This is the fruit of Liberlism

[iguanaman]

I don't know. I can only speak for myself. Discipline in the classroom is important if any learning is to take place. If it can be accomplished without a spanking that's great. If not then it needs to be forced. Otherwise you end up with the kind of classroom described by the OP. When I was a teacher normally all I had to do was throw a piece of chalk or wait for the miscreants to stop interrupting the class. But I taught in an upscale suburban high school. Keeping discipline wasn't difficult. In that New York classroom it is close to impossible because of incompetent parenting.

But you think beating will help that type of student? Not according to experts. There are better methods than beatings to deal with this kind of problem as a teacher I'm sure you know that.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Worse how? It has funding, good facilities and good teachers.

Worse how? Didn't you read the article linked to in the OP? It would be impossible to teach or learn in such an environment.

 

[ocean515]

Well, that's REALLY interesting, because your reference - with data from the Department of Education - shows great improvement in Texas' graduation rate, whereas my reference - the U.S. Census - shows Texas being dead last in high school graduation rate. How could that possibly be?

First clue, from your reference: The U.S. Department of Education computes an adjusted graduation rate for states by dividing the number of students earning a regular diploma by an "adjusted cohort" for the graduating class -- the number of ninth graders four years ago, plus students transferring in, minus those who transferred, emigrated or passed away during the four school years.

Compare that to the census which checks all households, not just school records. It may well be that there's quite a few that the DOE missed out on. I could be wrong, but then there's this second clue, linked to by YOUR reference:

Texas High School Graduation Rates Improving, Mysteriously

But the state’s headway with graduation rates has not been matched by similar success in measures that track students’ college and career readiness, prompting questions about what it takes to earn a high school diploma. A dropout prevention program in the Dallas Independent School District, where the graduation rate has risen 16 percentage points in the last five years, has been cited as a possible explanation for the disconnect.

“I’ve encountered too many of our students who are functionally illiterate,” said Mike Morath, a trustee of the district, the state’s second-largest. “If your standard for graduation is the standard needed for success in college after graduation, then the graduation rates should be nowhere near where there are. They should be much lower.”

In an Aug. 28 ruling that found the state’s school finance system violated the Texas Constitution, state district court Judge John Dietz of Austin said student performance on a “variety of metrics” indicated the state was “far from meeting its objectives” related to college and career readiness.

“An alarming percentage of Texas students graduate high school without the necessary knowledge and skills to perform well in college,” Dietz said in his decision, which the state intends to appeal.

Over the last decade, more students earning high school diplomas are moving on to higher education, but the rate of students leaving college without degrees has either flatlined or increased since 2009. At two-year institutions, one of every three students fails to return for a second year. Of students who attend four-year universities, about 30 percent stop before they complete their degrees, a rate that has remained consistent over the past decade.

In other words, the claim that Texas has had a great improvement in education looks a lot less factual and smells a heck of a lot more like a "let's make our state look a heck of a lot better than it really is" sales pitch.

I would suspect that Texas, like California, is struggling with the impact of the massive influx of illegal aliens from third world countries, where culturally, education is not a priority. It's probably not a coincidence southern border states are all in the bottom 15 in educational attainment.

 

[Dittohead not!]

The solution to problem schools like the one described does not lie in political ideology, nor in corporal punishment, nor in money, nor in platitudes.

The solution lies in creating an environment in which rules are enforced and teachers respected. It lies in a school environment conducive to teaching and learning.

It seems to me it has come to the point that maintaining such an environment is not possible in the context of secondary education as a right, and not as a privilege.

Students and their parents should be able to select their schools. Schools should be able to say, "here are the rules and the standards you must follow if you're to attend here."

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I would suspect that Texas, like California, is struggling with the impact of the massive influx of illegal aliens from third world countries, where culturally, education is not a priority. It's probably not a coincidence southern border states are all in the bottom 15 in educational attainment.

