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Think big deficits cause recessions? Think again!

No, I'm saying it didn't, I'm saying that the recession was just due to the natural business cycle, considering it had been 8 years since the last one. You need to stop think the government has a big impact on the economy, If it did Obama deficit spending $1tn+ per year should have had the economy roaring.

It was? The recession is linked to FDR attempting to "balance the budget." Hell, it's been 8 years, where's the next recession? I don't see it. The deficit spending, lots of it didn't go to things aimed at getting to full employment.
 
So, massive government intervention between the crash of 1929 (when unemployment was 4%) and 1937 (when unemployment was 14%) is your idea of a government policy that 'really did work'? Eight years of a policy that resulted in an unemployment rate almost five times higher? Noted.

And the old 'yeah, but the rate was at 25%'.
Sure it was. Now prove that the rate getting that high had nothing to do with the massive government intervention and that had they stated out of the way (more or less) that the rate would still have gotten that high?
The answer is...you cannot.

DA, the great depression was a downward spiral, this is how things work. Just like the recent recession.
All evidence shows government spending got us out of the depression without unnecessary suffering.
 
Lowering taxes is what should be done. Balancing the budget is not. Anyways, the recession of 1920/21 (Not a depression by any sense of the word) was an anomaly, and still longer then recessions by post 1945 standards.

Call it whatever you wish.

The fact remains that the 1920/21 Depression/Recession saw both the unemployment rate and the DOW go back to near pre crash levels within 3 1/2 years AND saw the national debt DROP by over 10%.

Which proves that the notion that you have to run huge deficits to quickly exit a recession/depression is erroneous.
 
So, massive government intervention between the crash of 1929 (when unemployment was 4%) and 1937 (when unemployment was 14%) is your idea of a government policy that 'really did work'? Eight years of a policy that resulted in an unemployment rate almost five times higher? Noted.

And the old 'yeah, but the rate was at 25%'.
Sure it was. Now prove that the rate getting that high had nothing to do with the massive government intervention and that had they stated out of the way (more or less) that the rate would still have gotten that high?
The answer is...you cannot.

It's my biggest bug bear that people hold FDR to such a high position because of crap like the 'new deal' and stuff, when he never once got the private sector to any significance above the 29 high. Not even the war pulled the economy out of the mire. The depression was 15 years long all years with massive government expenditures, and he still couldn't get the private sector growing.
 
Call it whatever you wish.

The fact remains that the 1920/21 Depression/Recession saw both the unemployment rate and the DOW go back to near pre crash levels within 3 1/2 years AND saw the national debt DROP by over 10%.

Which proves that the notion that you have to run huge deficits to quickly exit a recession/depression is erroneous.
Oh, it only took 3 1/2 years for a minor recession that is an anomaly, where the government was actually involved way more then libertarians tend to believe? It had no major financial crisis either, and the great depression was a massive drop compared to 1920-1921.
Social Democracy for the 21st Century: A Post Keynesian Perspective: The US Recession of 1920–1921: Some Austrian Myths
“Monetary policy began to shift in December 1919, then changed markedly in January 1920. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York’s discount rate, which had been pegged at 4 percent since April 1919, was raised to 4.75 percent in December 1919, to 6 percent in January 1920, and to 7 percent in June 1920. Similar discount rate increases were made at the other Federal Reserve Banks. Friedman and Schwartz argue that these sharp increases came too late to be responsible for the January 1920 turning point but that they produced the severe contraction and deflation which came after mid-year.”
But, by 1921, there was monetary loosening. In April and May 1921, Federal Reserve member banks dropped their rates to 6.5% or 6%. In November 1921, there were further falls in discount rates: rates fell to 4.5% in the Boston, Philadelphia, New York, and to 5% or 5.5% in other reserve banks (D’Arista 1994: 62).

