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Diogenes said:It was the French monarchy that came to our aid during the Revolutionary War. Ever since the French Revolution, our relationship with France has been rocky at best: Our Oldest Enemy : A History of America's Disastrous Relationship with France. The French are not our friends, and as allies they are there whenever they need us.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:Hogwash. A long list of French aristocrats contributed themselves and their resources to the American Revolution 8 years before support for the revolution was made official policy. Some even defied direct orders from Louis to aid and take part in the revolution. Regardless of your current bias against France none of you can avoid saying that the French were absolutley essential to victory in the Revolution when faced with the facts. Without the French we would have lost. The bias stretches back to the Continental Congress which shafted most of those individuals by not honoring it's agreements and contracts with them.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:I never said anything to the contrary, the French contributed greatly to our revolution, thus the battle cry of the American G.I. during WW1: "Lafayette we are here." I think you missed my whole point.
Thank you for emphasizing my point that it was the French monarchy and the French aristocrats who supported the US revolution. The French republic has never been our friend.Napoleon's Nightingale said:Hogwash. A long list of French aristocrats contributed themselves and their resources to the American Revolution 8 years before support for the revolution was made official policy. Some even defied direct orders from Louis to aid and take part in the revolution. Regardless of your current bias against France none of you can avoid saying that the French were absolutley essential to victory in the Revolution when faced with the facts. Without the French we would have lost. The bias stretches back to the Continental Congress which shafted most of those individuals by not honoring it's agreements and contracts with them.
Diogenes said:Thank you for emphasizing my point that it was the French monarchy and the French aristocrats who supported the US revolution. The French republic has never been our friend.
Every time they needed us.Napoleon's Nightingale said:The French Republic has always been our friend...
Yes, and they paid for it with their lives under the guillotine.You ignore the fact that MANY French aristocrats were part of the French Republic and played major roles.
Diogenes said:Every time they needed us.
Diogenes said:Yes, and they paid for it with their lives under the guillotine.
WWI? WWII?Napoleon's Nightingale said:I can turn that back around at you and say that the U.S. is only friends with France when we need them.
Dead is dead...they were executed because Robespierre was a paranoid homicidal nutcase who saw plots against the Republic everywhere and believed they were a threat to the Republic.
Diogenes said:WWI? WWII?
Diogenes said:The fact remains that the French republic is Our Oldest Enemy.
UtahBill said:I doubt that France aided us based on a belief in our cause.More likely, they did it because they hated the British. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend)
UtahBill said:Our Revolution led to their revolution. The money they spent helping us sped up their revolution a bit, and we were not in a great position to pay back the aid when they needed it the most. But the money was not likely to help anyway.
UtahBill said:The French peasantry was just as unhappy with their royalty and upper classes as we were with our overlords back in England.
UtahBill said:Maybe even more so, as the French monarchy aristocracy were notorious about ignoring the peasants, letting them starve to death, putting them into prison for the smallest of crimes, etc. And the wonderful church was right in the thick of it, living large along with the wealthy while pretending to care about their parishioners.
UtahBill said:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
pretty good read on causes, etc.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:American Revolution :roll:
iamjack said:What are you talking about? You can't skirt the issue of WW1 & WW2 by going back the premise of the American Revolution. Diogenes may have been intellectually lazy with his one-liner, but that was that was the stupidest counterpoint ever.
Very true. The whole subject is explored in depth by Simon Schama in Citizens : A Chronicle of the French Revolution. It's downright eerie how much of the rhetoric and tactics were replayed in Russia a bit over a century later.UtahBill said:I doubt that France aided us based on a belief in our cause. More likely, they did it because they hated the British. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend)
Our Revolution led to their revolution. The money they spent helping us sped up their revolution a bit, and we were not in a great position to pay back the aid when they needed it the most. But the money was not likely to help anyway. The French peasantry was just as unhappy with their royalty and upper classes as we were with our overlords back in England.
Maybe even more so, as the French monarchy aristocracy were notorious about ignoring the peasants, letting them starve to death, putting them into prison for the smallest of crimes, etc. And the wonderful church was right in the thick of it, living large along with the wealthy while pretending to care about their parishioners.
Whaddaya mean, "intellectually lazy"?? We'd been over the same material so many times already that it didn't warrant a serious response... :mrgreen:iamjack said:Diogenes may have been intellectually lazy with his one-liner, ...
Diogenes said:Whaddaya mean, "intellectually lazy"?? We'd been over the same material so many times already that it didn't warrant a serious response... :mrgreen:
iamjack said:While they offered us fiscal assistance during the revolution, there are some hundreds of thousands of American boys and men buried on French soil.
iamjack said:And despite this, French opinion of the U.S. is one of vindiction due to thier own sense of inadicuacy and the extreme social reaction therefrom.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:ROFL. Can you name 1 American who aided or took part in the French Revolution? No. Can you name one instance in which the Continental Congress honored it's agreements and contracts with French aristocrats? No. Most of the French bourgeoisie and aristocratic contributers to the American Revolution contributed because they genuinely believed in the cause. I can turn that back around at you and say that the U.S. is only friends with France when we need them. After the French provided us with the means to win our war against the British and we won the Continental Congress stabbed France in the back.
Thats a lie. Most of the aristocrats and bourgeoisie who aided the American Revolution were not executed. Those that were were not executed for taking part in the American Revolution..they were executed because Robespierre was a paranoid homicidal nutcase who saw plots against the Republic everywhere and believed they were a threat to the Republic.
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