Your first mistake is the broad-based assumption that third-world nations don't value education. Or haven't you noticed that just about every single year the one who wins our national spelling bee is a child of Indian immigrants? And if you were to go to the Philippines, at graduation time you'd see schools and newspapers putting up billboards congratulating individual students on their achievements, and dirt-poor parents spending money they can't afford on big frickin' signs to put alongside their streets to show how proud they are of their children graduating school. That, and go look at the list of doctors at your local hospital, and see how many have Indian or Arabic or otherwise Asian names. It would be SO nice if y'all would actually LEARN about other peoples, other cultures, so you could get a clue that there's a heck of a lot of GOOD things we could learn from them.

On top of all that is that some of the worst states when it comes to educational attainment rates - like Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Alabama - aren't border states at all. So who are you going to try to blame it on now?

One more thing - you're a pretty intelligent fellow (take that at face value - no sarcasm). I say that the reason why red states generally have significantly lower educational attainment rates than blue states has little, perhaps nothing to do with the political lean of those states. If I'm so doggone partisan, why would I say that? And what's my reasoning for saying that the educational attainment rate has little to do with the political lean of the state in question?

So have fun with those two questions.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Just read it.
Sad.

Actually this has everything to do with "liberalism" if applied in the behavioral sense, which is what is applied in socialist thinking. And here we have a classic case of stupid laid on top of permissive and mixed with idiocy.

Problem one - they have established a list of hard line rules, which first ban everything relating to THEIR culture, much of it for purely idiological reasons.

Two - they have removed any means of making these hoodlums conform to the rules; classic socialist response to all problems is "ban it". But how?

Three - they have failed to establish or foster a peer environment, where a 'leader' or 'leaders" emerge on their own.

And four - they forgot to whom the classroom belongs, it is not the teacher as the unions like to claim, it is not the students idealists like to claim. It is OUR classroom, we ****ing pay for it.

These hoodlums aren't lost, not at all. The education system, having lost or deliberately surrendered all authority are now trying some theorists idea of a solution.

There are solutions in this. But they are a long way down the line as the brain trust has created an environment where the students see arrogance, authoritarianism, with nothing to back it up. They come from an environment you tell someone to do something you best be prepared to die over it. Why the hell would any of them make any investment in the place, the process and "the dude they sent in here to tell us where to sit our own asses....."

I am no teacher but I have worked the street. The first thing I would have done would have been to read that list of what is NOT allowed, toss it in the basket and start a conversation on why those rules suck ****. Hopefully it will lead to a conversation about self-expression and how that's protected under the constitution, and maybe that will lead to a conversation on how the constitution is working. Ask questions like "What's wrong with wearing gang colors?". May sound like bull****, but there is a lot better chance of getting to them than insisting all the **** they like to do is banned, but no way to enforce it.

But, we are not done in our criticisms. No. The principal refuses to expel anyone! Why is "expel" in there? These are kids who want OUT, and we punish them by giving them what they think they want. First, you have to move off the punishment model and move into a peer setting where the 'rules' will evolve among them based on democratic process

Then I would burn every teaching manual available.

 

[ocean515]

Your first mistake is the broad-based assumption that third-world nations don't value education. Or haven't you noticed that just about every single year the one who wins our national spelling bee is a child of Indian immigrants? And if you were to go to the Philippines, at graduation time you'd see schools and newspapers putting up billboards congratulating individual students on their achievements, and dirt-poor parents spending money they can't afford on big frickin' signs to put alongside their streets to show how proud they are of their children graduating school. That, and go look at the list of doctors at your local hospital, and see how many have Indian or Arabic or otherwise Asian names. It would be SO nice if y'all would actually LEARN about other peoples, other cultures, so you could get a clue that there's a heck of a lot of GOOD things we could learn from them.

On top of all that is that some of the worst states when it comes to educational attainment rates - like Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Alabama - aren't border states at all. So who are you going to try to blame it on now?

One more thing - you're a pretty intelligent fellow (take that at face value - no sarcasm). I say that the reason why red states generally have significantly lower educational attainment rates than blue states has little, perhaps nothing to do with the political lean of those states. If I'm so doggone partisan, why would I say that? And what's my reasoning for saying that the educational attainment rate has little to do with the political lean of the state in question?

