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Time To Take the Next Step

rickc

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Putin has stepped over the line. It is time for the U.S. and it's allies to call Putin's bluff.

Notify him we are going to take control of Ukrainian airspace and begin to annihilate his forces if he doesn't begin a withdrawal immediately.

Notify him if he retaliate's with nuclear weapons his country will be destroyed.

Force is the only thing he understands!
 

tacomancer

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Putin has stepped over the line. It is time for the U.S. and it's allies to call Putin's bluff.

Notify him we are going to take control of Ukrainian airspace and begin to annihilate his forces if he doesn't begin a withdrawal immediately.

Notify him if he retaliate's with nuclear weapons his country will be destroyed.

Force is the only thing he understands!
I am coming more and more to the conclusion that if Putin is insane, he's gonna use nukes, its just a matter of time. If hes not insane, then its a bluff.

So, if he uses nukes, that's is just what's going to happen anyway and that does give the US the space to start being a bit more bold.
 

BirdinHand

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No.


Support Ukraine? Yes.

Actually get involved? No.
 

BirdinHand

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Notify him if he retaliate's with nuclear weapons his country will be destroyed.
This is what leads to MAD.

Mutually assured destruction.

I’m sorry, but I don’t feel like dying or living in a nuclear wasteland over Ukraine and I’m sure most other Americans with half a brain feel the same way.
 

Craig234

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We don't need to be playing chicken with nuclear war. We should understand that Putin's whole priority for being in office is to try to return Russia to previous glory - he called the end of the USSR the worst event of the 20th century - and his anger over NATO expanding east has been building for decades. We need to be looking for a way out of this without nuclear war, not escalating to it.
 

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Putin has stepped over the line. It is time for the U.S. and it's allies to call Putin's bluff.

Notify him we are going to take control of Ukrainian airspace and begin to annihilate his forces if he doesn't begin a withdrawal immediately.

Notify him if he retaliate's with nuclear weapons his country will be destroyed.

Force is the only thing he understands!
Starting a nuclear war is complete idiocy. Putin is losing in Ukraine, so its better to keep indirectly supporting the Ukrainians. A war like this will take months, so this ADD style decision making is just stupid.
 

Torus34

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Putin has stepped over the line. It is time for the U.S. and it's allies to call Putin's bluff.

Notify him we are going to take control of Ukrainian airspace and begin to annihilate his forces if he doesn't begin a withdrawal immediately.

Notify him if he retaliate's [sic] with nuclear weapons his country will be destroyed.

Force is the only thing he understands!

Hi, rickc!

There exists the possibility, and I suspect that neither of us can place an accurate estimate of its probability, that President Vladimir Putin is willing to take his entire nation down in flames before stepping away from his present position of power.

Again, neither of us knows with certainty that an attempt to physically establish a 'no fly zone' in Ukraine's air space will not result in such an action by President Putin.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
 

The AntiDonald

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Hi, rickc!

There exists the possibility, and I suspect that neither of us can place an accurate estimate of its probability, that President Vladimir Putin is willing to take his entire nation down in flames before stepping away from his present position of power.

Again, neither of us knows with certainty that an attempt to physically establish a 'no fly zone' in Ukraine's air space will not result in such an action by President Putin.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
I agree with you but can't get past the fact that simply because Putin has nukes, we are going to sit back and watch the destruction and pain inflicted on Ukrainians. Frankly, I don't think Putin really cares about all the new sanctions. They don't affect him personally, at least not in the short term.

And then when Ukraine is totally destroyed, thousands needlessly killed, millions displaced, Putin goes back to business as usual? More needs to be done. I wish I knew exactly what that is.
 

Torus34

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I agree with you but can't get past the fact that simply because Putin has nukes, we are going to sit back and watch the destruction and pain inflicted on Ukrainians. Frankly, I don't think Putin really cares about all the new sanctions. They don't affect him personally, at least not in the short term.

And then when Ukraine is totally destroyed, thousands needlessly killed, millions displaced, Putin goes back to business as usual? More needs to be done. I wish I knew exactly what that is.

Hi, The AntiDonald!

It's not necessarily an either/or situation. Economic pressure is slowly being increased on Russia without taking military action other than the supplying of armament to the Ukrainian government. Care is being taken to avoid triggering a nuclear response. The goal is that Russia will solve the problem of sanctions without resorting to all-out war.

We may be in for a long wait. Consider how many years it took for sanctions to take effect in South Africa. [Ed.: And yes, that remains the sole example of the effective use of sanctions to date.]

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
 

tacomancer

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One route that nobody is talking about is UN peacekeepers enforcing a no fly zone.
 

rickc

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Putin is rich and has a cushy life. Even if he is bat shit crazy I don't believe he is suicidal.

he draws that nuclear weapon threat like a gun. I believe it is all a bluff.

What Patton said at the end of WWII

We may have been fighting the wrong enemy (Germany) all along. But while we're here (on the Soviet border), we should go after the bastards now, 'cause we're gonna have to fight 'em eventually."
 

Crovax

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We don't need to be playing chicken with nuclear war. We should understand that Putin's whole priority for being in office is to try to return Russia to previous glory - he called the end of the USSR the worst event of the 20th century - and his anger over NATO expanding east has been building for decades. We need to be looking for a way out of this without nuclear war, not escalating to it.