The role of the Federal Reserve underscores how the recession of 1920–1921 was not like US downturns in the 19th century, since the US had no central bank before 1914 (and after 1836 when the charter of the Second Bank of the United States expired). If we admit that Fed policy contributed to the recession, then it is highly probable that Fed easing of interest rates in 1921 also had a role in ending the recession, because the relatively lower interest rates after May 1921 preceded the expansion that ended the recession (which began in July 1921).

The recovery, then, has to be partly related to central bank policy, not to the pure free market eulogised by Austrian economists. (And in fact one of the reasons why there was no sharp recession after WWII was that the Federal Reserve kept interest rates very low after 1945 [Vernon 1991: 580]).

The belief that the recovery in 1921 proves that a laissez faire or “do nothing” policy will work in other cases of serious recession or depression is utter nonsense. Above all, the empirical data show that modern macroeconomic policies have reduced the durations of recessions after 1945. There is no reason why in principle the 1920–1921 recession could have been alleviated and brought to an end sooner if countercyclical fiscal policy had been used.
 
It's my biggest bug bear that people hold FDR to such a high position because of crap like the 'new deal' and stuff, when he never once got the private sector to any significance above the 29 high. Not even the war pulled the economy out of the mire. The depression was 15 years long all years with massive government expenditures, and he still couldn't get the private sector growing.

Huh? The private sector was recovering until FDR went back to attempting to balance the budget. Thank for god world war 2, a perfect example of massive government spending saving the economy.
 
DA, the great depression was a downward spiral, this is how things work. Just like the recent recession.
All evidence shows government spending got us out of the depression without unnecessary suffering.

There is no proof whatsoever that had the government/Fed done 'nothing' that the economy would not be in far better shape then it is now.

And there is no proof whatsoever that what the government/Fed has done since 2007 has not actually hurt the economic recovery of America.

There maybe evidence..but there is no proof.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to know what a past event would be like under different circumstances...IMPOSSIBLE.

So it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to accurately say that what the government did since 2007 has aided the economy more then if the government had just cut rates and balanced the budget.

And considering the example of the 1920/21 Depression which PROVED that you can quickly get out of a major economic downturn while the government posts surpluses/balances the budget...the idea that the government had to spend vast sums of money is even more dubious, IMO.
 
It was? The recession is linked to FDR attempting to "balance the budget." Hell, it's been 8 years, where's the next recession? I don't see it. The deficit spending, lots of it didn't go to things aimed at getting to full employment.

Of course you don't as you live in fantasy land where mass government spending is a good thing :roll: If it was FDR balancing the budget that caused the 37-38 recession, please explain why a contracting government in 20-21 didn't lead to a decade long depression?

Of course. It's a horrible idea.

No it's not, only MMT nuts live in the fantasy world think that it is.
 
There is no proof whatsoever that had the government/Fed done 'nothing' that the economy would not be in far better shape then it is now.

And there is no proof whatsoever that what the government/Fed has done since 2007 has noy actually hurt the economic recovery of America.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to know what a past event would be like under different circumstances...IMPOSSIBLE.

So it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to accurately say that what the government did since 2007 has aided the economy more then if the government had just cut rates and balanced the budget.

Are you kidding me?
God, what a weak argument. The evidence in support of countercylical fiscal policy is clear. Look at the duration of recessions and the severity before/after countercylical fiscal policy. No one is saying the economy can't recover on it's own, but why let output suffer for years? Why let millions fall into unemployment for no reason apart from a fear of numbers? If the government attempted to balance the budget in regards to the GFC right after we noticed it occurring, drastic cuts would have to be made since food stamps/unemployment numbers always increase (stabilizers) when the economy goes downhill. This increases the deficit. So, what do you cut? What happens to the people who got back to work thanks to the stimulus? What do you do about the banks? Why burn everyone else down?
 
Huh? The private sector was recovering until FDR went back to attempting to balance the budget. Thank for god world war 2, a perfect example of massive government spending saving the economy.

The same world war that saw the private sector crash again? :roll: So an unprecedented amount of government expenditure over 15 years is what you need every time you go into recession? Why are we no constantly in depression then?
 
