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Toning down the rhetoric [W:164,483]

Amadeus

Chews the Cud
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Is it possible to tone down the rhetoric so that a real debate can be had on abortions issues? Can we agree that...

1) ...a newly fertilized egg is not a baby?

2) ...someone who has an abortion for health reasons is not necessarily evil?

3) ...religious condemnation of abortion is unclear at best?

When you start a discussion with "baby-killer", it isn't likely to go anywhere productive.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

While we are at it, perhaps we can also display that we are actually commited to a toning down of rhetoric rather than just that of the side to which we object,and mention all the idiotic crap about "parasites"and "rapists" and whatnot.

Pushing a one-sided agenda does not contribute to the toning down of rhetoric.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

While we are at it, perhaps we can also display that we are actually commited to a toning down of rhetoric rather than just that of the side to which we object,and mention all the idiotic crap about "parasites"and "rapists" and whatnot.

Pushing a one-sided agenda does not contribute to the toning down of rhetoric.

I kind of understand what you're saying, but your examples are not great. What is your point about rapists?
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

I kind of understand what you're saying, but your examples are not great. What is your point about rapists?

People comparing a developing fetus to a rapist is not inflamatory?

Calling a fetus something so profoundly idiotic as a "parasite" does not represent extreme rhetoric?
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

People comparing a developing fetus to a rapist is not inflamatory?

Calling a fetus something so profoundly idiotic as a "parasite" does not represent extreme rhetoric?

I have never in my life seen the former statement made. That a fetus is a rapist.

I agree that a developing human life shouldn't be called a parasite.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

1) ...a newly fertilized egg is not a baby?

If the sperm and egg cell have joined, if fertilization has taken place, there is no "egg cell." There is an organism of the species Homo sapiens in the zygote stage of life.

Rhetoric aside, a lot of people don't even have the fundamental understanding of what it is we're even talking about.

I certainly agree that accuracy in characterizing what is happening - the thing we're debating - is essential.

People comparing a developing fetus to a rapist is not inflamatory?

Calling a fetus something so profoundly idiotic as a "parasite" does not represent extreme rhetoric?

This sort of thing is not common in most discussions, but you have a point - the insanity you're referencing in this post runs rampant around these parts.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

I have never in my life seen the former statement made. That a fetus is a rapist.

I agree that a developing human life shouldn't be called a parasite.

You are a visitor, clearly, to this forum. The fetus is frequently described by one "regular" as guilty of sexual assault.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

You are a visitor, clearly, to this forum. The fetus is frequently described by one "regular" as guilty of sexual assault.

I have not seen it, but I would say this person should lay off the fetus rape charge.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

Is it possible to tone down the rhetoric so that a real debate can be had on abortions issues? Can we agree that...

1) ...a newly fertilized egg is not a baby?

2) ...someone who has an abortion for health reasons is not necessarily evil?

3) ...religious condemnation of abortion is unclear at best?

When you start a discussion with "baby-killer", it isn't likely to go anywhere productive.

1) A newly conceived zygote is just as much a person deserving of the right to life as you or I.

2) Necessity is not a defense to murder with respect to born persons (see Dudley and Stephens), neither should it be with respect to unborn persons. A fetus cannot be legitimately considered an aggressor, as it has absolutely no control over the forces which might create medical complications of a pregnancy.

3) Which religion?
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

Is it possible to tone down the rhetoric so that a real debate can be had on abortions issues? Can we agree that...

1) ...a newly fertilized egg is not a baby?

No. I cannot agree.

A human being is a human being, from the very beginning of his life, to the very end.

To needlessly and unjustly end the life of any human being is an intrinsically evil act.



...religious condemnation of abortion is unclear at best?

What part of “Thou shalt not kill.” is unclear? Nearly every religion, and nearly every secular society contains clear prohibitions against killing any human being, except under certain clearly-defined, drastic circumstances. None of the circumstances that are otherwise required under nearly all sets of laws to justify a killing apply in the vast majority of abortion cases.



When you start a discussion with "baby-killer", it isn't likely to go anywhere productive.

Sometimes, it is necessary to call a spade a spade. “…anywhere productive…” that you think a discussion should go, if it takes a lie to let it go there, then it's not the right way to go.
 
