pieces on a chessboard that can be manipulated and moved at will.

This is Jerusalem, a city with a population of 978,000. Ancient stone structures, narrow cobbled streets, and of course, the Jaffa Gate. Jerusalem also has a modern tourist district.


Tehran is a modern city of nearly 9.7 million people. For comparison, New York City has a population of 8.2 million, Tehran is the economic and political center of Iran. There are wealthy areas, but there is also significant income inequality and poverty. The city has a stark contrast between affluent neighborhoods in the north and impoverished areas in the south


Bridges, roads, tunnels, skyscrapers, designer boutiques, and 9 million residents.