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To fire or not to fire?

DeMaxx

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should BUsh fire Rove for leaking information about a CIA agent?
 

Alastor

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Should Bush fire Rove for leaking information about a CIA agent?
Absolutely.

What would happen to anyone else? How can you have someon as a chief advisor if they're undermining your intelligence gathering agencies and placing our people, resources and contacts in danger?

He outted Plame, and she got out. But what about the people she had contact with? Now their governments and associations know she was a spy, and anyone she had contact with is now being scrutinized intensely by opposing governments.

Plame isn't the only one that was compromised here, but all of her sources as well.

Karl Rove should be treated the same as we'd treat anyone else; like a traitor.
 

DeMaxx

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Alastor said:
Absolutely.

What would happen to anyone else? How can you have someon as a chief advisor if they're undermining your intelligence gathering agencies and placing our people, resources and contacts in danger?

He outted Plame, and she got out. But what about the people she had contact with? Now their governments and associations know she was a spy, and anyone she had contact with is now being scrutinized intensely by opposing governments.

Plame isn't the only one that was compromised here, but all of her sources as well.

Karl Rove should be treated the same as we'd treat anyone else; like a traitor.

Excellent answer.
 

Nemo

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Karl Rove is getting no more than his just deserts for being a scandalmonger. It is a mark of a mean disposition to deal in gossip or scandal; and such a rabid backbiter as Rove can hardly hope to escape getting kicked for behaving like a vicious dog. What he did to retired diplomat Joseph Wilson and his wife (as he did to Senator John McCain and his wife) was despicable. The great and the good are not little or mean in their affairs; nor will lions stir from their lair for a hyena being eaten by jackals.
 

ncallaway

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I think the president should make good on his promise to fire anyone involved in the leak. It doesn't look like he is going to back that promise (by this point it seems pretty clear that Rove was in some way involved) just yet. I think to keep his record as a "straight shooter" (a record I personally don't believe, but many do), he has to keep his promises to the American people.
 

galenrox

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As much as I'd like to and have previously leapt to conclusions, the investigation's still going on, and any conclusions should be drawn after that's over. I'd say it's pretty likely that Rove did it, and thus should be fired, and then arrested and tried, but who knows? It is possible that he did nothing wrong!
 

faminedynasty

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galenrox said:
As much as I'd like to and have previously leapt to conclusions, the investigation's still going on, and any conclusions should be drawn after that's over. I'd say it's pretty likely that Rove did it, and thus should be fired, and then arrested and tried, but who knows? It is possible that he did nothing wrong!
I don't believe that is the case. His lawyer has basically stated that he did give Plame up. Whether that is the result of his incompetence (doubtful) or as a result of an act of political retaliation (almost certainly) he has done a lot wrong. He has endangered lives, damaged the ability of our intelligence agencies to defend the country and cost millions of tax dollars. Regardless of whether it was the result of incompetence he should at the very least be fired.
 

Hoot

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Rove had a moment of stupidity. He leaked Plame's name for political revenge. Bush should keep his promise and fire Rove, but since Bush has yet to keep a single promise to the American people, I'm not holding my breath.
 

Alex

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faminedynasty said:
I don't believe that is the case. His lawyer has basically stated that he did give Plame up. Whether that is the result of his incompetence (doubtful) or as a result of an act of political retaliation (almost certainly) he has done a lot wrong. He has endangered lives, damaged the ability of our intelligence agencies to defend the country and cost millions of tax dollars. Regardless of whether it was the result of incompetence he should at the very least be fired.
Rove abused his access to classified information. He admitted to his lawyer that he identified the agent as Wilson's wife knowing that would be unbearable pressure on Wilson's family. He should be fired, removed from classified information access, arrested, tried, and put in prison.
 

faminedynasty

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Hoot said:
He leaked Plame's name for political revenge. Bush should keep his promise and fire Rove, but since Bush has yet to keep a single promise to the American people, I'm not holding my breath.
Agreed. But keep in mind, Bush has not been cleared of direct involvement himself. And if a scandal goes all the way up to Rove, that's close to Bush. Some may argue above.
Alex said:
Rove abused his access to classified information. He admitted to his lawyer that he identified the agent as Wilson's wife knowing that would be unbearable pressure on Wilson's family. He should be fired, removed from classified information access, arrested, tried, and put in prison.
Agreed entirely.
 

ncallaway

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Hoot said:
Rove had a moment of stupidity. He leaked Plame's name for political revenge. Bush should keep his promise and fire Rove, but since Bush has yet to keep a single promise to the American people, I'm not holding my breath.
If Bush's credibility starts to get seriously damaged, I believe he'll fire whoever and whatever he has to, to keep his "good name". Of course, this kind of pressure won't come until something big enough happens that of the conservatives start questioning his decisions (I'm talking about the conservatives that never split with the president. The ones that tend not to think independantly).
 