So have fun with those two questions.

Your first mistake was to deflect from the statement I made regarding illegal aliens. Do Indians make up the illegal alien population in California? Do Filipinos' make up the illegal alien population in Texas? Are there educational exceptions within the population of illegal aliens? Of course, I never suggested otherwise.

Educational Leadership:Meeting Students Where They Are:The Latino Education Crisis

NationalJournal


As to your questions, I have no interest in them whatsoever.

 

[Renae]

Feel free to explain why it is that generally speaking the educational attainment rate in blue states is higher than that in red states.

BTW - here's a second challenge. I say that the FACT that the educational attainment rate in blue states is generally higher than that in red states has NOTHING to do with the political lean of those states. If I were as partisan as you seem to believe, would I say that? Why would I say that? What's my reasoning?

Have fun with those last three questions!

You mean the closer to the border and illegal immigrants one gets the lower this one stat you repeat ad nauseam gets?

 

[Candor]

This is indeed very sad, but I'm not sure what it has to do with American liberalism.

Yes, we must assume that all mentally capable people are ultimately responsible for their lives and decisions, but they also don't make those decisions in a vacuum, and that's very important to understand. Simply blaming and saying people deserve what they get doesn't fix anything.

 

[Absentglare]

This is indeed very sad, but I'm not sure what it has to do with American liberalism.

Yes, we must assume that all mentally capable people are ultimately responsible for their lives and decisions, but they also don't make those decisions in a vacuum, and that's very important to understand. Simply blaming and saying people deserve what they get doesn't fix anything.

Some people sincerely believe that all of society's problems are liberals fault.

The reason you can find no proof is simple: no such proof exists. It's founded on unjustified belief.

 

[Candor]

Some people sincerely believe that all of society's problems are liberals fault.

The reason you can find no proof is simple: no such proof exists. It's founded on unjustified belief.

Proof of what exactly?

 

[Absentglare]

Proof of what exactly?

Proof that liberalism is at fault for our countries social problems.

 

[US Conservative]

A lifelong liberal, Boland began to feel uncomfortable with his thinking. “We can’t just explain away someone’s horrible behavior because they have had a tough *upbringing,” he argued back. “It doesn’t do them — or us — any good.”

A liberal epiphany.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Proof that liberalism is at fault for our countries social problems.

If the term "liberalism" means what it appears to mean, as it is being used on this thread, then I totally agree. It means "anyone who disagrees with my personal point of view." Now, if everyone agreed with me, the country would be doing just fine.

Of course, political discussion boards would be somewhat boring.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Your first mistake was to deflect from the statement I made regarding illegal aliens. Do Indians make up the illegal alien population in California? Do Filipinos' make up the illegal alien population in Texas? Are there educational exceptions within the population of illegal aliens? Of course, I never suggested otherwise.

Educational Leadership:Meeting Students Where They Are:The Latino Education Crisis

NationalJournal


As to your questions, I have no interest in them whatsoever.

Of course you have interest in questions that require answers that aren't found within the right-wing echo-chamber...even when (as I stated) the answers have zero to do with politics.

But as to what you posted, "I would suspect that Texas, like California, is struggling with the impact of the massive influx of illegal aliens from third world countries, where culturally, education is not a priority. It's probably not a coincidence southern border states are all in the bottom 15 in educational attainment."

Note the bolded area. Now you personally might not have meant that third world countries don't place a priority on education, but that is NOT what your statement said. It's pretty clear what your words said...so either you meant precisely what your words said...or you made a simple grammatical error (the placement of the comma strongly implies all third-world nations, but a lack of a comma would have referred to only certain third-world nations). Now I'm not going to expect you to admit error (since there are very few other than myself on this (or any other) forum with the intestinal fortitude to do so), so I'll just leave it at that.

And back to the OTHER red states that are near the bottom of the educational attainment ladder - you know, the ones that I listed for you that are NOT illegal-immigrant-heavy states - what's your explanation for them? Or are you going to dodge this question, too?

