Things to make you go "hmmmm"

[ChrisL]

You're holding the data to an unreasonable standard because you don't like the results.

Are you a biologist? Are you a doctor? Are you a chemist?

Do you know anything about measuring hormone levels or the things that might affect them?

The fact of the matter here is that a highly trained team of scientists tested the hormone levels of hundreds of different women over the course of months using saliva samples. In doing so, they regularly found that women with larger breasts had higher levels of estrogen than women with smaller breasts.

I'm sorry, but unless you can come up with some hard evidence saying otherwise, I'm going to take the professionals' word on this. :shrug:



Which is why women with low Waist-to-Hip ratios and large breasts scored highest.

They had the best of both worlds.

Good Lord, your own STUDY acknowledged not to put too much stock into the breast/fertility correlation because of too many variables. :doh You are just being stubborn.

 

[ChrisL]

You're holding the data to an unreasonable standard because you don't like the results.

Are you a biologist? Are you a doctor? Are you a chemist?

Do you know anything about measuring hormone levels or the things that might affect them?

The fact of the matter here is that a highly trained team of scientists tested the hormone levels of hundreds of different women over the course of months using saliva samples. In doing so, they regularly found that women with larger breasts had higher levels of estrogen than women with smaller breasts.

I'm sorry, but unless you can come up with some hard evidence saying otherwise, I'm going to take the professionals' word on this. :shrug:



Which is why women with low Waist-to-Hip ratios and large breasts scored highest.

They had the best of both worlds.

Most women with low hip-to-waist ratios are NOT going to have large breasts unless they have implants. Most are going to have average sized breasts for their height and weight, so that in itself would tell you by common sense that the study results are bogus.

 

[ChrisL]

Let's look at it in another way. Large breasts are mostly fat. Sure, there is some breast tissue, but in LARGE breasts, it is usually more fatty cells than actual breast tissue, which means MOST women with LARGE breasts are going to be obese, or at least overweight. And there ARE more stronger correlations between obesity and infertility. So if it was breast size which indicated fertility, then these obese women with very large breasts would be fertile, but they are prone to being more infertile, and this HAS been demonstrated scientifically. Whereas most thin women are going to have a LOW WTH ratio.

Women in the study who were severely obese were 43% less likely to achieve pregnancy than normal-weight women or women who were considered overweight but not obese during the yearlong study.

The study is among the first to examine the relationship between body weight and infertility in women who ovulate, says researcher Jan Willem van der Steeg, MD, of Amsterdam's Academic Medical Center.

"We found that obesity is an additional risk factor for infertility in women who have regular [menstrual] cycles," he tells WebMD. "This is important given the increase in obesity worldwide."

 

[CLAX1911]

Yes indeed. A lucky few can orgasm from breast stimulation alone.

So can men.

 

[Gathomas88]

Good Lord, your own STUDY acknowledged not to put too much stock into the breast/fertility correlation because of too many variables. :doh You are just being stubborn.

I'm reading it right now, Chris, and that's really not what it says.

Just about the only "variable" it brings up against its findings is the fact that some primitive societies tend to prefer their women fatter, and therefore with a greater WHR than is generally desirable in Western Society.

However, they also provide an explanation for why that is the case. Simply put, being undernourished tends to have a negative impact on a woman's fertility levels.

In primitive societies where food is hard to come by at the best of times, and famine is frequent, this leads heavier women to be viewed as being more attractive, because they have greater fat reserves for times of crisis. In the Western World, however, there is really no threat of any such thing occurring, so we tend to prefer out women slimmer.

No where does the study try to claim that it's findings relating to breast size and estrogen levels were mistaken.

Most women with low hip-to-waist ratios are NOT going to have large breasts unless they have implants. Most are going to have average sized breasts for their height and weight, so that in itself would tell you by common sense that the study results are bogus.

