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Here are just a few scriptures that attest to you erroneous assertions. Paul's writings are as much TRUTH as all of the bible. You Sir are in left field.UtahBill said:Sorry, we make decisions with our brains. The heart has nothing to do with it. Back in the old days it might have been believed that the heart has power to influence, but the heart is connected to the brain. Attempts by modern religious leaders to distort the true message of Christ by rewriting the scriptures again and again are only leading to more confusion. People of even less than average intellect will eventually reject that. It happened in England and it can happen here.
Most protestant churches use the words of Paul far more than the actual teachings of Christ. His teachings are the foundation of Christianity, not Pauls.
And again, it is being done for vain reasons. The depths of hell will be littered with wannabe preachers and pastors who knowingly led their flocks in the path of destruction.
Well, at least I am in the ball park. Paul's writings are mostly letters to the churches he founded in the name of Christ. They are consistently taken out of context and used as though they have the same importance as the teachings of Jesus himself. That is not so and any preacher saying so has to accept that every word in the Bible is as important and relevant to us today as are the words of Christ. You don't by any chance live according to the Old Testament teachings, do you?Apostle13 said:Here are just a few scriptures that attest to you erroneous assertions. Paul's writings are as much TRUTH as all of the bible. You Sir are in left field.
Romans 10: 9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
2 Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow which God gives is the cause of salvation through a change of heart, in which there is no reason for grief: but the sorrow of the world is a cause of death. (BBE)
Ephesians 4:21-24
Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Apostle13 said:It doesn't.
By what authority/right have you that you could even begin to judge me?
If I say I am a preacher then I make myself out to be nothing as I am considered among the least in the Kingdom of Heaven... As an apostle, lesser still. The Kingdom of God is within me. The blinders are upon you my friend as mine have long been removed.
Apostle13 said:Fair enough.
We are all different. I am most certainly no exception. Your soul is your own responsibility, as is mine, my own. As a child I knew the truth and even still, I strayed far from it as a young adult. In all my years astray I never denied God nor His Son (The Truth). Neither did I return to Him of my own free will... Instead, I just went my own way, in my own strength. When suddenly my strength was gone and death was knocking down my door. Then once again The Truth came to Life within me.
Because He Lives! I Live also!
Jesus lived and DIED over 2000 years ago. He is dead, same as Mohammed, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard and quite a few other 'truth-seers'.Apostle13 said:Jesus is alive.
Mohamed is dead.
Generalized religion is not a premise for debate.
Neither am I religious.
I can't see it even after three re-reads. Since we are not debating in person maybe you could throw in some sorta indicator..?tecoyah said:Actually...mine was sarcasm...though you seem to have missed it.
Hardly...Rather defending your own judgment of me...In as follows;Guess you were too busy Judging me to notice.
tecoyah said:You may be a preacher....but you are far from God.
My intent was to get the very reaction you replyed with.....as it is somewhat typical.
Filthy apostate...(sarcasm)PS. I was a christian for over 20 yrs.....still have those blinders somewhere....junk drawer I think.
ngdawg said:I am going to go out on a limb here and guess you were an addict of some sort. Either through AA or some sort of intervention, you 'found' Jesus. So you haven't erased any addiction-you just exchanged one for another, which is typical of those who have a dependency, especially to a chemical such as alcohol or narcotics. In the spirit of the thread's point, you use Jesus and God as your crutch to keep you 'saved' from the ravages of whatever was killing you.(Your blinders will, of course, deny this).
This 'truth' is merely your own belief-trying to tell others it's THE only truth is pompous, arrogant and quite erroneous.
Jesus lived and DIED over 2000 years ago. He is dead, same as Mohammed, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard and quite a few other 'truth-seers'.
If you're not 'religious', I don't know who is-
re·li·gious (rĭ-lĭj'əs)
adj.
Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.
Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.
Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.
I suppose being devoutly religious is better than being dependent on a killing vice, but when you start hammering others with your own 'truth', you do two things: 1) you only get those weak enough and dull enough to follow anything to heed you, while those that do not wish to be hammered will just walk away and 2) you close yourself off to the diversities and knowledge one can acquire. In other words, you're wearing blinders.
Don't have one, Preacher.(and I did say I was guessing) Having associated with enough alkies and the like, you fit the profile. Unless of course, your car was going over a cliff and you prayed it wouldn't explode into flames.....:mrgreen:Apostle13 said:Well aren't you the amateur psycho-analyst. Wow you got all that just reading a few of my posts.
Keep your day job!
Apostle13 said:I can't see it even after three re-reads. Since we are not debating in person maybe you could throw in some sorta indicator..?
