Navy Pride
DP Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2005
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- Political Leaning
- Very Conservative
Stace said:It's all a matter of opinion, NP. I've told you time and again, I support the troops but I do not support the reasons why we are in Iraq. You know that I and my husband are both prior military and that my husband served in Iraq. You're basically trying to say, therefore, that I did not support myself nor my husband, and that is absolute BS and you know it.
Navy Pride said:This Liberal has got it right.......You can't support the troops and not support their mission..... I have been saying this for months now a Liberal at the LA Times is saying it........Read it and weep....
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-stein24jan24,0,3682678.column?coll=la-util-op-ed
January 24, 2006 latimes.com : Opinion Print E-mail story Most E-mailed
Joel Stein:
Warriors and wusses
I DON'T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.
I'm sure I'd like the troops. They seem gutsy, young and up for anything. If you're wandering into a recruiter's office and signing up for eight years of unknown danger, I want to hang with you in Vegas.
And I've got no problem with other people — the ones who were for the Iraq war — supporting the troops. If you think invading Iraq was a good idea, then by all means, support away. Load up on those patriotic magnets and bracelets and other trinkets the Chinese are making money off of.
But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward.
Blindly lending support to our soldiers, I fear, will keep them overseas longer by giving soft acquiescence to the hawks who sent them there — and who might one day want to send them somewhere else. Trust me, a guy who thought 50.7% was a mandate isn't going to pick up on the subtleties of a parade for just service in an unjust war. He's going to be looking for funnel cake.
Besides, those little yellow ribbons aren't really for the troops. They need body armor, shorter stays and a USO show by the cast of "Laguna Beach."
The real purpose of those ribbons is to ease some of the guilt we feel for voting to send them to war and then making absolutely no sacrifices other than enduring two Wolf Blitzer shows a day. Though there should be a ribbon for that.
I understand the guilt. We know we're sending recruits to do our dirty work, and we want to seem grateful.
After we've decided that we made a mistake, we don't want to blame the soldiers who were ordered to fight. Or even our representatives, who were deceived by false intelligence. And certainly not ourselves, who failed to object to a war we barely understood.
But blaming the president is a little too easy. The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.
I do sympathize with people who joined up to protect our country, especially after 9/11, and were tricked into fighting in Iraq. I get mad when I'm tricked into clicking on a pop-up ad, so I can only imagine how they feel.
But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. So you're willingly signing up to be a fighting tool of American imperialism, for better or worse. Sometimes you get lucky and get to fight ethnic genocide in Kosovo, but other times it's Vietnam.
And sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, you get to just hang out in Germany.
I know this is all easy to say for a guy who grew up with money, did well in school and hasn't so much as served on jury duty for his country. But it's really not that easy to say because anyone remotely affiliated with the military could easily beat me up, and I'm listed in the phone book.
I'm not advocating that we spit on returning veterans like they did after the Vietnam War, but we shouldn't be celebrating people for doing something we don't think was a good idea. All I'm asking is that we give our returning soldiers what they need: hospitals, pensions, mental health and a safe, immediate return. But, please, no parades.
Seriously, the traffic is insufferable.
Navy Pride said:Well that is not what that writer in the LA Times says...You can't support the troops if you don't want them to be successfyl in the mission they are trying to accomplish.....You can't have it both ways......
Trajan Octavian Titus said:I'd really like to kick the ever loving sh!t out of the guy who wrote this.
Stace said:Really? Just because one guy said so in an op ed piece? So you're saying that I DIDN'T SUPPORT MYSELF OR MY HUSBAND? That's certainly news to me. News to my husband, as well. I told him about this post and he said "Yeah, you really didn't support me, you know, you stayed married to me, didn't cheat on me, sent me tons of letters and care packages....yeah, you really didn't support me".......
Navy Pride said:Do you support the job the troops are doing in Iraq? do you want them to be succesful in the mission the CIC has laid down for them.............
If your answer is yes , then you support the troops...............If the answer is no then I am sorry you can't have it both ways......