Actually, what that would tell us is that women who have both large breasts and a slim curvy figure are basically the "cream of the crop" in terms of estrogen levels and therefore fertility.

Don't get me wrong. They're not very common. However, some women like that do exist naturally. Where they do exist, they tend to be on the tippy-top of every guy's hit list.

In essence, women with low WHR who get boob jobs are basically trying to "trick" men into thinking that they have higher estrogen, and are therefore more fertile, than they actually are.

 

[CLAX1911]

It's not my fault if you fail to understand the scientific method, Clax. :shrug:

I am not the one failing to understand. :shrug:

 

[CLAX1911]

I would say they are less so (women's change far more extensively -- not just the nipples, but also the shape and color), but yes, to some extent.

I would have to ask, with all due respect, how would you know?

 

[Gathomas88]

Let's look at it in another way. Large breasts are mostly fat. Sure, there is some breast tissue, but in LARGE breasts, it is usually more fatty cells than actual breast tissue, which means MOST women with LARGE breasts are going to be obese, or at least overweight. And there ARE more stronger correlations between obesity and infertility. So if it was breast size which indicated fertility, then these obese women with very large breasts would be fertile, but they are prone to being more infertile, and this HAS been demonstrated scientifically. Whereas most thin women are going to have a LOW WTH ratio.

You left out the other half of the paragraph, Chris.

By contrast, in our study all women were healthy, groups with high WHR did not comprise obese women, and hormone profiles were comprehensively assessed by daily sampling across the entire menstrual cycle.

Why are you assuming that they are talking about obese women when they talk about big breasts?

They're most likely talking and Cs and Ds, not Fs and Gs. :lol:

 

[ChrisL]

I'm reading it right now, Chris, and that's really not what it says.

Just about the only "variable" it brings up against its findings is the fact that some primitive societies tend to prefer their women fatter, and therefore with a greater WHR than is generally desirable in Western Society.

However, they also provide an explanation for why that is the case. Simply put, being undernourished tends to have a negative impact on a woman's fertility levels.

In primitive societies where food is hard to come by at the best of times, and famine is frequent, this leads heavier women to be viewed as being more attractive, because they have greater fat reserves for times of crisis. In the Western World, however, there is really no threat of any such thing occurring, so we tend to prefer out women slimmer.

No where does the study try to claim that it's findings relating to breast size and estrogen levels were mistaken.



Actually, what that would tell us is that women who have both large breasts and a slim curvy figure are basically the "cream of the crop" in terms of estrogen levels and therefore fertility.

Don't get me wrong. They're not very common. However, some women like that do exist naturally. Where they do exist, they tend to be on the tippy-top of every guy's hit list.

In essence, women with low WHR who get boob jobs are basically trying to "trick" men into thinking that they have higher estrogen, and are more fertile, than they actually are.

Nope, breast size obviously has nothing to do with actual fertility, which can be proven by looking at obese women who have large breasts. It's about the WTH ratio and the only reason why that matters is because it is an indicator of good HEALTH. Boob size has nothing to do with health or hormone levels. Boobs don't release hormones.

 

[ChrisL]

You left out the other half of the paragraph, Chris.

​

Why are you assuming that they are talking about obese women when they talk about big breasts?

They're most likely talking and Cs and Ds, not Fs and Gs. :lol:

I'm pointing out the fact that if breast size really had any effect on fertility, then it would effect large women with big breasts as well. It really has nothing to do with any of that and has to everything to do with good health.

Men may mistakenly take some attributes as an indicator of "good health" but that does not necessarily be the case either.

 

[CLAX1911]

Nope, breast size obviously has nothing to do with actual fertility, which can be proven by looking at obese women who have large breasts. It's about the WTH ratio and the only reason why that matters is because it is an indicator of good HEALTH. Boob size has nothing to do with health or hormone levels. Boobs don't release hormones.

It's like talking to one of these sometimes.