Nemo

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Karl Rove should be awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom for his dirty tricks.
 

Alex

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Nemo said:
Karl Rove should be awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom for his dirty tricks.
Based on what? Back this up.
 

Nemo

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Ask President George W. Bush's daddy, former President George H.W. Bush, why he fired Karl Rove.
 

Simon W. Moon

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alex said:
Based on what? Back this up.
I think this is a reference to George Tenet's medal that has been characterized as being given for his "slam dunk" statement about Iraq's WMD.
 

Nemo

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What - Pappy Bush not a good enough reference? Let's add his mentor, "Dirty Trickster" Donald Segretti of Watergate fame, to Karl's curriculum vitae.
 

IValueFreedom

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As there is an ongoing investigation combined with reporter(s) concealing their sources, the general public has limited information. As such, simple logic and reasoning maxamizing the info availiable will provide the most educated guess as to Rove's culpability in the situation.

After doing some reading, I am likely to lean that Rove was involved in the leak on some level, although I would not say this to 100% certainty as I do not posess all the facts or more importantly, the truth.

But as I said above, I believe (at this point at least) that he was involve by the order of the events.

-First, Bush stated in his State of the Union address in 2003 that according to British intelligence, Iraq was trying to aquire nuclear materials (uranium) from the African county, Niger. Bush used this as a key aspect to Iraq's attempt to gain WMD's and thus reasoning (although not according to most just war theoriests) for an invasion.

-Upon hearing this, former U.S. Ambassador Wilson, who had extrensive dealings with both Iraq and Niger, was sent to investigate whether this was a valid claim.

-Wilson then reports that although he can not decisively determine that it is not true, he finds no evidence of it happening and highly unlikely it did. Please keep in mind this is one of the foremost U.S. government experts on these countries.

-Wilson writes into the New York Times, stating that it is highly unlikely of any sort of dealings between Niger and Iraq as for nuclear materials, and then goes on to say the he believes that Bush and his administration has skewed information to furthur legitimize the war on Iraq.

-Three days later, plame was exposed as a CIA agent (keep in mind she had covert status at that time), severely damaging her career and personal life (many of her friends were mad to have never known she worked for the CIA, and to learn like this strained many friendships). The reporter cited two senior white house officials.

-CIA Director along with Bush vowed to find who exposed plame and kick them out of the white house.

-The two reporters refused to identify their sources.

-Rove denies having anything to do with it

SKIP AHEAD

-One of the reporters is sentenced to prison for not giving names.

-Cooper, the other reporter, is ordered to hand over the names to prevent jail by his editor-in-cheif who had collected his private emails containing the names and was going to turn them over.

-Karl Rove is named as one of the persons who tiped her name.

-Rove denies the claim that he ever gave her name.

-Bush makes a stand stating he will let the investigation take place, he is questioned (tho not under oath).

-In an interview with TIME, Cooper says that Rove never said her Plame's name, rather said "Ambassador Wilson's Wife."

-Wilson goes to the press saying that is the same thing, she has numerous names, including Mrs. Joseph Wilson.

-Rove changes his stance to he never leaked it to the press because he learned it from a reporter, and thought it was common knowledge.

-When asked who told him Plame was a CIA agent, Rove stated that he could not remember.

-Bush changes his stance from whoever leaked her name is out of the white house to whoever is crimally guilty will be out.

-On the day that both Bush changes his mind and he, Rove and chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee (R) are spoted in a "private" meeting that morning, Bush in that afternoon decides to announce his supreme court nominee Roberts.

-An official document with an "S" at the top (meaning sensitive material) is exposed that Rove saw stating Plame as a CIA agent.

-Director of the CIA states that it is policy that any document with an "S" at the top is to be considered confidential and illegal divulge the information.

____________________________________________________

With these events in this order, it is quite difficult to think that there was nothing "shady" happening. These events and responses from the white house appear to be the same tactics of culpable individuals attempting to wiggle out of being caught, building up to announcing the supreme court nominee to cover bad media press.