If needed....so be it.(note sarcasm)
Hardly...Rather defending your own judgment of me...In as follows;
So...did I mean you are Far away from God...or
That you are Not God? you tell me
Now you are contradicting your own sarcasm defence..? Which is it sarcasm or willful intent for to provoke..?
Surely....you are joking, in that you do not see the use of sarcasm as a means to provoke a response. One would think as a preacher....you would have a somewhat more capable grasp of human psychology.(note sarcasm)
Had I recognized sarcasm I would have likely flipped it back at ya, as that is my style.
it would be a welcome respite from that which you have put forward thus far
Will you then otherwise be hypercritical as to the response you instead received..?
Hardly....if anything I would allow for a bit more respect...which you could sorely use about now(no sarcasm intended)
Are you sure you are not trying to back-peddle your initial response..?
Nevertheless, I take you at your word.
Yes....I am quite sure.
Filthy apostate...(sarcasm)
Though I'm saddened by your chosen compromise. I'm encouraged that you've not abandoned the faith.tecoyah said:And by the way....I did not abandon the faith.....I simply outgrew it. Its still there, but it is far less lonely now..
No...Really I missed it. My bad. Had I not you would have incurred a more likely different response...Who knows what..?Surely....you are joking, in that you do not see the use of sarcasm as a means to provoke a response. One would think as a preacher....you would have a somewhat more capable grasp of human psychology.(note sarcasm)
I am far from lonely, and intellect is overrated. Pride in intellect is a stumbling block.Enjoy the solitude, and be careful who you decide to challenge mentally.
Oh well... I guess you told me.ngdawg said:Don't have one, Preacher.(and I did say I was guessing) Having associated with enough alkies and the like, you fit the profile. Unless of course, your car was going over a cliff and you prayed it wouldn't explode into flames.....:mrgreen:
Point is, you are addicted to your belief and try to force it on others. Even never being in those situations, you may as well have been. And if whatever 'almost killed' you was a medical condition, "God" had nothing to do with your 'healing'. Yet you persist in insisting to others which comes back to the core point-using God's name for personal reasons and excuses.
I take note of the fact that you can not dispute the other opinions.
With the general understanding of what their religion was. And they too used the name of God for their actions. If you aren't using the term religious because you don't want to be thought of as in the same class as a terrorist, you might find you are offbase there. Only totally close-minded bigots could even try to make that comparison.Apostle13 said:Oh well... I guess you told me.
1. Your method of profiling is flawed by generalization and pre-conceived ideals.
2. I force nothing concerning my beliefs on nobody. Simply sharing them, as are they, as are you... Addicted..? What an absurdity.
3. God had everything to do with my healing and in is much as you know he did not, all the more, I know that he did.
Therefore, if I were to persist to insist could it not be that I've all good reason. What gain have I that I should lie concerning this... Or maybe I fit even another profile as well..? What just because I still bear the scars both mental and physical from my latest alien abduction.:roll:
One who is religious, by definition, it is a broad and generalized notion. If you've a belief and or system thereof then you are religious to whatever degree. This is why I say I am not, so as not to be cast in the lot by way of generalization. Guilt by association would likewise then be guilt by generalization. Even the terrorists were called religious.
As I am sure that is your observation and you are likely not alone. I am equally sure I am not arrogant... Neither alone.ngdawg said:But when you pontificate as you have and declare you are THE one who knows THE truth, as I stated, it becomes arrogance.
Doesn't make me wrong, doesn't make them right.However, just as you can proclaim to have the truth, another can proclaim you don't. Doesn't make you right, doesn't make them wrong.
UtahBill said:IN VAIN.....
I believe that nearly everyone has misunderstood that commandment. Most take it as not using God's name for cursing. I take it as taking the name of God upon you for vain reasons. That would be the televangelists who are always asking for money, the ones who try to use undue influence on the political system to take away our freedom to choose what we believe, and the ones who enrich themselves instead of following the commandments that were given by Jesus himself in the 4 gospels. They let the poor and hungry continue in their misery while they spend their time and money attacking and judging others who believe even only slightly differently than them.
A lot of Christians have distorted the beliefs so badly that the label "hypocrites" just don't do them justice. I think many of them are so selfish that they are close to being evil.....
Anyone want to defend them?
Apostle13 said:I prefer that I not have to continue defending my own personal character by way of you erroneous assumptions and categorical profiling based upon them. I've no history here with you prior, when suddenly you single me out for attack. While I should like first to admit I am not pleased by your vague/veiled attempts to discredit me...
I must secondly ask myself why..?
After a slight of ponderence, I am fully persuaded that the answer lies in the spiritual. Therefore, it is not fitting beyond what I have said already to begin to explain my resolve. Except to say, if one cannot equate spiritually, as part, the sum of all factors... The answer escapes them.