 

[Gathomas88]

Nope, breast size obviously has nothing to do with actual fertility, which can be proven by looking at obese women who have large breasts. It's about the WTH ratio and the only reason why that matters is because it is an indicator of good HEALTH. Boob size has nothing to do with health or hormone levels. Boobs don't release hormones.

Fat asses and slim waists don't release hormones either. :roll:

They are an indication of the hormonal content up of a woman's system nevertheless. Breasts serve the same role.

As for the rest of this, you're even trying to understand what the study actually says.

I'm pointing out the fact that if breast size really had any effect on fertility, then it would effect large women with big breasts as well. It really has nothing to do with any of that and has to everything to do with good health.

Men may mistakenly take some attributes as an indicator of "good health" but that does not necessarily be the case either.

No, because an obese woman would be actively unhealthy. The study wasn't talking about obese women, but healthy women.

Healthy women with large breasts can be shown to have higher Estrogen levels than healthy women with small breasts. This means that they are more fertile.

I'm not sure what part of this you're not getting.

 

[ChrisL]

It's like talking to one of these sometimes.

It's annoying because obviously all of the things mentioned are related to good health and/or cues that may make a man THINK of good health. Just because a few women tested with bigger than average breasts who also tended to have healthy BMIs were fertile (or even more fertile than other subjects tested) does not in any way indicate that breasts are in any way responsible for fertility levels IMO. There would just HAVE to be correlations made between smaller-breasted women (who were also healthy) having a more difficult time conceiving BECAUSE they had smaller breasts. I think the whole thing is just silly honestly. Breast do NOT release hormones (unless they have cancerous tumors), and they certainly aren't releasing fertility hormones into the body. That is what the REAL sexual organs do (the ovaries).

 

[Gathomas88]

It's annoying because obviously all of the things mentioned are related to good health and/or cues that may make a man THINK of good health. Just because a few women tested with bigger than average breasts who also tended to have healthy BMIs were fertile (or even more fertile than other subjects tested) does not in any way indicate that breasts are in any way responsible for fertility levels IMO. There would just HAVE to be correlations made between smaller-breasted women (who were also healthy) having a more difficult time conceiving BECAUSE they had smaller breasts. I think the whole thing is just silly honestly. Breast do NOT release hormones (unless they have cancerous tumors), and they certainly aren't releasing fertility hormones into the body. That is what the REAL sexual organs do (the ovaries).

Chris, who the Hell ever said that breasts caused high estrogen levels?

It's the other way around.

A fat ass, slim waist, and big boobs show that a woman has higher estrogen levels, so men find them more attractive. The study doesn't show anything more complicated than that.

 

[ChrisL]

Fat asses and slim waists don't release hormones either. :roll:

They are an indication of the hormonal content up of a woman's system nevertheless. Breasts serve the same role.

As for the rest of this, you're even trying to understand what the study actually says.



No, because an obese woman would be actively unhealthy. The study wasn't talking about obese women, but healthy women.

Healthy women with large breasts can be shown to have higher Estrogen levels than healthy women with small breasts. This means that they are more fertile.

I'm not sure what part of this you're not getting.

It is an indicator of good health. That is all. The study itself acknowledged that there were too many variables involved to draw any definitive conclusions. Just because some women with larger breasts had higher levels of estradiol does NOT mean that is because of or in any related to their breast size. Other factors could play a role in those results.

When one is healthy, that person is going to be more fertile, and that goes for men and women. I'm sure a lot of women with very small breasts are too thin and therefore not very healthy, same with overweight people.

 

[Gathomas88]

It is an indicator of good health. That is all. The study itself acknowledged that there were too many variables involved to draw any definitive conclusions.

No, it does not. It never says anything of that kind.

Just because some women with larger breasts had higher levels of estradiol does NOT mean that is because of or in any related to their breast size. Other factors could play a role in those results.

When one is healthy, that person is going to be more fertile, and that goes for men and women. I'm sure a lot of women with very small breasts are too thin and therefore not very healthy, same with overweight people.