Oh, it only took 3 1/2 years for a minor recession that is an anomaly, where the government was actually involved way more then libertarians tend to believe? It had no major financial crisis either, and the great depression was a massive drop compared to 1920-1921.
Social Democracy for the 21st Century: A Post Keynesian Perspective: The US Recession of 1920–1921: Some Austrian Myths


The belief that the recovery in 1921 proves that a laissez faire or “do nothing” policy will work in other cases of serious recession or depression is utter nonsense. Above all, the empirical data show that modern macroeconomic policies have reduced the durations of recessions after 1945. There is no reason why in principle the 1920–1921 recession could have been alleviated and brought to an end sooner if countercyclical fiscal policy had been used.

:roll:

So, the 1920/21 Depression is a 'minor recession' to you?

The unemployment rate almost tripled (some say it went up by 8 times) and prices dropped about 15% (huge deflation).

And that is a 'minor recession' to you?

Okaaaaaaaaay.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_of_1920–21


If you are going to live in Krugmanite Fairyland and spin things beyond the realms of macroeconomic sanity...we are done.


Have a nice day.


And...once again...I am neither rep nor dem, neither libertarian or (gulp) Keynesian. I am me.
 
Are you kidding me?
God, what a weak argument. The evidence in support of countercylical fiscal policy is clear. Look at the duration of recessions and the severity before/after countercylical fiscal policy. No one is saying the economy can't recover on it's own, but why let output suffer for years? Why let millions fall into unemployment for no reason apart from a fear of numbers? If the government attempted to balance the budget in regards to the GFC right after we noticed it occurring, drastic cuts would have to be made since food stamps/unemployment numbers always increase (stabilizers) when the economy goes downhill. This increases the deficit. So, what do you cut? What happens to the people who got back to work thanks to the stimulus? What do you do about the banks? Why burn everyone else down?

Have you taken into account the differences in how the economy was measured? As you do know that deflation was considered recessionary, which is why 'depressions' look a lot longer than they actually were in the 1800's.
 
:roll:

So, the 1920/21 Depression is a 'minor recession' to you?

The unemployment rate almost tripled (some say it went up by 8 times) and prices dropped about 15% (huge deflation).

And that is a 'minor recession' to you?

Okaaaaaaaaay.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_of_1920–21


If you are going to live in Krugmanite Fairyland and spin things beyond the realms of macroeconomic sanity...we are done.


Have a nice day.


And...once again...I am neither rep nor dem, neither libertarian or (gulp) Keynesian. I am me.
What the hell is a krugmanite?
Libertarians seem unaware that recent economic research has shown that the downturn of 1920–1921 was not as severe as previously thought. The widely accepted definition of a depression is a fall of 10% in output or GDP. In past estimates of the fall in national output, official Commerce Department data suggested that GNP fell 8% between 1919 and 1920 and 7% percent between 1920 and 1921 (Romer 1988: 108).

But Christina Romer has argued that actual decline in real GNP was only about 1% between 1919 and 1920 and 2% between 1920 and 1921 (Romer 1988: 109; Parker 2002: 2). So in fact real output moved very little, and this was not a depression on the scale of 1929–1933 or previous 19th century depressions. Libertarians cannot claim that 1920–1921 was an example of the free market quickly ending a downturn where output collapsed by 10% or more (a real depression). In reality, GNP contraction was relatively small, and the growth path of output was hardly impeded by the recession (Romer 1988: 108–112; Parker 2002: 2).
Also:
Libertarians claim that the recession of 1920–1921 was short. Of course, what they don’t say is that a recession lasting 18 months is in fact a very long one by the standards of the post-1945 US business cycle. The average duration of US recessions in the post-1945 era of classic Keynesian demand management (1945–1980) and the neoliberal era (1980–2010) has been about 11 months (see Carbaugh 2010: 248 and the data in Knoop 2010: 13; curiously, there has only been one post-1945 US recession that lasted 18 months: the Great Recession of December 2007–June 2009, which was much worse than the 1920–1921 downturn). The average duration of recessions in peacetime from 1854 to 1919 was 22 months (Knoop 2010: 13), and the average duration of recessions from 1919 to 1945 was 18 months (Knoop 2010: 13).
 