*Please do not think that I feel that Bush did not already have his mind made up on Judge Roberts. He had interviewed him the Friday before, so that is entirely possible, even probable. All I am saying is that after a morning of going back on your word and then being caught in a shady meeting, Bush at 12:30 decided to offer the position. I have no doubts that the administration realized that there would be a night full of bad press ahead of them, with difficult questions, so they decided to speed up the process to have the media focus on something else.

Three key facts support this allegation.

-Bush didn't call Roberts until 5 1/2 hours before going public with the announcement.
-Bush decided to have it a primetime announcement rather than keep it in the white house press room.
-Sandra Day O'Connor was not informed that the president had selected a candidate until she heard it on her car radio in Spokane, Washington (The white house did attempt to call her beforehand, but she didn't have cell phone reception, so they left her a message).


All in all.... Karl Rove = Culpable

He should be let go from the administration. Although she wasn't placed in any credible danger from having her name leaked, defaming her in order to hurt her husband is completely unacceptable and an abuse of power.
 

cnredd

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Here's how the post starts...

IValueFreedom said:
As there is an ongoing investigation combined with reporter(s) concealing their sources, the general public has limited information. As such, simple logic and reasoning maxamizing the info availiable will provide the most educated guess as to Rove's culpability in the situation.
And here's how it ends...

IValueFreedom said:
All in all.... Karl Rove = Culpable

He should be let go from the administration. Although she wasn't placed in any credible danger from having her name leaked, defaming her in order to hurt her husband is completely unacceptable and an abuse of power.
You say the public has limited information, and then go on to convict Rove only using said limited information. Why even have an investigation when they could've just asked you?

I could go into the details of your thought process(like saying she wasn't put in any credible danger when a letter from the CIA says otherwise), but I just got done with a post on another thread that took me over an hour to assemble and my brain is pretty fried; so I'll just say my standard opinion I've been using on this thread...I reserve my right to judge when all of the facts are out and the investigation is over...anything done before that, including the post I've responded to, is just conjecture and speculation. If he did something wrong, fire him on the spot ...if he didn't...request apologies from those who've slung his name through the mud.
 

Nemo

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"Talking Points" are lies spread to conceal the truth.
 

Navy Pride

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DeMaxx said:
should BUsh fire Rove for leaking information about a CIA agent?

Hell no, last time I looked your innocent in this country until proven guilty although it seems Liberals would like it the other way.....
 

IValueFreedom

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You just like to argue don't you cnredd?

I made numerous attempts to show that this is tenative to the amount of information the general public posesses. I am not the person to say if he is guilty or not, but I will state that with the information and order of events, these actions taken by the administration do not appear to be those of innocent individuals. Therefore, with the information presented at this point, I would lean that Karl Rove is to some degree culpable.

You even posted an excerpt that states this...

"As such, simple logic and reasoning maxamizing the info availiable will provide the most educated guess as to Rove's culpability in the situation."

Key words to you - "MOST EDUCATED GUESS"

Get off your high horse.
 

IValueFreedom

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Navy Pride said:
Hell no, last time I looked your innocent in this country until proven guilty although it seems Liberals would like it the other way.....

Well, the potential problem with that that I see are that some rules do not apply to these people. As an agent of the government, Karl Rove is immune to certain legal action if it is found that he was working within his job description. As such, he may have slipped through the legal cracks on this one. The law are not specific and the past precidence for cases like this are not completely the same. There is some legal wigggle room for Rove. As such, he may be culpable yet not found guilty.

My guess (I am not a lawyer) is that her best action is to take sue Rove personally so that it will force all the information to surface and get him to testify under oath. But it might not even make it to court because of the reasons stated above.

This is a tricky situation.

So, I feel it is 100% legit to demand his resignation if he had leaked her identification.
 

ncallaway

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Navy Pride said:
Hell no, last time I looked your innocent in this country until proven guilty although it seems Liberals would like it the other way.....
Very few people, none that I've seen are actually suggesting that Bush should fire Rove now. We (I suppose the "Liberals" you refer to), like you, aren't demanding that action should be taken immediately (I have seen some people go as far as suggest something like an administrative leave, so I guess by "action" I mean firing Rove). I think just about everyone is willing to wait for the investigation to finish before we expect any real action to be taken.

Also, making broad generalizations about "Liberals" or "Conservatives" makes you look somewhat ignorant. It doesn't add to the debate in any way, and just shows how you're totally incapable of differentiating extremists from the (usually much larger) centrists of a group of people.
 

IValueFreedom

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well said ncallaway

but I would demand Rove's resignation right now...

Just not for this scandal ;)
he's done plenty in his past to have been dropped years ago :\
 
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