Chris, if you're not going to pay attention to what the science actually says, and insist on inserting your own made up science instead, there is really no point in continuing this conversation.

 

[CLAX1911]

It's annoying because obviously all of the things mentioned are related to good health and/or cues that may make a man THINK of good health. Just because a few women tested with bigger than average breasts who also tended to have healthy BMIs were fertile (or even more fertile than other subjects tested) does not in any way indicate that breasts are in any way responsible for fertility levels IMO. There would just HAVE to be correlations made between smaller-breasted women (who were also healthy) having a more difficult time conceiving BECAUSE they had smaller breasts. I think the whole thing is just silly honestly. Breast do NOT release hormones (unless they have cancerous tumors), and they certainly aren't releasing fertility hormones into the body. That is what the REAL sexual organs do (the ovaries).

Some people just can't accept things.

Some times it's best to let it go.

 

[ChrisL]

Chris, who the Hell ever said that breasts caused high estrogen levels?

It's the other way around.

A fat ass, slim waist, and big boobs show that a woman has higher estrogen levels, so men find them more attractive. The study doesn't show anything more complicated than that.

You are wrong about this too. Obesity causes high estrogen levels to occur within the body, yet obesity also is connected to infertility. Do you see how complicated the issue is? How many variables there are to consider?

Estrogen balance is essential for achieving and maintaining fat loss. In men and premenopausal women, too much estrogen — a condition called estrogen dominance — causes toxic fat gain, water retention, bloating, and a host of other health and wellness issues. In women, with stress and age there is a natural decline in testosterone and progesterone levels, leaving a relative excess of estrogen.

While premenopausal women with too much estrogen tend to have the pear-shape body type with more weight at the hips, both men and menopausal women with this estrogen excess exhibit an apple shape with more fat accumulation in the abdominal area. In fact, excess estrogen is as much a risk factor for obesity — in both sexes — as poor eating habits and lack of exercise.

What causes estrogen dominance?
There are only two ways to accumulate excess estrogen in the body: we either produce too much of it on our own, or acquire it from our environment or diet. Unfortunately, accumulating estrogen is not hard. We are constantly exposed to estrogen-like compounds in foods that contain toxic pesticides, herbicides, and growth hormones. Many of these toxins are known to cause weight gain, which serves to fuel the production of more estrogen from our own fat cells. More weight gain then leads to insulin resistance which, you guessed it, increases the risk of estrogen dominance.

 

[ChrisL]

Some people just can't accept things.

Good health and hormonal balance are what play the biggest roles in a woman's reproductive health, not their breast size. To suggest that is just silly. Women with average sized breasts and small breasts can be very fertile, and women with large breasts can be infertile. People who appear to be the picture of health could be suffering from chronic disease, while a person who appears to be "ugly" could be the picture of perfect health. There are just way too many things involved to draw these conclusions IMO.

 

[CLAX1911]

Good health and hormonal balance are what play the biggest roles in a woman's reproductive health, not their breast size. To suggest that is just silly.

Hate to say it, but look at who you are arguing with. :shrug:

Women with average sized breasts and small breasts can be very fertile, and women with large breasts can be infertile. People who appear to be the picture of health could be suffering from chronic disease, while a person who appears to be "ugly" could be the picture of perfect health.

I know this, you know this, you can lead a horse to water.

There are just way too many things involved to draw these conclusions IMO.

Right, but some people have to be right. Nothing you can really do but let go.

 

[Gathomas88]

You are wrong about this too. Obesity causes high estrogen levels to occur within the body, yet obesity also is connected to infertility. Do you see how complicated the issue is? How many variables there are to consider?

Chris, what on Earth do you think this proves exactly?

How is it in any way related to breast size vs estrogen levels? Pre-menopausal women are supposed to have a lot of estrogen.

If that means that they have to watch what they eat, so what? How does that change anything?