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Re: Toning down the rhetoric

Calling a fetus something so profoundly idiotic as a "parasite" does not represent extreme rhetoric?

The “pro-choice” side doesn't really have much choice (no pun intended,but perhaps I should have). Their side cannot gain any traction at all unless they can dehumanize their victims; convince themselves, and others, that the innocent children whose murder they defend are really not human beings at all, but merely “parasites” or some other dehumanizing term.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

You are a visitor, clearly, to this forum. The fetus is frequently described by one "regular" as guilty of sexual assault.

I'm not going to go looking for it now, but I know that on this site, I have repeatedly been accused of being on the side of rapists because I oppose the murder of innocent children.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

Is it possible to tone down the rhetoric so that a real debate can be had on abortions issues? Can we agree that...

1) ...a newly fertilized egg is not a baby?

2) ...someone who has an abortion for health reasons is not necessarily evil?

3) ...religious condemnation of abortion is unclear at best?

When you start a discussion with "baby-killer", it isn't likely to go anywhere productive.

Oh, you idealist! Of course the anti-choice people on these threads can't all agree on that. Many if not most of them believe a zygote is a baby, and certainly that a three-week-old embryo is a baby. Some believe that the only excuse for a woman to have an abortion is if her physical life itself is imminently threatened and wouldn't dream of making an exception to save her major health functions. Quite a few of them have religious reasons for being against abortion.

The purpose of debating with them is to find out what anti-choice people actually think and hone our own arguments against their position. They would have to change for the debate to become productive of anything else.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

I'm not going to go looking for it now, but I know that on this site, I have repeatedly been accused of being on the side of rapists because I oppose the murder of innocent children.

Most people oppose the murder of innocent children, but abortions do not kill children/kids/babies/human being/persons. They mostly abort embryo's and fetuses not even out of the first trimester.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

I have never in my life seen the former statement made. That a fetus is a rapist.

I agree that a developing human life shouldn't be called a parasite.

1. The "fetus-as-rapist" position is a legal argument made famous by law professor Eileen McDonagh in Breaking the Abortion Deadlock: From choice to consent (1996) (Breaking the Abortion Deadlock : From Choice to Consent: From Choice to Consent - Eileen McDonagh Associate Professor of Political Science Northeastern University - Google Books.

Her key point is to deal with the issue of legal consent in relation to the right to abortion whether or not the zygote/embryo/fetus is considered a person. First, she dispenses with the notion that consent to sexual intercourse is consent to pregnancy. She then considers why a separate consent to pregnancy is an issue, by considering the area of law that allows the use of deadly force if necessary as part of self-defense and defense of others against threats to life and threats and acts of such felonies as rape, sexual assault, kidnapping, and robbery and other areas of law where a person's consent is the only difference a crime and a legal act.

The fact that the only difference between consensual sexual intercourse and rape is consent is one of the starting points of her case - she points out that you have a right to defend yourself or others against the threat of sexual penetration with deadly force if necessary even if the assailant is legally insane (and of course you can do so if sexual penetration has occurred and you're trying to end it).

Her anti-choice critics have addressed her argument with references to "the prenatal rapist." However, if the government criminalizes abortion, it is more comparable to a rapist, in that it consciously uses its force to keep the embryo in a pregnant woman in order to obtain the satisfaction of obtaining a new person after the birth.

I actually like McDonagh's argument as much as I like Judith Jarvis Thomson's philosophical argument involving comparison to being medically hooked up to a violinist against one's will to save his life in her essay, A Defense of Abortion (http://www3.nd.edu/~brettler/ethics/Abortion1.pdf). But lots of anti-choice people are enraged by it.

2. As regards "parasite" rhetoric -

In biological ecology, biological symbiosis takes several forms of relationship between organisms: mutualism, commensalism, parasitism, amensalism, and synnecrosis. Though these are most commonly discussed in interspecific terms, in fact there are both interspecific and intraspecific forms of symbiosis, including biologically parasitic relationships.

Mammalian pregnancy rarely biologically benefits the pregnant organism, always biologically affects that organism, and always does some biological harm to that organism, but it rarely results in the deaths of both pregnant female and embryo or fetus. Hence, of the forms of symbiosis, only parasitism provides an accurate description of this relation of pregnant female and embryo or fetus.