Stace said:So would I, ToT.....I think that's the first thing we've agreed upon in quite some time.
I'm ready when you are. :mrgreen:
Navy Pride said:Why am I not surprised you don't agree with him?
Stace said:I honestly couldn't tell you, because believe it or not NP, there have been a number of occasions where I have agreed with a conservative on some point or another.
Navy Pride said:If you say so stace.........
Navy Pride said:Well that is not what that writer in the LA Times says...You can't support the troops if you don't want them to be successfyl in the mission they are trying to accomplish.....You can't have it both ways......
aps said:And that is his opinion. I have two friends who have served and are currently serving in Iraq. One of them says you can support the troops without supporting the war. The other one says you cannot.
Frankly, I don't give a rat's butt if any soldier thinks I don't support them. That's their problem. And, to me, no one is capable of telling anyone else how they feel. That's just plain ridiculous.
aps said:Frankly, I don't give a rat's butt if any soldier thinks I don't support them. That's their problem. And, to me, no one is capable of telling anyone else how they feel. That's just plain ridiculous.
Like this?...:2wave:Kanye West said:George Bush doesn't like black people
cnredd said:Like this?...:2wave:
aps said:Yes, exactly! That statement from that guy was just plain ridiculous. We all know I cannot stand Bush, but I don't believe for one minute he is a racist.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:an analogy if you will:
"animal testing is evil and must be stopped."
Now does that not imply that the ones doing the tests on the animals are also evil? After all no one forced them into that position it was voluntary.
"The war in Iraq is evil and must be stopped."
Now does that not imply that those fighting the war are also evil? After all no one forced them into that postition it was voluntary.
You can not say that ones profession is immoral without implying that they themselves are immoral.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:But he's an evil neo-Conservative Republican and AND he's a Christian. :shock:
Did you equally DETEST the half-million-plus people that died BEFORE the war?...Would you have equally DETESTED that regime for the thousands of future deaths had there been no war?...aps said:I absolutely DETEST the number of deaths that the war in Iraq has caused (Afghanistan excluded) because I cannot stand that people are dying over this bogus piece of crap war.
cnredd said:Did you equally DETEST the half-million-plus people that died BEFORE the war?...Would you have equally DETESTED that regime for the thousands of future deaths had there been no war?...
Or did they just not matter to you?...
HH: Let me ask you a tough question, Joel, because this is the toughest one. J.P. Blecksmith was a young Marine lieutenant, graduated from Annapolis, killed in Fallujah on November 11th, 2004. Just a tremendous human being and man. If you meet his parents on the street, what do you say to them?
JS: That I'm so, so sorry.
HH: Do you honor the service that their son did?
JS: To honor the service their son...now this is a dumb question, but what do you mean by honor? That's a word you keep using. I'm not entirely...maybe that's my problem. But I'm not entirely sure what you're...
HH: Honor usually means gratitude and esteem. Are you grateful for and esteem what he did? Honestly?
JS: Honestly? I admire the bravery. I don't...you know, I feel like he did something I could never do, so I'm kind of in awe on some level. Am I grateful, that I feel like he protected me? Um, no I don't.
HH: And so, do you think he died in vain?
JS: Yeah. I do. And that's why I'm so horrified by all this, and why I don't want empty sentiments prolonging the war.
HH: And the people who've died in Afghanistan. Have they died in vain?
JS: Well, if they haven't, what have they accomplished?
HH: I'm asking you, Joel. You wrote the column. You tell me. Have they accomplished nothing?
JS: Well, um, do I think that I, as an American, are safer because of what they did?
HH: That wasn't what I asked. I askd did they accomplish anything in going to Afghanistan.
JS: If I were an Afghani, I would probably...if I lived in Kabul, I probably would think that they accomplished something, sure.
HH: All right. Now have you read any books on the military? I mean, do you read this stuff at all, like Robert Kaplan's Imperial Grunts?
JS: No. No, I'm not an expert at this at all. I mean, I think you certainly can tell.
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