As I am sure that is your observation and you are likely not alone. I am equally sure I am not arrogant... Neither alone.
What because I choose that I no longer compromise conscience/conviction, but rather adhere myself in accordance to a biblical standard of living..?
(BTW New Testament UBill:2wave
Doesn't make me wrong, doesn't make them right.
ngdawg said:Sorry if you take opinions as attacks. If you don't want opinions, don't make such stereotypical remarks like those in that vague bio-you opened yourself up to scrutiny right then and there. Making the assertion that only you know some vague 'truth' and others do not, even twisting my final comment, point to an arrogance you have in believing only yours is a divine way. Many evangelists come across thusly as well.
The difference between your arrogance and mine is, I don't use a deity to justify mine. Even when wrong, I go only by the tangible in front of me. If you feel you are being discredited (wtf does that mean anyway?), again, your issue. Nothing I said 'discredited' anything. If any discrediting was done at all, it was in your denying that any living person had anything to do with your 'healing' and instead giving total credit to a doubtful deity and his 'offspring'. If I were to credit Zeus for everything in my life, you'd surely be 'correcting' me.
Back to the subject at hand. It truly bothers me when statements are made that 'God doesn't want this to happen' or 'God caused this to happen' as if the person was a hired spokesperson. I have seen it quite frequently in these forums and it amazes me how everyone who does so seems to 'know' firsthand and declaring that the rest of us are 'unknowing', then using Bible passages to prove their point, as if that was fact. Using the name of God to make a point is a copout. Saying you were on the brink of whatever and 'Jesus' or 'God' saved you is really a copout as it negates your own strengths, the support of those around you and, quite frankly is an insult to those and yourself. When one has to depend on deities for every thought and opinion, they are crutches, addictions, if you will and truly being used selfishly. It is one thing to say, ie; your children are gifts from God. It is quite another to say God makes you spank them or that he had them get good grades. He is not responsible for your actions. And it's really hypocritical of those who make the claim that they 'lost God' and only in 'finding him again' were they 'saved'. Maybe you didn't lose the guy, maybe he threw you out. Or, here's a thought-maybe just maybe one just makes some bad choices. On their own. And maybe, just maybe, they get smarter and make changes. On their own.
I in God's given strength, as I do walk by faith and not by sight.The difference between your arrogance and mine is, I don't use a deity to justify mine. Even when wrong, I go only by the tangible in front of me.
I did not say this, but rather;If you feel you are being discredited (wtf does that mean anyway?), again, your issue.
A large difference in having been actually discredited, and having only recognized attempts thereby. BTW http://www.answers.com/topic/discreditWhile I should like first to admit I am not pleased by your vague/veiled attempts to discredit me...
...And again you are generalizing. Stirring all who profess themselves Christians in the same pot. While at the same time you refuse in realizing/accepting my reason for reasoning as to why I prefer to detach myself from this broad definition that encompasses religion;ngdawg said:I never said you as in yourself(re:spanking, etc.)-you have some major issues of defense going here...read again.
Apostle13 said:One who is religious, by definition, it is a broad and generalized notion. If you've a belief and or system thereof then you are religious to whatever degree. This is why I say I am not, so as not to be cast in the lot by way of generalization. Guilt by association would likewise then be guilt by generalization. Even the terrorists were called religious.
In as much as 911 is an extremest example of Islam. Ours as Christians are The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch hunts, Hitler was a Christian. I am sure there are more but surely you get the drift..? All done under the guise of christianity, thus religion.ngdawg said:With the general understanding of what their religion was. And they too used the name of God for their actions. If you aren't using the term religious because you don't want to be thought of as in the same class as a terrorist, you might find you are offbase there. Only totally close-minded bigots could even try to make that comparison.
Fair enough... Just not my personal inclination.ngdawg said:Anyone here, including myself, who attempts to use their own experiences pertaining to the debate they are in, opens themselves up to scrutiny.
I should like to admit here that I enjoy somewhat the anonymity here because in real life and real time I am best less to argue/confront my accusers due to my position among the saints. Turning a deaf ear/the other cheek is not a weakness but rather a sign of strength in temperance. Hence, meekness.ngdawg said:Taking analogies and hypotheses as personal attacks speaks of your own lack of thick skin.
Once again I glory not in men... Self included, otherwise known as humility. Which is another fine Christian attribute.ngdawg said:Walk in faith but not in sight? I feel kind of sorry for you. You deny your own strengths and abilities by handing over what you yourself have accomplished to the faith of something unproven.
