Trump and the cons want to bring back Confederate statues and the name of military bases

[Master Debator]

Y'all, hows about we keep the ones honoring the Generals? Like Robert E Lee. Sure, it could praise Slavery, Jimmy Crow, ect. But it could also represent the sheer tactical genius that Lee and Jackson had, and other Generals.

Do you often look at competitions and celebrate the losers for their tactical genius?

 

[Cyrus Alimonte]

Do you often look at competitions and celebrate the losers for their tactical genius?

I celebrate all tactical genius. Tha fact Lee managed to fight for so long with dwindling resource and men, and then chose to surrender to spare the lives of his men when others would have kept fighting is... certainly something.

 

[Master Debator]

I celebrate all tactical genius. Tha fact Lee managed to fight for so long with dwindling resource and men, and then chose to surrender to spare the lives of his men when others would have kept fighting is... certainly something.

Yeah, its a what a loser has to do. Surrender.

 

[j brown's body]

I celebrate all tactical genius. Tha fact Lee managed to fight for so long with dwindling resource and men, and then chose to surrender to spare the lives of his men when others would have kept fighting is... certainly something.

I think of all the people he sent to die in a war he knew they could not win.

 

[Master Debator]

I think of all the people he sent to die in a war he knew they could not win.

Maybe that's the genius? I can get behind the culling of white supremacist slavers.

 

[Cyrus Alimonte]

Yeah, its a what a loser has to do. Surrender.

Not necessarily. He could have had his men all die. Could have pulled an Imperial Japan

 

[Master Debator]

Not necessarily. He could have had his men all die.

That would of just made him an even bigger loser, it wouldnt change the fact that he was indeed a loser. Literally.

 

[Cyrus Alimonte]

That would of just made him an even bigger loser, it wouldnt change the fact that he was indeed a loser. Literally.

Sure, he lost the war. But in total, the CSA lost half the men the USA did, and with much less resources and glorious bangers(cannons)

 

[Master Debator]

Sure, he lost the war. But in total, the CSA lost half the men the USA did, and with much less resources and glorious bangers(cannons)

I don't care how many yards they gave up in penalties, the scoreboard is there to tell you who the loser ultimately is. That was Lee. Objectively and literally.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

I celebrate all tactical genius. Tha fact Lee managed to fight for so long with dwindling resource and men, and then chose to surrender to spare the lives of his men when others would have kept fighting is... certainly something.

It’s one thing to acknowledge an enemy’s tactical genius.

It’s another thing to celebrate an enemy’s tactical genius.

 

[Cyrus Alimonte]

It’s one thing to acknowledge an enemy’s tactical genius.

It’s another thing to celebrate an enemy’s tactical genius.

As I said, I celebrate all tactical genius. Both allied and enemy. For example, I think the Blitzkrieg was remarkably effective in WWII. And yet again, so was Doolittle Bombing(while physical damage was minimal, phycological damage was high

 

[Ikari]

I'm on the fence about things like this.

Obviously I think Confederates were solid straight-up pieces of shit.

However, it IS a part of history. Not just Southern history but American history as a whole. I may see statues differently than others do, though. I don't always see statues as things that automatically laud their likenesses. I just see them as physical snapshots in time. And I don't like getting uncomfortably close to physical censorship of this kind.

It is part of our history, and we can and should remember/teach it. All of it. I don't think we should whitewash the confederate traitors as some form of hero fighting for their way of life. It should well be remembered that they were fighting to preserve the institution of slavery. Have statues of Confederate losers, along side statues of the slaves they fought to keep slaves.

 

[Logophile]

The artists that created many if not most confederate statues, were some of the most renowned sculptors in the western world. Many of these monuments are profoundly beautiful. Only a tasteless imbecile would find monuments of that artistic caliber offensive. The Southerners were regarded as US citizens - every last one of them - at war's end. And I would think the Northerners of THAT time who embraced Southerners as citizens would know better as to how to view American history than a bunch of racist malcontents today. People that illegally tore down public statues are racists. They have tried and continue to try to desperately resurrect racism as a power play, so as to elevate themselves with some phony virtual signaling. What they really want is to find an excuse for the discontentment in their lives. Better to blame somebody else.

Henry VIII was a profoundly villainous king, but nobody in England would dream of ripping down his astounding portrait by Hans Holbein. I suppose if somebody did, the excuse would be that Henry was a sexist which would be an understatement. The original was destroyed in a fire in the late 1600s, but a reproduction is still on public display as an enormous testament to both English history AND artistry.

