I can read the article and see the current situation very clearly for myself, that doesn't mean the school is making a good choice OR in the right. Personally, I think it's in their best interests to step off and let this one slide. That's all I'm saying.
I think, in this case, the whole thing has been OBE (overcome by events). For future reference, if you are going to allow a female student to be treated as male, dress as male, be called male, then don't do stupid crap like this.
Here's the problem, the way I see it. The school failed to set definitive rules. If they had refused to let the student participate as a male in any other activities, I would probably stand by their decision to exclude the individual from running for Homecoming King.
However, they allowed the student to be male in every other aspect of school life.
I believe that was my point, I made over 6 pages back :2razz:
Here's the problem, the way I see it. The school failed to set definitive rules. If they had refused to let the student participate as a male in any other activities, I would probably stand by their decision to exclude the individual from running for Homecoming King.
However, they allowed the student to be male in every other aspect of school life.
Ok, to continue with what I was saying. The causes of transexualism are not completely known. This is not an issue that has been studied, extensively. However, recently, there have been studies using MRI's and exploring the limbic system that have demonstrated some potential causality. Both genetics and biology have been considered as links.
Much of the information regarding the studies done on the causes of transsexualism are highly technical in nature. I will attempt to explain them in layman's terms"
A study done in 2000 examined the part of the brain that identifies gender identity... the central subdivision of the bed-nucleus of the stria terminalis or BSTc for short. They examined the somatostatin (SOM), a hormone, neurons. What they found was this. Males have 3-4 times the amount of SOM neurons than females do. This is regardless of sexual orientation; homosexual males were similar to males just as homosexual females were similar to females. However, when examining the SOM neurons of transsexuals, they found that FTM (females who claimed to be male) SOM neurons were in the MALE range while MTF (males who claimed to be females) SOM neurons were in the FEMALE range. They examined people who had hormone treatment, who had not, who had sex reassignment surgery, and who had not. Didn't matter. The SOM neuron levels remained the same. Also irrelevant was when the individual indicated their transsexualism. This gives indication that whatever the cause, it occurs while the individual develops in the womb.
Link to the actual study and links to other information used:
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus -- Kruijver et al. 85 (5): 2034 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism
Male to Female Transsexual Individuals have Female Neuron Numbers in the Central Subdivision of the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis - Tara's Transgender Resources
There also may be a DNA link to transsexualism. In a 2008 study, researchers discovered that MTF transsexuals have a longer version of the androgen receptor gene which causes weaker testosterone signals... similar to that of females.
Link to that information:
BBC NEWS | Health | Transsexual gene link identified
The first study that I posted has been reproduced and is being used to explore the answers to a numbers of questions about human sexual development.
If we are talking about biological gender development, we all know that an XX person is female and an XY person is male. However, what this creates is the anatomical differences between males and females. It does NOT impact the brain and hormone level development. It is theorized that in transsexuals, hormone surges, often occurring in the 3rd month of pregnancy occur in the opposite fashion as would typically occur. An XX fetus might get the hormonal surge, whereas an XY might not. This can account for the differences in the BSTc SOM receptors. There is some discussion that this may be caused by hormones or other medications ingested during pregnancy, such as DES, but there is no conclusive evidence surrounding this. What is clear is that a transsexual's brain-hormonal pathways operate similar to the sex opposite to what they are anatomically.
Things to consider when discussing transsexualism. Firstly, though there is a strong connection between the differentiation in BSTc SOM neurons and gender identity, the mechanisms that create gender are complex and not completely understood; the brain is still a very complicated organ.
Secondly, cases of children who may have had some genital abnormality at birth, and were "reassigned" to the opposite sex for cosmetic reasons at that time, retained their chromosomal identity. In other words, if a boy was born without a penis, but with testicles, and he was castrated a brought up as a girl, he would retain his gender identity and STILL identify as a boy. A study done with children like this found that all eventually presented as male, not female as they were raised. This gives credence to the idea that transsexualism is NOT socially or environmentally driven.
Hopkins research shows nature, not nurture, determines gender
Thirdly, it has been found that true transsexual people cannot be "cured" though psychiatry or psychology. This is NOT a mental disorder, but an inconsistency between brain-hormonal functioning/structure and chromosomal anatomy.
Further links that provided information for this post:
http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Research-Assets/etiology.pdf
Transsexuality
Transsexualism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Please feel free to ask any questions. This is just an overview as there is more information.
In my post, tomorrow, I will discuss treatment for GID and how it relates to transsexualism. There is a pretty clear set of guidelines, and as someone who actively treats folks with GID, I will identify them both from a clinical position and from an experiential position.
Since transexualism in and of itself is NOT a mental disorder, your point is not only irrelevant, but is a non-sequitur.
