To the extent abortion should be allowed, and conditions that should be met

[mrjurrs]

How does killing your children have anything to do with abortion, which is the word that refers to ending a pregnancy by means other than birth? What right do you have to claim that an embryo inside a girl or woman is her child if it came into existence by forcible gang rape? What right do you have to claim that abortion kills even an embryo in the case of molar pregnancy, when there is no embryo?

What right do you have to use the law to keep the body of an embryo/fetus inside a woman's body if you don't have a right to keep your penis inside her, draw her blood for transfusion, or use one of her organs for transplantation? Without the woman's consent to pregnancy, a state law against abortion is nothing but gang rap

?

 

[coyote505]

Freeing the slaves didnt violate anyone's Constitutional rights. Like to bodily autonomy, due process, self-determination, life, etc.

Slaves were fully autonomous individuals capable of exercising their rights when recognized.

Prior to the 13th Amendment, couldn't Abolition be characterized as a taking of property for public use (creation of an independent taxpayer, potential draftee, etc.), without compensation, in violation of the 5th Amendment? Do you have a link to support your assertion that slaveholders were offered compensation, by who, universal, or some instances?

 

[coyote505]

I'd just like to see what other people have to say.

Where do US states stand on abortion bans as new Trump era dawns? | Context by TRF

Abortion rights groups fear Donald Trump's second presidential term will lead to more

www.context.news

There is of course more nuance between pro-life and pro-choice.

Personally, I think no abortion should take place past 120 days, unless it's to save the mother's life. At 120 days, it's practically having a soul of its own without a doubt, and still pregnancy is still a very significant and should be treated as something with respect. The mother's life is still significant

Before, I think in situations of rape, mental & physical instability, and some other extreme cases.

And even earlier, around the first 12 weeks, reasoning such as finical struggles, etc, are questionable for me.

I also think an abortion shouldn't be administered without a medical report filed by 2 or more credible (female) physicians.

I think that a large part of what prevents any compromise on the issue of abortion, European style, is the overabundance of religion in the US. For many Churchy folks, there is no middle ground. Catholics, and many Thumpers, say it's a baby from the moment of conception. Jews say it's not a baby until it breates its first breath of air. Non-Churchy folks think there is a continuum between conception and birth, which supports no abortion restrictions at all in early pregnancy, and increasing restrictions in the later stages. Unfortunately for this position, it is uncomfortable determining where the lines should be, legally and morally, AND if Thumpers are in charge of the government, how to get THEM to respect the lines.

 

[Lursa]

Prior to the 13th Amendment, couldn't Abolition be characterized as a taking of property for public use (creation of an independent taxpayer, potential draftee, etc.), without compensation, in violation of the 5th Amendment? Do you have a link to support your assertion that slaveholders were offered compensation, by who, universal, or some instances?

U.S. Senate: The Civil War: The Senate's Story

_The Civil War: The Senate's Story

www.senate.gov

April 16, 1862: Compensated Emancipation Act

The federal government compensated the “owners” of enslaved people for their “loss of property.” The people whose labor and families were stolen for generations were not compensated nor given any assistance for the transition to freedom.

www.zinnedproject.org

Opinion | When Slaveowners Got Reparations (Published 2019)

Lincoln signed a bill in 1862 that paid up to $300 for every enslaved person freed.

www.nytimes.com

Compensated emancipation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There Was a Time Reparations Were Actually Paid Out - Just Not to Formerly Enslaved People - UConn Today

UConn Professor Thomas Craemer writes that reparations relating to slavery have been paid in the past - just not to formerly enslaved people.

today.uconn.edu

 

[coyote505]

U.S. Senate: The Civil War: The Senate's Story

_The Civil War: The Senate's Story

www.senate.gov

April 16, 1862: Compensated Emancipation Act

The federal government compensated the “owners” of enslaved people for their “loss of property.” The people whose labor and families were stolen for generations were not compensated nor given any assistance for the transition to freedom.

www.zinnedproject.org

Opinion | When Slaveowners Got Reparations (Published 2019)

Lincoln signed a bill in 1862 that paid up to $300 for every enslaved person freed.

www.nytimes.com

Compensated emancipation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There Was a Time Reparations Were Actually Paid Out - Just Not to Formerly Enslaved People - UConn Today

UConn Professor Thomas Craemer writes that reparations relating to slavery have been paid in the past - just not to formerly enslaved people.

today.uconn.edu

So, only after the war was on. Probably so that Yankees could claim forever after that they Tried to settle things peacefully. Around the time of the Civil War, a good slave was worth around $3,000 in that days currency, more than the average house. Given the structure of the Southern economy, Abolition would be equivalent to Al Gore taking power and abolishing all internal combustion engines immediately, without compensation, and with no replacement power source available. And Yankees didn't understand why Southerners didn't accept this peacefully?

 

[Lursa]

So, only after the war was on. Probably so that Yankees could claim forever after that they Tried to settle things peacefully. Around the time of the Civil War, a good slave was worth around $3,000 in that days currency, more than the average house. Given the structure of the Southern economy, Abolition would be equivalent to Al Gore taking power and abolishing all internal combustion engines immediately, without compensation, and with no replacement power source available. And Yankees didn't understand why Southerners didn't accept this peacefully?