It's my biggest bug bear that people hold FDR to such a high position because of crap like the 'new deal' and stuff, when he never once got the private sector to any significance above the 29 high. Not even the war pulled the economy out of the mire. The depression was 15 years long all years with massive government expenditures, and he still couldn't get the private sector growing.

Actually, the DOW took 25 years to get back to it's pre-crash high.
 
The same world war that saw the private sector crash again? :roll: So an unprecedented amount of government expenditure over 15 years is what you need every time you go into recession? Why are we no constantly in depression then?
Of course not. And the Great Depression was unprecedented. The evidence for counter cyclical fiscal policy is clear, the burden of proof is on you to claim that not doing anything will produce better results.
 
Actually, the DOW took 25 years to get back to it's pre-crash high.

Yeah, the biggest crash will do that.. To bad the DOW isn't related to the unemployed, which is all that matters.
 
Have you taken into account the differences in how the economy was measured? As you do know that deflation was considered recessionary, which is why 'depressions' look a lot longer than they actually were in the 1800's.

Deflation goes right along with a recession. And the effects are harmful, which is why we need inflation.
 
DA, the great depression was a downward spiral, this is how things work. Just like the recent recession.
All evidence shows government spending got us out of the depression without unnecessary suffering.

Finally, I suggest you learn better exactitude if you are going to partake in such debates.

All evidence?

It is impossible for you to be aware of ALL the evidence in the world on this matter.

A more accurate statement might have been that 'much of the evidence' or 'all the evidence I have seen'.

Just sayin'...no biggie.


Well, since you mind is clearly closed on this issue and you are making, IMO, such ridiculous statements as calling the 1920/21 Depression a 'minor recession'...clearly further debate with you on this would be a total waste of my time.

So we are done here for now.


Have a nice day.


Oh, a little more advice....over emotional attachment/rebuttals on macroeconomic debates does not further your cause.

Put another way...lighten' up. It's just money, not curing cancer.
 
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Finally, I suggest you learn better exactitude if you are going to partake in such debates.

All evidence?

It is impossible for you to be aware of ALL the evidence in the world on this matter.

A more accurate statement might have been that 'much of the evidence' or 'all the evidence I have seen'.

Just sayin'...no biggie.


Well, since you mind is clearly closed on this issue and you are making, IMO, such ridiculous statements as calling the 1920/21 Depression a 'minor recession'...clearly further debate with you on this would be a total waste of my time.

So we are done here for now.


Have a nice day.

Since we're done, you should read my links. If you disagree, provide your own data.
 
Deflation goes right along with a recession. And the effects are harmful, which is why we need inflation.

No it doesn't deflation can happen regardless of if the economy is shrinking or growing, likewise inflation can similarily occur either way. And no the effects of deflation aren't harmful in certain situations, hell some strong deflationary pressure during the great depression, instead of price fixing enforced by government, could have seriously helped. The problem with deflation is when it's long term and sharp.

Actually, the DOW took 25 years to get back to it's pre-crash high.

Whilst true, the economy did have some furious growth immediately after the war (which, coincides with a reduction in government, further proof government doesn't help the economy), and the Private sector finally recovered with strong growth and finally getting significantly above pre-crash highs in the years after the war, so that's where I consider the horror to be over.
 
Of course. It's a horrible idea.

The actual horrible idea is the government sucking the life out of the economy, that is what we don't want. We also don't want to take too much out of the economy to pay down debt, that is also not doable. Balanced budgets are good, but not necessary 100% of the time. Huge deficits lead to problems down the road, so we don't want to do that. Unfortunately, that's what seems to be the norm these days, and it has to stop.

The notion that we need some over sized, bloated, wasteful government in order to have a good economy is laughable. The government should be the very least that we need for it to function as described in the Constitution, of course. It is far from that.
 