CaptainCourtesy;1059011371A study done in 2000 examined the part of the brain that identifies gender identity... [SIZE=2 said:the central subdivision of the bed-nucleus of the stria terminalis or BSTc for short. They examined the [/SIZE]somatostatin (SOM), a hormone, neurons. What they found was this. Males have 3-4 times the amount of SOM neurons than females do. This is regardless of sexual orientation; homosexual males were similar to males just as homosexual females were similar to females. However, when examining the SOM neurons of transsexuals, they found that FTM (females who claimed to be male) SOM neurons were in the MALE range while MTF (males who claimed to be females) SOM neurons were in the FEMALE range. They examined people who had hormone treatment, who had not, who had sex reassignment surgery, and who had not. Didn't matter. The SOM neuron levels remained the same. Also irrelevant was when the individual indicated their transsexualism.
Secondly, cases of children who may have had some genital abnormality at birth, and were "reassigned" to the opposite sex for cosmetic reasons at that time, retained their chromosomal identity. In other words, if a boy was born without a penis, but with testicles, and he was castrated a brought up as a girl, he would retain his gender identity and STILL identify as a boy. A study done with children like this found that all eventually presented as male, not female as they were raised. This gives credence to the idea that transsexualism is NOT socially or environmentally driven.
Thirdly, it has been found that true transsexual people cannot be "cured" though psychiatry or psychology. This is NOT a mental disorder, but an inconsistency between brain-hormonal functioning/structure and chromosomal anatomy.
I have looked at somatostatin and I am not seeing what role it could possibly play in gender identity.
What I still haven't heard is why he shouldn't be allowed to be homecoming king just because he was born a "she"? .
answer in bold, because the rules say "shes" can't be HK. There would be no harm in allowing this, since homecoming king is bull**** meaningless title anyway.
I am a white guy, my wife and I adopted two black boys. They have been raised in a white family, treated like white kids, they think of themselves as white kids but none of that changes the fact that they are black. they were born black and they will always be black.
As interesting as all that is...it has little bearing on this case. These studies are focued on male-female transsexuals. I would like to see data, if it exists, on the female-male transsexual (which is afterall what this thread is about) unless this is part of these studies and I just missed it.
I was just reading through this thread again when I was reminded of something from an Art History study I did in college. Took me a second to find a source to back it up. It looks like everyone arguing that a king is male by definition has just lost the battle.
As far back as Ancient Egypt, there has been precedent for female kings.
Egypt: The Kings (Pharaohs) of Ancient Egypt
Game. Set. Match.
That's not true. The first study I cited refers to both MTF AND FTM. Re-read the information and you will see that.
The choice of who is to be homecoming king or queen should be left up to the kids. Not their parents.
got it and thanks. I still see nothing that would prove that the brain differences are causative and not as a result of.
as the old saying goes: "correlation does not equal causation"
DOL -
Well, in the defense of CC, (Gawd really am I actually doing this) he is not stating something as fact. The truth is that you're correct, just like I pointed out in the post above yours. There are assumptions, but the assumptions are not without merit, as there are clear corollaries in the dimorphic structure of males and females. How relevant it is, is the main question, and just how sexually necessary the structure is is also a fair question, but the data does suggest a path for research, and on that alone I agree with CC's documentation.
Tim-
Here is what the DSM says:
DSM-IV-TR Diagnostic Criteria For Gender Identity Disorder
So, what do you have to say to that? How about the fact the Wikipedia page you cited explicitly says transsexualism is included in gender identity disorder?
Gender Identity Disorder
A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In children, the disturbance is manifested by four (or more) of the following:
1 .repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex
2. in boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; in girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing
3. strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make-believe play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex
4. intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex
5. strong preference for playmates of the other sex
B. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.
C. The disturbance is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition.
D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
I have looked at somatostatin and I am not seeing what role it could possibly play in gender identity.
That doesn't give credence to anything of the sort. For one a person being physically one gender thinking he or she is of that gender is what one would expect. Second, it requires you to discount the possibility that the child has not received subtle mixed signals or blatant mixed signals that would impact the child's perception of his or her gender.
There are many mental disorders that are believe to be incurable as I am sure you are aware. Being incurable does not mean it is not a disorder.
Read the DSM-IV classification of GID. Transsexualism is NOT mentioned at all. GID is a precursor to transsexualism, though the latter is NOT a disorder. I will explain what this means in my next post, but unless you can find the word "transsexual" in the DSM-IVTR diagnosis of GID, your position holds no water.
Oh, and in case you continue to argue this debunked point, here is the official DSM-IVTR diagnosis:
Find the word "transsexual in the quote box and place it in bold.
Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person feels that they are trapped within a body of the wrong sex. The condition is also sometimes known as:
* gender identity disorder
* gender incongruence
* transgenderism
People who have long-lasting and extreme gender dysphoria are known as transsexuals.