 

[Glen Contrarian]

You mean the closer to the border and illegal immigrants one gets the lower this one stat you repeat ad nauseam gets?

You're not paying attention. If you did, you'd note that several of the red states near the bottom are not immigrant-heavy states, like Mississippi, West Virginia, Arkansas...and when it comes to Bachelor's degrees and higher, the difference is even more pronounced, including places like Idaho and Kentucky.

Care to try again?

 

[Renae]

You're not paying attention. If you did, you'd note that several of the red states near the bottom are not immigrant-heavy states, like Mississippi, West Virginia, Arkansas...and when it comes to Bachelor's degrees and higher, the difference is even more pronounced, including places like Idaho and Kentucky.

Care to try again?

California is two over Texas. Do you have any other useless points to make?

 

[Glen Contrarian]

California is two over Texas. Do you have any other useless points to make?

And is California the only blue state? Is Texas the only red state? You gotta compare all the states, and look at which ones are doing better, and which ones are doing worse, and for each of those categories, which ones are generally blue and which ones are generally red.

Betcha won't...because you can see for yourself the obvious answer.

 

[Crovax]

Well, that's REALLY interesting, because your reference - with data from the Department of Education - shows great improvement in Texas' graduation rate, whereas my reference - the U.S. Census - shows Texas being dead last in high school graduation rate. How could that possibly be?

First clue, from YOUR reference: The U.S. Department of Education computes an adjusted graduation rate for states by dividing the number of students earning a regular diploma by an "adjusted cohort" for the graduating class -- the number of ninth graders four years ago, plus students transferring in, minus those who transferred, emigrated or passed away during the four school years.

Compare that to the census which checks all households, not just school records. It may well be that there's quite a few that the DOE missed out on. I could be wrong, but then there's this second clue, linked to by YOUR reference:

Texas High School Graduation Rates Improving, Mysteriously

But the state’s headway with graduation rates has not been matched by similar success in measures that track students’ college and career readiness, prompting questions about what it takes to earn a high school diploma. A dropout prevention program in the Dallas Independent School District, where the graduation rate has risen 16 percentage points in the last five years, has been cited as a possible explanation for the disconnect.

“I’ve encountered too many of our students who are functionally illiterate,” said Mike Morath, a trustee of the district, the state’s second-largest. “If your standard for graduation is the standard needed for success in college after graduation, then the graduation rates should be nowhere near where there are. They should be much lower.”

In an Aug. 28 ruling that found the state’s school finance system violated the Texas Constitution, state district court Judge John Dietz of Austin said student performance on a “variety of metrics” indicated the state was “far from meeting its objectives” related to college and career readiness.

“An alarming percentage of Texas students graduate high school without the necessary knowledge and skills to perform well in college,” Dietz said in his decision, which the state intends to appeal.

Over the last decade, more students earning high school diplomas are moving on to higher education, but the rate of students leaving college without degrees has either flatlined or increased since 2009. At two-year institutions, one of every three students fails to return for a second year. Of students who attend four-year universities, about 30 percent stop before they complete their degrees, a rate that has remained consistent over the past decade.

In other words, the claim that Texas has had a great improvement in education looks a lot less factual and smells a heck of a lot more like a "let's make our state look a heck of a lot better than it really is" sales pitch.

All states calculate thier graduation rates the same way.

since 2010, when the federal government required states to calculate graduation rates the same way.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-high-school-graduation-rates-state-by-state/

 

[Renae]

And is California the only blue state? Is Texas the only red state? You gotta compare all the states, and look at which ones are doing better, and which ones are doing worse, and for each of those categories, which ones are generally blue and which ones are generally red.

Betcha won't...because you can see for yourself the obvious answer.

The closer to the border, the more likely you are to have lower school "achievement" and higher poverty. This isn't some racist rant, or xenophobia, it's reality that no amount of political wishing can make go away. Your stats you are so proud of have caveats so damning as to make them useless. Have a nice day Glen.

 

[Divergent]

Just read it.
Sad.