Wonder why we had deficit reductions. Perhaps there is more to the story. Perhaps several years prior to a recession there was excess spending and something had to be done to get the debt down. Or should we just assume that the most immediate preceding events caused the recessions?

For me, I will take the conservative idea and think that eventually spending has to be in line with growth and when it gets out of wack, we have a problem. Perhaps if you could show when excess spending was never restrained and we had continuous excess spending.
 
"From the origins to World War II

In its first 150 years, the government periodically undertook systematic multi-year reductions in the national debt by taking in more revenues than it spent.

Each of six such sustained periods led to one of the six major depressions in our history. The last three of these crashes were the truly significant depressions of the industrial era.

This is the record:

1. 1817-21: In five years, the national debt was reduced by 29 percent, to $90 million. A depression began in 1819.

2. 1823-36: In 14 years, the debt was reduced by 99.7 percent, to $38,000. A depression began in 1837.

3. 1852-57: In six years, the debt was reduced by 59 percent, to $28.7 million. A depression began in 1857..

4. 1867-73: In seven years, the debt was reduced by 27 percent, to $2.2 billion. A depression began in 1873.

5. 1880-93: In 14 years, the debt was reduced by 57 percent, to $1 billion. A depression began in 1893.

6. 1920-30: In 11 years, the debt was reduced by 36 percent, to $16.2 billion. A depression began in 1929.

There have been no such multiyear budget surpluses and debt reductions since World War II and, significantly, no major new depression. The record suggests that reducing the debt never sustained prosperity, even when the debt was virtually wiped out by 1836. The highest deficits were those of world War II, ranging from 20 to 31 percent of Gross National Product. For a few years following the war, the debt was greater than GNP, the only such case in history. The wartime borrowing and spending actually ended the Great Depression.

Post-World War II

Both political parties pledge to balance the budget by 2002, and all budget-balancers hope ultimately to reduce the national debt. In the meantime, the nine recessions of the depression-free postwar decades have each followed reductions in the annual deficits relative to GDP.

Using data developed by Warren B. Mosler, economic analyst for a Florida investment firm, I suggest how some of the recent recessions have been politically significant:

· Deficit reductions, 1971-74, led to the recession that began at the end of 1973; a slow recovery did not help Gerald Ford in 1976.

· Deficit reductions, 1977-80, gave way to a recession in 1980 that damaged Jimmy Carter’s re-election hopes.

· Deficit reductions, 1987-89, were followed by the 1990-91 recession that harmed George Bush.

Meanwhile, the longest period without a recession was from November, 1982 to July, 1990.

The Republicans who now praise that "Reagan boom" never refer to the deficits or blame the Democratic Congress, while Democrats repeatedly attack "Reagan deficits." Neither side seems aware that a steep rise in deficits began in 1981, preceding the "boom" by almost two years.

When deficit reductions finally began in 1987, they paved the way for the next recession. Political irony is everywhere.

When the economy slides downhill, the incumbent president is badly damaged, and it does him little good to proclaim "success" in reducing deficits.

Ronald Reagan suffered no political harm because of the deficits of the 1980s and, even at his advanced age, might have been elected again in 1988 if he had been permitted to run. Whatever citizens say to pollsters, they vote against recessions, not budget deficits.

Driven by what appears to be wholly fallacious economic principles, politicians have put together such monstrosities as the Gramm-Rudman-Hollins deficit-reduction policy and the more recent "zero-sum budgeting" (all new programs must be financed by cuts in existing programs), along with the Clinton administration’s "reinvention of government" ("downsizing") to virtually guarantee a new economic disaster, perhaps more serious than any in recent decades."

Think big deficits cause recessions
If this would just be one instance, you could call it circumstance. If it was a few instances you can use the correlations doesn't imply causation fallacy. But when it happens over a dozen times, it starts to become empirical, and incredibly strong evidence. Which side of history will you take? The sidde of science and observation? OR the side of religious fervor where logic and reason is thrown out the window for ideology?

What does your stats say about the Clinton years?
 
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