I never said only me. Tried to find it... It's just not here... And if it were to be I am certain it is either misconstrued/typo.It's the attempts made earlier to discredit others in their disbeliefs or different views by saying only 'you' know some truth that I would even attempt to discredit-I hold to the opinion that that is arrogant and a selfish use of your deity.
Apostle13 said:...And again you are generalizing. Stirring all who profess themselves Christians in the same pot. While at the same time you refuse in realizing/accepting my reason for reasoning as to why I prefer to detach myself from this broad definition that encompasses religion;
In as much as 911 is an extremest example of Islam. Ours as Christians are The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch hunts, Hitler was a Christian. I am sure there are more but surely you get the drift..? All done under the guise of christianity, thus religion.
...So far as close minded biggots... You'd be surprised how they crawl from the cracks if you try to share your faith in truth as a Christian.
To generalize or call attention to 'groups'? Or to just not recall doing so:Apostle13 said:Fair enough... Just not my personal inclination.
I fail to see any humility in such statements: "Always knowing that we have the TRUTH (as described in John 14:6) on our side...Making them squirm in their convictions." bit of arrogance right there, whether you want to call it something else or not.Apostle13 said:...
I should like to admit here that I enjoy somewhat the anonymity here because in real life and real time I am best less to argue/confront my accusers due to my position among the saints. Turning a deaf ear/the other cheek is not a weakness but rather a sign of strength in temperance. Hence, meekness.
Once again I glory not in men... Self included, otherwise known as humility. Which is another fine Christian attribute.
"In which case you should doubt me... As I do know the truth."Apostle13 said:I never said only me. Tried to find it... It's just not here... And if it were to be I am certain it is either misconstrued/typo.
Originally posted by ngdawg
you deny anything judgemental toward you, yet judge,
You prove nothing... Save that being my point... Your insatiable desire to discredit me... Even to such, and by way, of a desperate means, as to funnell and dig thru pasts posts, remove them from their contextual descriptives, for to further imply something altogether seperate from the current subject at hand. Then wrapping it all about in some seemingly closing and final analysis, whereby you contend yourself as being the character cop for DP.ngdawg said:See, Apostle...as much as you would like to think you walk among the saints, you are, sorry to say......................human. You forget or you deny statements, you deny anything judgemental toward you, yet judge, get thinskinned and turn it back, calling it whatever biblical parable fits the occasion. You can be light too, but for all your preaching and declarations of being a 'true christian', you have as far to go as anyone.
You do not wish to be 'grouped' with others calling themselves christian or religious, yet do the same. You don't want to be judged and, in fact, have a habit of denying any hypothesis directed toward you, yet you judge.
As I see it, the major difference here is you do it all in the name of God, I just do it as I see it.
Also, if you ARE going to deny others' opinions of the whys and hows of your remarks, you would do yourself a service by clarifying why we are wrong, lest you continue to be erroneously judged, continuously shot down and 'grouped', causing you to continue to appear defensive and thinskinned.
But that's YOUR call.....
The same as:Apostle13 said:In which case you should doubt me... As I do know the truth
Thereby my words and meaning construed as suspected.ngdawg said:by saying only 'you' know some truth that I would even attempt to discredit
YOU put up the challenge....don't ask for something if you don't really want it.Apostle13 said:You prove nothing... Save that being my point... Your insatiable desire to discredit me... Even to such, and by way, of a desperate means, as to funnell and dig thru pasts posts, remove them from their contextual descriptives, for to further imply something altogether seperate from the current subject at hand. Then wrapping it all about in some seemingly closing and final analysis, whereby you contend yourself as being the character cop for DP.
In the least your actions border in the realm of the pathetic.
Neither is:
The same as:
Thereby my words and meaning construed as suspected.
Do you never stop..?
You want I should just sign the ticket deputy..?
Spin it how you wish deputy dawg... What I said (ref. post#45) as opposed to what you say I said are two, too different. Whereby you intend to imply pomposity on my part. You could only fool a fool with that'n. Take heart we have all sorts here.ngdawg said:YOU put up the challenge....don't ask for something if you don't really want it.
I didn't construe, they are direct quotes. Again, denial of what you say and do.
Spin again... Stop you are making me nauseous.I haven't discredited anything but whatever you think to be so in your own head, nor am I attempting to.
...And here we have the classic veiled you're a hypocrite maneuver... Oh man :doh nailed my coffin...Now, about that judging thing, deputy? Pot, meet Kettle....
Good Christian indeed:roll:
The Real McCoy said:Well, I'm screwed then. Since I'm already guilty of murder, I think I'll just go grab a gun and kill as many people as I can and then ask for forgivness. Hey, while I'm at it, maybe I'll rape a few little girls too.
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