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Thoughts on the purpose of government

that does not refute his correct claim that the USC contains no such language

"The constitution does not permit states to unilaterally secede."

There are only two ways a state can secede.

1 revolution

2 consent of ALL OTHER STATES IN THE UNION

The south tried revolution, they failed, they never left the union.

So yes, the constitution does permit secession, but secession is near impossible to achieve and the kind of secession being suggested by some members here is in fact, unconstitutional.
 
"The constitution does not permit states to unilaterally secede."

There are only two ways a state can secede.

1 revolution

2 consent of ALL OTHER STATES IN THE UNION

The south tried revolution, they failed, they never left the union.

So yes, the constitution does permit secession, but secession is near impossible to achieve and the kind of secession being suggested by some members here is in fact, unconstitutional.

states should be allowed to leave if they wish. it is keeping with the entire foundation of the constitution and the federal government.

you have to understand that our nation's history is full of examples of the justices acting like politicians rather than honest umpires calling the rules properly
 
states should be allowed to leave if they wish. it is keeping with the entire foundation of the constitution and the federal government.

you have to understand that our nation's history is full of examples of the justices acting like politicians rather than honest umpires calling the rules properly

Cop out.

Texas should have thought twice before entering the perpetual and more perfect union.

The Supreme Court agrees with me and for you to cop out and say "well political!!!" Is weak. Also, last I checked, the ones with the most political attitudes were the three who dissented.
 
Cop out.

Texas should have thought twice before entering the perpetual and more perfect union.

The Supreme Court agrees with me and for you to cop out and say "well political!!!" Is weak. Also, last I checked, the ones with the most political attitudes were the three who dissented.

so it will be easy for you to cite the words in the constitution that says states cannot leave a club they voluntarily joined

go for it. I realize I have the advantage of actually having a law degree but I will be back later today (like the morning) so I will give you 10 hours to find the language.

While we realize that the USC has the final say we also note that the USC has often clearly blown the call

(Just like TV replays show baseball umpires calling a runner out when the first baseman's foot was not actually on the plate etc)

the umpire call stands -the runner is "out" but we who see the replay can honestly claim that the umpire was wrong and under the rules, the runner should not have been out
 
go for it. I realize I have the advantage of actually having a law degree but I will be back later today (like the morning) so I will give you 10 hours to find the language.

I don't care if you have a law degree, you aren't and never will be a SCOTUS judge, and therefor, your say means nothing on this matter.

It is decided.

Outside of a successful revolution or consent of every other state, the constitution does not permit secession from the union.

I'm done repeating, so you go on and think about that.
 
Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Supreme Court disagrees with you.

"The constitution does not permit states to unilaterally secede from the union."

"Texas was always part of the union despite joining the confederate states."

Your opinion means nothing.

Nothing. It means this much in terms of authority :monkey:2rofll::hitsfan::blowup:

I'm not sharing my opinion. I am simply stating the fact that there is no language in the constitution that forbids any state from seceding. You have, as yet, failed to falsify my factual claim.
 
states should be allowed to leave if they wish. it is keeping with the entire foundation of the constitution and the federal government.

you have to understand that our nation's history is full of examples of the justices acting like politicians rather than honest umpires calling the rules properly

I agree with what you're saying, but the practical aspects of secession today would make it impossible, or at least very damn stoopid, rather like Scotland's efforts lately.
 
Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Supreme Court disagrees with you.

"The constitution does not permit states to unilaterally secede from the union."

"Texas was always part of the union despite joining the confederate states."

Your opinion means nothing.

Nothing. It means this much in terms of authority :monkey:2rofll::hitsfan::blowup:

His point is that it does not FORBID secession.
 
His point is that it does not FORBID secession.

I acknowledged that afterwards, but it certainly did not allow the secession that say Texas tried (unilateral secession). You need a successful revolution or consent of every other state, otherwise, you're not leaving the union.
 
I acknowledged that afterwards, but it certainly did not allow the secession that say Texas tried (unilateral secession)

The federal government, not the constitution, forbid secession.
 
From the Declaration of Independence:



"Among these:" This is not a definitive list, but simply a few examples, however....



Not "among these" purposes of government, this is the purpose of government, period.


--

and we need to be careful what "just powers" we allow government to have. The government, protector of liberty, has the potential for becoming its biggest enemy.



When the government becomes destructive, not if the government becomes destructive.

Has the government become destructive of its own and only purpose for existing at all? If so, then it's time to abolish it and start over.

Or, maybe we can get by with simply staging a revolution at the ballot box and starting over with the same institutions, but different people.