Women in this nation were often treated like chattel, so should mobs of women and feminist sympathizers rip down every monument of every last male public figure that lived prior to 1920?? I resent having to indulge a bunch of unsophisticated brats. We are adults with a history that was both good and not so good. Regardless, we cherish works of art and will not be ruled by mobs of malcontents. Trump is absolutely right to find proper settings for some of the greatest bronze sculptures of that time

 

[Ikari]

As I said, I celebrate all tactical genius. Both allied and enemy. For example, I think the Blitzkrieg was remarkably effective in WWII. And yet again, so was Doolittle Bombing(while physical damage was minimal, phycological damage was high

Blitzkrieg was highly effective. Should we have statues of Hitler then?

We can look at, study, understand, and even appreciate the tactics of enemies. It's for the best to study these things to learn and grow our own tactics. But we don't need to celebrate the individuals or the cause.

 

[Cyrus Alimonte]

Blitzkrieg was highly effective. Should we have statues of Hitler then?

We can look at, study, understand, and even appreciate the tactics of enemies. It's for the best to study these things to learn and grow our own tactics. But we don't need to celebrate the individuals or the cause.

Heinz Guderian is credited with Blitzkrieg. Hitler just led Nazi Germany. I wouldn't put up statues of Hitler for Guderian's idea, nor statues of Jefferson Davis for Lees tactical skills
EDIT: Although Davis was more skilled in Military command than Hitler

 

[eohrnberger]

As I said, I celebrate all tactical genius. Both allied and enemy.

Apparently you are someone who is a student of history and historical facts, rather than someone who views history through the lens of today's value system and renders an emotionally driven judgement.

For example, I think the Blitzkrieg was remarkably effective in WWII. And yet again, so was Doolittle Bombing(while physical damage was minimal, phycological damage was high

Agreed.

 

[Ikari]

Heinz Guderian is credited with Blitzkrieg. Hitler just led Nazi Germany. I wouldn't put up statues of Hitler for Guderian's idea, nor statues of Jefferson Davis for Lees tactical skills
EDIT: Although Davis was more skilled in Military command than Hitler

So statues of Guderian then?

 

[Diving Mullah]

They say it is part of Southern history. I say, so is slavery part of that same Southern history, since the states that seceded from the union fought a war to keep it and now they are attempting to "whitewash" or eliminate from not only history but in every way possible including museums. Trump and his cronies say slavery is too much a negative and should be placed where the truth about it can be seen. I guess next they will say that the Native Americans gladly gave their land to the white immigrants, really?

That’s a great idea…


While we’re busy naming some of the homegrown, anti-American ‘generals,’ why not honor a few international ones too?


My suggestions: Himmler, Heydrich, Göring, Kaltenbrunner (honestly, that even sounds like a perfect name for a military base). And for the modern era, let’s throw in Ayman al-Zawahiri, Mohammed Atef, and maybe Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM)—now that sounds like an official U.S. military installation.


Since this administration is so hell-bent on honoring anti-Constitution Americans, let’s go all out and make it global!


That’s how we make America GREAT again.



Diving mullah

 

[Master Debator]

As I said, I celebrate all tactical genius. Both allied and enemy. For example, I think the Blitzkrieg was remarkably effective in WWII. And yet again, so was Doolittle Bombing(while physical damage was minimal, phycological damage was high

You wanting to celebrate white supremacist slavers and nazis is one thing, wanting to force your fellow citizens to join you in that celebration as a matter of public policy, including your fellow Black and Jewish citizens is another thing entirely.

 

[j brown's body]

The artists that created many if not most confederate statues, were some of the most renowned sculptors in the western world. Many of these monuments are profoundly beautiful. Only a tasteless imbecile would find monuments of that artistic caliber offensive. The Southerners were regarded as US citizens - every last one of them - at war's end. And I would think the Northerners of THAT time who embraced Southerners as citizens would know better as to how to view American history than a bunch of racist malcontents today. People that illegally tore down public statues are racists. They have tried and continue to try to desperately resurrect racism as a power play, so as to elevate themselves with some phony virtual signaling. What they really want is to find an excuse for the discontentment in their lives. Better to blame somebody else.

Henry VIII was a profoundly villainous king, but nobody in England would dream of ripping down his astounding portrait by Hans Holbein. I suppose if somebody did, the excuse would be that Henry was a sexist which would be an understatement. The original was destroyed in a fire in the late 1600s, but a reproduction is still on public display as an enormous testament to both English history AND artistry.