No, read. They tried for a long time before. Your other speculation is clearly based on a conclusion you 'want' to be true.

 

[coyote505]

No, read. They tried for a long time before. Your other speculation is clearly based on a conclusion you 'want' to be true.

I was simply pointing out that what liberals try to paint as a black and white issue of good and evil, actually involved a human institution that had existed worldwide for many thousands of years. The South's problem was that, as with many other new developments, it was a Late Adopter of the new institution. In this case, about a hundred years late. Had the issue not come to a head until After the introduction of John MacCormack's Combine Reaper in the 1880s, it might have not been a big deal for the South to free the slaves. That invention, which had been preceded by a generation of sharecropping, from the end of the Civil War, made a large part of the agricultural labor force surplus, and unemployed.

While liberals, here at home and abroad, like to label slavery "America's Original Sin", there was nothing original about it. White people did not invent Slavery. They invented Abolition, maybe the first time that the Slave Holder group decided that slavery was bad. Previously, slavery was only bad if you were the slave. If fortunes turned, and the former slave became a slave Holder, then slavery was right and ordained by God. Slavery still exists in the Third World. Actually, it still exists Here, if the pimp is holding onto his working girls by force or threat.

 

[Lursa]

I was simply pointing out that what liberals try to paint as a black and white issue of good and evil, actually involved a human institution that had existed worldwide for many thousands of years. The South's problem was that, as with many other new developments, it was a Late Adopter of the new institution. In this case, about a hundred years late. Had the issue not come to a head until After the introduction of John MacCormack's Combine Reaper in the 1880s, it might have not been a big deal for the South to free the slaves. That invention, which had been preceded by a generation of sharecropping, from the end of the Civil War, made a large part of the agricultural labor force surplus, and unemployed.

While liberals, here at home and abroad, like to label slavery "America's Original Sin", there was nothing original about it. White people did not invent Slavery. They invented Abolition, maybe the first time that the Slave Holder group decided that slavery was bad. Previously, slavery was only bad if you were the slave. If fortunes turned, and the former slave became a slave Holder, then slavery was right and ordained by God. Slavery still exists in the Third World. Actually, it still exists Here, if the pimp is holding onto his working girls by force or threat.

I have no idea what you're talking about with "America's original sin." I was never taught that in school, never heard it as an agenda, never found that the global practice of slavery long before America was created was hidden or minimized.

Do you have something that specifically addresses what I posted?

 

[choiceone]

I think that a large part of what prevents any compromise on the issue of abortion, European style, is the overabundance of religion in the US. For many Churchy folks, there is no middle ground. Catholics, and many Thumpers, say it's a baby from the moment of conception. Jews say it's not a baby until it breates its first breath of air. Non-Churchy folks think there is a continuum between conception and birth, which supports no abortion restrictions at all in early pregnancy, and increasing restrictions in the later stages. Unfortunately for this position, it is uncomfortable determining where the lines should be, legally and morally, AND if Thumpers are in charge of the government, how to get THEM to respect the lines.

It's way more likely that what prevents a European style compromise is a refusal on the part of anti-abortion people to accept the many exceptions most Europeans do, and the difference in health care systems.

Most Europeans accept not just rape, incest, and "life of the woman" exceptions, and fatal fetal anomaly exceptions, but exceptions for the health of the woman, including mental health, and for other fetal anomalies and disabilities. In many European nations, the law has even sided with a right to abortion in cases of fetal Down Syndrome.

In addition, European nations typically have national health care, lots of public clinics located near people's residences, it's low cost, and abortion is either low cost or free under the system if done at the legal time.

 

[choiceone]

I was simply pointing out that what liberals try to paint as a black and white issue of good and evil, actually involved a human institution that had existed worldwide for many thousands of years. The South's problem was that, as with many other new developments, it was a Late Adopter of the new institution. In this case, about a hundred years late. Had the issue not come to a head until After the introduction of John MacCormack's Combine Reaper in the 1880s, it might have not been a big deal for the South to free the slaves. That invention, which had been preceded by a generation of sharecropping, from the end of the Civil War, made a large part of the agricultural labor force surplus, and unemployed.

While liberals, here at home and abroad, like to label slavery "America's Original Sin", there was nothing original about it. White people did not invent Slavery. They invented Abolition, maybe the first time that the Slave Holder group decided that slavery was bad. Previously, slavery was only bad if you were the slave. If fortunes turned, and the former slave became a slave Holder, then slavery was right and ordained by God. Slavery still exists in the Third World. Actually, it still exists Here, if the pimp is holding onto his working girls by force or threat.

This is a lie. First, on the Australian continent, there was no slavery until Europeans came. Second, Britain ended slavery well before the US did. Third, in history, not all slavery involved such severe treatment as in the US - in some countries, only POWs were slaves, they could own property and do business on their time off, and if they got enough money, they could buy their freedom.

Slavery of women was almost always worse for women because it was often sexual slavery, which could give women diseases and make them pregnant, which led to increased risk of disease, disability, and death.