What do you think?

Or, is liberty already secure?



Interesting, as I was just discussing the United States Constitution with a Canadian who is as clueless about the US system as most Americans are about ours. And the need to make clear the Declaration of Independence is a document with no standing in law.

With that, as the USC has been a life long fascination with me, it truly is one of, if not the finest legal document in the history of mankind, those men laid the foundation for the most powerful nation on earth with a few pages, where Obama couldn't provide health care without 1,100 pages of "tortured language".

That is not to say it is not flawed.

First, in my discussions last evening, it had to be made clear that in no way did any of the founding fathers see what the US has become, it's system and the results, in fact I am pretty sure Ben and Thomas and co would be raising $ for cannon and musket to assault congress and the White House with an aim to hang a few lobbyists.

But I wonder if we are not limiting a debate on "what is the purpose of government" to one document and one nation? Where America has "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as the only stated intent, what if we add "peace, order and good government"? What do we have?

The first word raises a major **** storm about the streets of Ferguson and calls for some 'splainin', order suggests what's going on in congress is close to or should be illegal.,....and well, "good" is in the mind of the individual but I suspect the nation can come together and agree you have not been getting.
 
Interesting, as I was just discussing the United States Constitution with a Canadian who is as clueless about the US system as most Americans are about ours. And the need to make clear the Declaration of Independence is a document with no standing in law.

With that, as the USC has been a life long fascination with me, it truly is one of, if not the finest legal document in the history of mankind, those men laid the foundation for the most powerful nation on earth with a few pages, where Obama couldn't provide health care without 1,100 pages of "tortured language".

That is not to say it is not flawed.

First, in my discussions last evening, it had to be made clear that in no way did any of the founding fathers see what the US has become, it's system and the results, in fact I am pretty sure Ben and Thomas and co would be raising $ for cannon and musket to assault congress and the White House with an aim to hang a few lobbyists.

But I wonder if we are not limiting a debate on "what is the purpose of government" to one document and one nation? Where America has "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as the only stated intent, what if we add "peace, order and good government"? What do we have?

The first word raises a major **** storm about the streets of Ferguson and calls for some 'splainin', order suggests what's going on in congress is close to or should be illegal.,....and well, "good" is in the mind of the individual but I suspect the nation can come together and agree you have not been getting.

1. I've had the same thought about not only the ACA, but all of the modern legislation: How is it that it used to be possible to say so much with so few words, and now it takes a deluge of words to say very little? Maybe our leaders need to be schooled in the art of concise and clear writing.

2. Right on about the way Ben and Co would see government today.

3. The purpose of government can't be generalized to the world, or can it? Trying to impose a government that values rights and liberty in the middle East, for example, has proven a tad difficult. It's a major difference in culture.

4. Looking at Canada vs the US, the differences in culture are not so great. I think what you're calling "peace, order, and good government" is much the same thing as protecting our liberty. Surely, you're not advocating peace and order by force of arms against an unwilling populace, as that would be more Middle East than Canadian.

Looking at Ferguson, as an example, the purpose of government is to protect liberty, the liberty of the peaceful citizens to go about their business without having to be afraid, and the liberty of business owners to not have their property destroyed by angry mobs. The threat to liberty in that case is the angry mob, and not the government.
 
Liberty is a process, not an end. The DOI isn't law, so you don't have the right of secession* much less the right of revolution.

*Texas v. White, 1869.

the securing of rights is the ......end of government.

the DOI was made non - positive law..mar 1878, and is U.S.CODE, and used in u.s. enabling laws.

the founders state in the constitutional convention, that states can secede from the union..may 31st 1787.

if we am going to have a revolution, then government will have no say so in the matter.
 
the securing of rights is the ......end of government.

the DOI was made non - positive law..mar 1878, and is U.S.CODE, and used in u.s. enabling laws.

the founders state in the constitutional convention, that states can secede from the union..may 31st 1787.

if we am going to have a revolution, then government will have no say so in the matter.

The civil war said that they can not secede.
 
Oh, that's well known.

Must be Obama's fault.

sorry dittohead i don't play that game, Presidents long before Obama have not followed the Constitution.

and every party who's president sets the polices of the nation, suffers the most criticism because they are the ones who holds the reins of power for that 4 yr term.

if in 2016 a republican is elected President, then he will be heavily criticized more then the democrats......that's the way things work.
 
sorry dittohead i don't play that game, Presidents long before Obama have not followed the Constitution.

and every party who's president sets the polices of the nation, suffers the most criticism because they are the ones who holds the reins of power for that 4 yr term.

if in 2016 a republican is elected President, then he will be heavily criticized more then the democrats......that's the way things work.