Do you think they had Oreos, Cheese Burgers, and Chocolate Ice Cream in caveman times? A propensity to easily gain weight actually would've been a good thing back then, because food was hard to come by.

Sure, if a woman does become obese, she is going to become less fertile. However, obesity is not a natural state of being anyway, so that means effectively nothing.

All that matters here are the raw estrogen levels.

Estrogen balance is essential for achieving and maintaining fat loss. In men and premenopausal women, too much estrogen — a condition called estrogen dominance — causes toxic fat gain, water retention, bloating, and a host of other health and wellness issues. In women, with stress and age there is a natural decline in testosterone and progesterone levels, leaving a relative excess of estrogen.

While premenopausal women with too much estrogen tend to have the pear-shape body type with more weight at the hips, both men and menopausal women with this estrogen excess exhibit an apple shape with more fat accumulation in the abdominal area. In fact, excess estrogen is as much a risk factor for obesity — in both sexes — as poor eating habits and lack of exercise.

What causes estrogen dominance?
There are only two ways to accumulate excess estrogen in the body: we either produce too much of it on our own, or acquire it from our environment or diet. Unfortunately, accumulating estrogen is not hard. We are constantly exposed to estrogen-like compounds in foods that contain toxic pesticides, herbicides, and growth hormones. Many of these toxins are known to cause weight gain, which serves to fuel the production of more estrogen from our own fat cells. More weight gain then leads to insulin resistance which, you guessed it, increases the risk of estrogen dominance.

 

[ChrisL]

Chris, what on Earth do you think this proves exactly?

How is it in any way related to breast size vs estrogen levels? Pre-menopausal women are supposed to have a lot of estrogen.

If that means that they have to watch what they eat, so what? How does that change anything?

Do you think they had Oreos, Cheese Burgers, and Chocolate Ice Cream in caveman times? A propensity to easily gain weight actually would've been a good thing back then, because food was hard to come by.

Sure, if a woman becomes obese, she is going to become less fertile. However, obesity is not a natural state of being anyway, so that means effectively nothing.

All that matters here are the raw estrogen levels.

​

It means that breast size has absolutely nothing to do with health or hormone levels. Women with small breasts can have high estrogen and estradiol levels, and women with large breasts can have none. It all depends on your health and hormonal balance, and breast size is not an indicator of either. :lol:

 

[Gathomas88]

Good health and hormonal balance are what play the biggest roles in a woman's reproductive health, not their breast size. To suggest that is just silly. Women with average sized breasts and small breasts can be very fertile, and women with large breasts can be infertile. People who appear to be the picture of health could be suffering from chronic disease, while a person who appears to be "ugly" could be the picture of perfect health. There are just way too many things involved to draw these conclusions IMO.

Chris, you're over-thinking it.

Sure, there are exceptions to the rules here and there. However, exceptions are not what we are talking about here. We are talking about generalized trends.

I don't give a flying f*ck if one ugly fat woman with tiny breasts out of 100,000 is more fertile than a woman who looks like Barbie. That's not the point.

The point is that most women who are built like Barbie have higher levels of estrogen, and therefore higher levels of fertility, than most women who are not.

 

[CLAX1911]

It means that breast size has absolutely nothing to do with health or hormone levels. Women with small breasts can have high estrogen and estradiol levels, and women with large breasts can have none. It all depends on your health and hormonal balance, and breast size is not an indicator of either. :lol:

somepeople have a nack for turning a light hearted conversation into a full blown argument.

 

[Gathomas88]

It means that breast size has absolutely nothing to do with health or hormone levels. Women with small breasts can have high estrogen and estradiol levels, and women with large breasts can have none. It all depends on your health and hormonal balance, and breast size is not an indicator of either. :lol:

I'm sorry, Chris, but you're simply wrong.

Every piece of evidence provided so far has shown you are wrong.

I mean... I hate to say it, but there's really no a whole lot else to say here.