The trophoblast implants and uses some of the endometrial tissue along with some of its own to form a placenta at the interface with the endometrial wall, and an embryo on the other side of the placenta. The placenta on the side with the attached embryo emits a chemical cloaking device to hide the alien DNA from the woman's immune system so that it will not reject the placenta+embryo. This device is neurokinin B with phosphocholine, which is also used by parasitic nematode worms to avoid rejection.

The placenta also produces (based on the embryo side) the enzyme indoleamine 2, 3-dioxygenase to catabolize the local L-tryptophan in the woman's body. Since certain of the woman's immune attack T-cells cannot live without L-tryptophan, an amino acid essential for life, this catabolization starves those cells, which go into latency to survive and can no longer fulfill their function to protect the woman's body against invasive viruses and infections. If this did not occur, those T-cells would reject the implantation and cause spontaneous abortion, as experiments with non-human placental mammals have shown.

The placenta rechannels local blood vessels so as to access oxygen, nutrients, and antibodies of the woman's blood to transfer to the embryo.

Despite the cloaking device, and the enzyme's starving of the particular T-cells and causing apoptosis or cell death in some of them, the woman's blood complement, a part of her immune system that usually attacks infections, still attacks the placenta and embryo, but not strongly enough to reject the implantation.

The placenta has itself recently been termed "a neuroendocrine parasite" by one scientist (see: P Lowry, The placenta is simply a neuroendocrine parasite, 2008 (The placenta is simply a neuroendocrine pa... [J Neuroendocrinol. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI). However, all of its parasitic behavior serves the embryo, it arises on the side made from trophoblast tissue, and the embryo, not the placenta, further develops using the woman's blood oxygen, nutrients, and antibodies.

Some people call the embryo/fetus a parasite on this basis. Certainly, the woman's body goes through self-cannibalization to provide the necessary nutrients for the embryo/fetus - hence, pregnant women can lose bone calcium during pregnancy, experience head hair loss, and have various other negative health changes. Morning sickness itself develops as compensation for a suppressed immune system.

You can find medical references that indicate that the relation of the embryo or fetus and pregnant woman is one of parasitism going back to the late 1800s and in earlier 20th century editions of Gray's Anatomy of the Human Body (Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body). There was a shift in the 1960s from viewing the embryo or fetus as "a perfect parasite" that takes only what it needs from the woman's blood to seeing it as an imperfect parasite, thanks to the many cases where thalidomide taken by the woman to combat disease produced seriously deformed fetuses.

But the issue is not whether or not a developing human life is "a parasite," but that its biological mode of living from implantation to birth is clearly parasitic.

Anti-choicers hate this fact. They want to say that the relationship is symbiotic in the sense of mutualism, where both organisms benefit, or commensalism, where one organism benefits and the other is neither benefited or harmed. They will claim that the woman benefits because her genes are transmitted to a next generation. However, that does not benefit the woman's body biologically at all - it merely benefits the genes that are replicated. There are quite a few detrimental effects of pregnancy on the body of the woman, e.g., see: THE LIZ LIBRARY TABLE OF CONTENTS.

So unless the woman actually wants to get pregnant and stay pregnant and give birth, and therefore gets whatever psychological compensation she thinks it provides, it's really hard to argue that the embryo or fetus isn't parasitic.

Together, the consent argument of McDonagh and these facts basically legitimate the claim that any voluntary induced abortion of an unwanted pregnancy is a form of self-defense of basic rights of bodily autonomy and health care.
 
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Re: Toning down the rhetoric

1. The "fetus-as-rapist" position is a legal argument made famous by law professor Eileen McDonagh in Breaking the Abortion Deadlock: From choice to consent (1996) (Breaking the Abortion Deadlock : From Choice to Consent: From Choice to Consent - Eileen McDonagh Associate Professor of Political Science Northeastern University - Google Books.

It's an argument that vividly demonstrates just how evil and depraved the “Pro-Choice” position truly is.

Seriously, if you think that you can defend a particular position by equating the most innocent of all human beings with one of the worst classes of criminals, then you have to know that the position that you are thus trying to defend must be just plain wrong.
 