Transsexual is someone with an extreme and long-term case of gender dysphoria, who seeks to alter their biological sex to match their gender identity.
Then you are refusing to accept what is right in front of you. SOM is a hormone that inhibits the secretion of OTHER hormones; in this part of the brain, testosterone. Males have more of these neurons, causing LESS secretion, and more retainment. This results in the gender identity of male. The opposite happens with females.
It certainly does. Even if we give the possibility that SOME of the children received signals of some sort, EVERY SINGLE ONE reverted to the sex that their brains told them they were. It dismisses the social impact of gender in these cases.
You haven't debunked anything. You cited a source that actually explicitly said transsexualism was part of gender identity disorder. Though the link on Wikipedia was no longer working I found the new page on the NHS site:
Just in case there is any confusion here is another part where they make this clear:
So what do you have to say to this? Is the National Health Service of the United Kingdom ignorant of medicine or are they just lying?
I understand that somatostatin inhibits the secretion of certain hormones. However, I see no indication in your source or in any study I looked up that it in any way increases secretion of testosterone, which is what it would have to do in order for the connection to be legitimate in any way. Hormones act by being released into the rest of the body, not being held back from the rest of the body. It stands to reason that as men secrete far more testosterone they would need more somatostatin to keep it in control.
The more plausible explanation for the higher level of those neurons is that of prenatal hormone levels. Many claim hormonal levels in the womb determine "gender identity" so it seems reasonable to conclude that you are postulating a reverse cause and effect. Higher levels of these neurons is merely a symptom of a different alleged cause.
It is not a mere possibility. If the parents are aware of the issue, something that seems unavoidable, they will give mixed signals. Maybe when you focus on the broad and general nature of the mind you lose sight of the particulars, but people give clear and blatant signs that can be picked up on subconsciously from birth. Parents who know the child was born a boy will without fail give mixed signals. These are not people trained in the art of deception. Even if they try to hide it the signals will be picked up on whether consciously or unconsciously.
And you have proven nothing. Nowhere does it say that transsexualism ITSELF is a disorder.
Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person feels that they are trapped within a body of the wrong sex. The condition is also sometimes known as:
* gender identity disorder
* gender incongruence
* transgenderism
People who have long-lasting and extreme gender dysphoria are known as transsexuals.
You are just seeing what you want to see, not what's accurate.
SOM inhibits hormones and can inhibit ANY hormone. In this case, it is inhibiting testosterone. And. in this case, by inhibiting their secretion, the BSTc part of the brain (sexually dimorphic) retains the hormone, assisting in causing maleness. So, sorry, but you are not correct.
Since you have no evidence of this "possibility" and research tends to disagree with you, I conclude that your position is unfounded.
Here is what it says (I'll highlight the important parts for you):
Saying it is also known as gender identity disorder means this is just another name for the condition. The point being that these terms are interchangeable.
I think you are the one seeing what you want to see.
Transgender is not a formal diagnosis, but many professionals and members of the public found it easier to use informally
than GIDNOS, which is a formal diagnosis.
Where are you getting this notion about testosterone being retained in the brain and causing maleness? I don't find it in the study you cite and I find no mention of this claim. Perhaps you should reconsider insisting on this as the explanation.
You are concluding my position about unconscious expressions of emotion and their unconscious interpretation is unfounded because of what now? Seriously, I am giving you something incredibly basic here. I mean, haven't you ever watched or at least heard about Lie to Me?
Nope. Again, you are absolutely wrong, here. From the "Standards of Care" link I already posted:
NOT a formal diagnosis. Clear cut. You are incorrect.
The most recent prevalence information from the Netherlands for the transsexual end of the gender identity disorder spectrum is 1 in 11,900 males and 1 in 30,400 females.
No, the same researchers did a study on THIS several years before this particular study. It's what prompted them to move forward. I cannot locate that study, but I remember reading it last year when I read this one, also.
You are presenting NOTHING substantial or evidenciary and as I said, research disagrees with you. Your position remains unfounded.
Do you mean this one?:
http://www.wpath.org/Documents2/socv6.pdf
Because I think you should see what else it says (on page 2 under Epidemiological Considerations about midway into the Prevalance paragraph):
That seems to be saying transsexualism is just one form of gender identity disorder. It does say the term is not a formal diagnosis (it says earlier on page 2 under Clinical Threshold that the term is used to refer to the disorder informally), but that just stays consistent with what I already noted in that the term is used to describe a subset of gender identity disorder.
Cite it. I am not just going to take your word for it when every single bit of information I find on endocrinology only talks about hormones having an effect on anything, including the brain, when they are secreted.
When your position is so flimsy that your own sources are disagreeing with you I fail to see why I need to do any extra work. Honestly, what I am saying about unconscious expressions is so uncontroversial that it is amazing to imagine anyone insisting it is unfounded.
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