Conservatives cut funding to schools because they think $ doesn't have anything to do with kids getting smarter...........Teachers can only handle a certain amount of students and it takes taxation to fund teachers. Eventually you get overcrowded classrooms where kids don't learn.

In urban bad area's, it takes even more classrooms with more 1 on 1. This takes funding. Taxation.

Our formerly Racist nation is reaping what it sewed. The smart people are working on ways to get out of the rut.

 

[dimensionallava]

You might be thinking of the wrong school. This one allegedly hosts the city's "neediest" children.

any sources for that? from what i can see its a special school that focuses on space flight and aeronautics it has 6-12th grade with less than 500 kids in the school, and its in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in new york, its right down the street from the world trade center.

but lets say every word of this story is true why is that the kids are being blamed and not the teacher who had no experience and was apparently left crying in a ball on the floor, by the taunts of some kids.

 

[robert smith]

Liberal males are weaklings.

 

[Kurmugeon]

I would view the loss of discipline in public schools as a liberal phenomenon. In my high school, miscreants were literally paddled on the butt in the maintenance room. It would probably be good in all high schools. Liberals would never tolerate it.

It has been allowed to grow to a proportion which disallows this kind of a solution.

You cannot paddle the butt of a violent street gang member. They'll come back an hour later and "Cap yo Azzz"!

You cannot appeal to the moral shame of a teen girl who has been doing cheap tricks under a bridge for her Pimp-Daddy's Heroin Fixes, she hasn't had a soul for ten years.

You cannot "rebuild" Detroit into a grand and productive city, no matter how many "Program Dollars" you throw at it.

Conservative values, policies and processes cannot fix what Progressives have allowed/encouraged to decay and rot beyond all recognition.

Conservatives can "Conserve", or protect from rot, a Productive Society that Producers created. Conservatives cannot Create that Productive Society, they are not Innovative or pioneering enough to grasp and develop new opportunities. But they can keep it going for generations.

Classic Liberals, in the tradition of Thomas Jefferson, can envision and liberate a group of Pioneers to become those Producers.

Progressives are like Rats or Grubs... they are low, they scavenge and feed on rot, division and destruction. They never Produce, they never Conserve, they never Liberate, they are not Pioneers... they divide, rot and consume.

Progressives feed of division, chaos and dysfunction. They poison society to feed on its corpses.

This NYC school is the product of Progressives.

-

 

[HowardBThiname]

any sources for that? from what i can see its a special school that focuses on space flight and aeronautics it has 6-12th grade with less than 500 kids in the school, and its in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in new york, its right down the street from the world trade center.

Maybe they're busing them in. Who knows but it's right in the first paragraph of the story:

In 2008, Ed Boland, a well-off New Yorker who had spent 20 years as an executive at a nonprofit, had a midlife epiphany: He should leave his white-glove world, the galas at the Waldorf and drinks at the Yale Club, and go work with the city’s neediest children.

but lets say every word of this story is true why is that the kids are being blamed and not the teacher who had no experience and was apparently left crying in a ball on the floor, by the taunts of some kids.

I don't know that the teacher wasn't partially at fault, but it is obvious that there is a lack of respect in public schools these days. I saw it up close when I visited my spouse when she taught ESL to Vietnamese students at the local middle school. It was lunch time and I had to speak with her. She was escorting an 8th-grade class in the cafeteria. As we chatted, three of the boys in line pointed their fingers - emulating pistols - at my wife and pretended to shoot her. As I turned to leave, I told the boys that wasn't very nice. They laughed and told me they'd just "finger banged" my wife. I asked my wife later if that happened often and she said it was an everyday event. Or, something similar. She just ignored it, she said. Instructors and staff are not allowed to touch the students. Teachers rarely send the students to the counselor for those types of infractions because it usually backfires. The kids see it as a sign of weakness and escalate their misbehavior. Nothing as bad as what the kids in the NYC story did, however.

I see it as a failure of the laws, the parents and the schools. If kids aren't raised to be respectful, they won't be.