What a novel idea Neville
 

BirdinHand

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Putin is rich and has a cushy life. Even if he is bat shit crazy I don't believe he is suicidal.

he draws that nuclear weapon threat like a gun. I believe it is all a bluff.

What Patton said at the end of WWII

We may have been fighting the wrong enemy (Germany) all along. But while we're here (on the Soviet border), we should go after the bastards now, 'cause we're gonna have to fight 'em eventually."
Well, I’m also not apt to think that people that draw a gun are “bluffing”.

We aren’t fighting Russia. “We” (as in the United States) do not have a dog in this fight. We are supporting a sovereign nation. We are not at war.

This is not WW2. The hope, for calmer heads, is that this does NOT become WW3.

Why do you want war?
 

The AntiDonald

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Hi, The AntiDonald!

It's not necessarily an either/or situation. Economic pressure is slowly being increased on Russia without taking military action other than the supplying of armament to the Ukrainian government. Care is being taken to avoid triggering a nuclear response. The goal is that Russia will solve the problem of sanctions without resorting to all-out war.

We may be in for a long wait. Consider how many years it took for sanctions to take effect in South Africa. [Ed.: And yes, that remains the sole example of the effective use of sanctions to date.]

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
We may be in for a long wait. But we can wait. The Ukrainians can't. They are being murdered daily. How does Putin justify attacking a nuclear power plant? He is clearly committing crimes against humanity and plenty of war crimes.

It would be one thing if Ukraine had done something to Russia to justify a military response. But Putin just wants the territory back and he's taking it. How can the rest of the world allow this?
 

justoneman

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Starting a nuclear war is complete idiocy. Putin is losing in Ukraine, so its better to keep indirectly supporting the Ukrainians. A war like this will take months, so this ADD style decision making is just stupid.
Losing? He is winning. I don't like it it's terrible but just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's not true. It's a war. It does take a couple of days. Everyday he takes more ground and more cities.
I agree with your wanting to avoid escalating into anything approaching a nuclear conflict. A no fly zone would be us entering the war. Bad idea.
 
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BirdinHand

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We may be in for a long wait. But we can wait. The Ukrainians can't. They are being murdered daily. How does Putin justify attacking a nuclear power plant? He is clearly committing crimes against humanity and plenty of war crimes.

It would be one thing if Ukraine had done something to Russia to justify a military response. But Putin just wants the territory back and he's taking it. How can the rest of the world allow this?
Because no one wants a world war.

No one wants nukes flying.

It’s really as simple as that.
 

Cardinal

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How is a no fly zone or any other form of direct military engagement still a topic of conversation?
 

rickc

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We may be in for a long wait. But we can wait. The Ukrainians can't. They are being murdered daily. How does Putin justify attacking a nuclear power plant? He is clearly committing crimes against humanity and plenty of war crimes.

It would be one thing if Ukraine had done something to Russia to justify a military response. But Putin just wants the territory back and he's taking it. How can the rest of the world allow this?

The killing of innocent women and children and shelling a nuclear power plant is stepping over the line.

Sure they will try Putin at the Hauge. But he won't be there. And that certainly isn't doing anything to help the Ukrainians now.

I am sure NATO has enough evidence of human rights violations to justify stepping in.
 

BirdinHand

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The killing of innocent women and children and shelling a nuclear power plant is stepping over the line.

Sure they will try Putin at the Hauge. But he won't be there. And that certainly isn't doing anything to help the Ukrainians now.

I am sure NATO has enough evidence of human rights violations to justify stepping in.
No.


You realize that if nuclear weapons fly - there will be MORE women and children dead, right?

And that a nuclear power plant being shelled will look like Saturday afternoon at the playground in comparison, right?
 

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I posted right when this all started but I wanted to see who changed their minds as the pictures started rolling in.
 

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It shouldn’t be.

This is one of those times where having a really old President is a plus. Really old people lived through the Cold War, know the rules of the Cold War, and therefore know how to navigate Russian/Western crises without blowing up the planet. People born after the collapse of the Soviet Union didn’t learn all the old rules, don’t know how they apply here, and therefore are making a bunch of epically terrible suggestions.
 

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Losing? He is winning. I don't like it it's terrible but just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's not true. It's a war. It does take a couple of days. Everyday he takes more ground and more cities.
He is not winning. He comes out of the a world Pariah as nobody but hardcore, Russia-cons, Putinites believe his denazification or fear of NATO nonsense.

"I have to attack in defense". Ya sure Vlad.

This is a straight up Hitleresk territory and asset grab of the most brutal sort. Ultimately Putin will lose no matter how much territory he takes in Ukraine. He won't be able to hold the territory he takes. The west will continue to ratchet up the sanctions. He ends up a world renowned Pariah on the scale of Hitler and untimely his own people will take him down. This is going to be the end of Putin just as 1968 and Czechoslovakia spelled the eventual end of the Soviet Union. I think it happens faster this time given how quickly and effectively the world communicates. Oh and he won't be able to build a new iron curtain keeping information from the west our of Russia. A new iron curtain will be even more porous than Donnie's Great Wall of STUPID.
 

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Putin has stepped over the line. It is time for the U.S. and it's allies to call Putin's bluff.

Notify him we are going to take control of Ukrainian airspace and begin to annihilate his forces if he doesn't begin a withdrawal immediately.

Notify him if he retaliate's with nuclear weapons his country will be destroyed.

Force is the only thing he understands!

His country would be destroyed, but he would destroy our country too.
 
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