Yes, it is.

Right now, the mantra is that Obama is "shredding the Constitution."
 
Yes, it is.

Right now, the mantra is that Obama is "shredding the Constitution."

well hes not following the Constitution, but neither did bush or others for that matter.

however i don't never believe because one President didn't do it, its OK for another not to do it.
 
1. I've had the same thought about not only the ACA, but all of the modern legislation: How is it that it used to be possible to say so much with so few words, and now it takes a deluge of words to say very little? Maybe our leaders need to be schooled in the art of concise and clear writing.

2. Right on about the way Ben and Co would see government today.

3. The purpose of government can't be generalized to the world, or can it? Trying to impose a government that values rights and liberty in the middle East, for example, has proven a tad difficult. It's a major difference in culture.

4. Looking at Canada vs the US, the differences in culture are not so great. I think what you're calling "peace, order, and good government" is much the same thing as protecting our liberty. Surely, you're not advocating peace and order by force of arms against an unwilling populace, as that would be more Middle East than Canadian.

Looking at Ferguson, as an example, the purpose of government is to protect liberty, the liberty of the peaceful citizens to go about their business without having to be afraid, and the liberty of business owners to not have their property destroyed by angry mobs. The threat to liberty in that case is the angry mob, and not the government.



3. Not really, but certainly in types of governments. Clearly, as in China, the people do not want democracy. But the concepts of what is democracy can be incorporated, once again just as society develops, so should government. No one I know, especially lawyers, would agree that the USC is faultless; in the development of the Canadian constitution adopted more than 200 years later, the authors tried to eliminate those errors, especially the aspect of law written by the courts.

4. The same in a general sense, but in expression, perhaps, shows the subtle differences in our cultures.

Surely, you're not advocating peace and order by force of arms against an unwilling populace, as that would be more Middle East than Canadian.

The opposite in fact. Troops in the streets are in violation of the peace. The Ferguson riots are a perfect example of the difference in cultures; the Vancouver Stanley Cup riot it is a good comparison if we leave out the motives. The VPD was faulted for not being prepared and not responding quickly enough, and had to call in the RCMP for back up. But it was "minimum force" to quell the crowd and allow firefighters into the downtown core and make arrests. Few heads were beaten, no SWAT, no shooting.

Somewhere in there is the "best" solution, how to be better prepared without inciting, how to regain the peace without becoming something that looks like it belongs ion Iraq. Then again, maybe that IS the difference in our cultures, the only time in modern history troops have been deployed against unarmed civilians was in the 1970 FLQ crisis, and that, isn't likely to ever be repeated the then Solicitor General remains an icon of hatred in many areas and he's been dead for 20 years.
 
3. Not really, but certainly in types of governments. Clearly, as in China, the people do not want democracy. But the concepts of what is democracy can be incorporated, once again just as society develops, so should government. No one I know, especially lawyers, would agree that the USC is faultless; in the development of the Canadian constitution adopted more than 200 years later, the authors tried to eliminate those errors, especially the aspect of law written by the courts.

4. The same in a general sense, but in expression, perhaps, shows the subtle differences in our cultures.



The opposite in fact. Troops in the streets are in violation of the peace. The Ferguson riots are a perfect example of the difference in cultures; the Vancouver Stanley Cup riot it is a good comparison if we leave out the motives. The VPD was faulted for not being prepared and not responding quickly enough, and had to call in the RCMP for back up. But it was "minimum force" to quell the crowd and allow firefighters into the downtown core and make arrests. Few heads were beaten, no SWAT, no shooting.

Somewhere in there is the "best" solution, how to be better prepared without inciting, how to regain the peace without becoming something that looks like it belongs ion Iraq. Then again, maybe that IS the difference in our cultures, the only time in modern history troops have been deployed against unarmed civilians was in the 1970 FLQ crisis, and that, isn't likely to ever be repeated the then Solicitor General remains an icon of hatred in many areas and he's been dead for 20 years.

One difference we saw in Ferguson as an example is the existence of a black community that feels, sometimes with good reason, that they're not being treated fairly by the police and have created an adversarial relationship with them.
 
One difference we saw in Ferguson as an example is the existence of a black community that feels, sometimes with good reason, that they're not being treated fairly by the police and have created an adversarial relationship with them.

The Thug culture within the black community you mean. Decent black people don't seem to have any issues.
 
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