Women in this nation were often treated like chattel, so should mobs of women and feminist sympathizers rip down every monument of every last male public figure that lived prior to 1920?? I resent having to indulge a bunch of unsophisticated brats. We are adults with a history that was both good and not so good. Regardless, we cherish works of art and will not be ruled by mobs of malcontents. Trump is absolutely right to find proper settings for some of the greatest bronze sculptures of that time

I've always argued that the statues are a beautiful tribute to white supremacy, and they intended as such. But we've passed that stage, or so I thought.

The one in Arlington Cemetery beautifully gives Black folks their due. But is it accurate? Or does that not matter?

 

[RaleBulgarian]

The artists that created many if not most confederate statues, were some of the most renowned sculptors in the western world. Many of these monuments are profoundly beautiful. Only a tasteless imbecile would find monuments of that artistic caliber offensive. The Southerners were regarded as US citizens - every last one of them - at war's end. And I would think the Northerners of THAT time who embraced Southerners as citizens would know better as to how to view American history than a bunch of racist malcontents today. People that illegally tore down public statues are racists. They have tried and continue to try to desperately resurrect racism as a power play, so as to elevate themselves with some phony virtual signaling. What they really want is to find an excuse for the discontentment in their lives. Better to blame somebody else.

Henry VIII was a profoundly villainous king, but nobody in England would dream of ripping down his astounding portrait by Hans Holbein. I suppose if somebody did, the excuse would be that Henry was a sexist which would be an understatement. The original was destroyed in a fire in the late 1600s, but a reproduction is still on public display as an enormous testament to both English history AND artistry.

Women in this nation were often treated like chattel, so should mobs of women and feminist sympathizers rip down every monument of every last male public figure that lived prior to 1920?? I resent having to indulge a bunch of unsophisticated brats. We are adults with a history that was both good and not so good. Regardless, we cherish works of art and will not be ruled by mobs of malcontents. Trump is absolutely right to find proper settings for some of the greatest bronze sculptures of that time

You are neither sophisticated nor the arbiter of determining what is right or wrong about removing monuments to Confederate traitors.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

As I said, I celebrate all tactical genius. Both allied and enemy. For example, I think the Blitzkrieg was remarkably effective in WWII. And yet again, so was Doolittle Bombing(while physical damage was minimal, phycological damage was high

Again, there is a distinct difference in acknowledging an enemy’s tactical successes, and celebrating them.

 

[Logophile]

I've always argued that the statues are a beautiful tribute to white supremacy, and they intended as such. But we've passed that stage, or so I thought.

The one in Arlington Cemetery beautifully gives Black folks their due. But is it accurate? Or does that not matter?

The entire exercise in trying to destroy American art and erase historical figures because of what or who is represented is patently disgusting. Custer went to battle against Native Americans. America's indigenous people are viewed through a sympathetic lens today, but it was quite different than how the US government viewed them in the 1800s. Today, they are free to come and go but the reservations are a testament to what our forefathers sadly and wrongfully did. Now, should we assume that we can erase their transgressions or absolve ourselves of a guilt that we don't even own, by eradicating every image of Custer that exists in the US today??


The sculpture above is by Edward Potter. It's called "Sighting the Enemy." It's a phenomenal piece. If you never knew who Custer was, it would be irrelevant. That monument would still rivet you

 

[Master Debator]

The entire exercise in trying to destroy American art and erase historical figures because of what or who is represented is patently disgusting. Custer went to battle against Native Americans. America's indigenous people are viewed through a sympathetic lens today, but it was quite different than how the US government viewed them in the 1800s. Today, they are free to come and go but the reservations are a testament to what our forefathers sadly and wrongfully did. Now, should we assume that we can erase their transgressions or absolve ourselves of a guilt that we don't even own, by eradicating every image of Custer that exists in the US today??
View attachment 67586134

The sculpture above is by Edward Potter. It's called "Sighting the Enemy." It's a phenomenal piece. If you never knew who Custer was, it would be irrelevant. That monument would still rivet you

It's funny that its the taking down of statues to slavers and mass murderers that disgusts you, not the putting them up. At least you're willing to admit that which I can appreciate. I like to know who you people are in case there ever comes an opportunity to save you from a raging fire or something so I dont.

 

[Safiel]

What is really galling about all this?

Neo-Confederates and Lost Causers whining about "erasing history" when statues are relocated.

While their patron saint in the White House is LITERALLY erasing any history he does not like.