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Re: Toning down the rhetoric

If the sperm and egg cell have joined, if fertilization has taken place, there is no "egg cell." There is an organism of the species Homo sapiens in the zygote stage of life.

The reason that so many people, including many biologists, refer to a fertilized egg as well as a zygote is that the sperm and egg cells do not join equally. A small part of the sperm cell penetrates the ovum and the rest of that cell is destroyed. The ovum or egg cell is not destroyed. While DNA contributions of both sperm and egg go through recombination, and the centromere structure is obviously added to the contents, the ovum provides the basic cell wall of the zygotic cell as well as the nutrients by which it goes through cellular replication. Any competent biologist can see that ovum is transformed by the spermatic contribution, but could not justifiably say that the sperm cell and egg cell joined equally - because they don't.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

Most people oppose the murder of innocent children, but abortions do not kill children/kids/babies/human being/persons. They mostly abort embryo's and fetuses not even out of the first trimester.

Right. And we did not actually enslave and abuse any human beings in the early part of our nation's history—only niggers.

No human beings were killed in the Nazi concentration camps—only Jews.

What great company you are in.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

If the sperm and egg cell have joined, if fertilization has taken place, there is no "egg cell." There is an organism of the species Homo sapiens in the zygote stage of life.

The reason that so many people, including many biologists, refer to a fertilized egg as well as a zygote is that the sperm and egg cells do not join equally. A small part of the sperm cell penetrates the ovum and the rest of that cell is destroyed. No part of the ovum or egg cell is destroyed.

While DNA contributions of both sperm and egg go through recombination, and the centromere structure is obviously added to the contents, the changes occur inside the ovum, which provides the basic cell wall around the zygotic cell and all of the nutrients for going through subsequent cellular replication.

Any competent biologist can see that ovum is transformed by the spermatic contribution but could not justifiably claim that the sperm cell and egg cell joined equally - because they don't.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

You are a visitor, clearly, to this forum. The fetus is frequently described by one "regular" as guilty of sexual assault.

I am the one who discusses blastocyst implantation in terms of sexual assault, and I have NEVER claimed that the embryo or fetus is guilty of anything. It is incapable of being guilty because it has no mind, no intention, no biological capability of intentional behavior, so it is not legally competent. While a legally insane rapist is capable of mind and intention, it has no legal competence and is therefore also not guilty.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

I am the one who discusses blastocyst implantation in terms of sexual assault, and I have NEVER claimed that the embryo or fetus is guilty of anything. It is incapable of being guilty because it has no mind, no intention, no biological capability of intentional behavior, so it is not legally competent. While a legally insane rapist is capable of mind and intention, it has no legal competence and is therefore also not guilty.

And yet you advocate inflicting on that child, without the benefit of trial or due process of law, a punishment more severe than is routinely imposed on actual rapists.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

While we are at it, perhaps we can also display that we are actually commited to a toning down of rhetoric rather than just that of the side to which we object,and mention all the idiotic crap about "parasites"and "rapists" and whatnot.

Pushing a one-sided agenda does not contribute to the toning down of rhetoric.

You are conflating political debate with the law. All you have to deal with is the law. All other "opinions" are moot.

Once you can focus on that, your blood presure will recover.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

It's an argument that vividly demonstrates just how evil and depraved the “Pro-Choice” position truly is.

Seriously, if you think that you can defend a particular position by equating the most innocent of all human beings with one of the worst classes of criminals, then you have to know that the position that you are thus trying to defend must be just plain wrong.

McDonagh doesn't compare an embryo to a legally competent rapist, but to a legally insane one. If you're legally insane, you're not guilty in a court of law. Neither the embryo nor the legally insane rapist is guilty of anything.

However, just as the victim being raped by the legally insane person has a right to use deadly force if necessary to get his penis out of her vagina, the victim of unwanted pregnancy to which she never explicitly consented has a right to use deadly force if necessary to get the body of the embryo out of her uterus, whether or not it's a person.
 
Re: Toning down the rhetoric

And yet you advocate inflicting on that child, without the benefit of trial or due process of law, a punishment more severe than is routinely imposed on actual rapists.

What does "Due Precess" mean to you? Should the state procecute each and every case in which a woman wanted to terminate her pregnancy?

What legal reasoning would the state have to charge the woman?
 
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