They aren't cheering loud enough

[duretti]

Yeah, how dare the media represent those road side bombs, suicide attacks, and "insurgents" hiding within mosques and other civilian targets as terrorists! What an outrage. :roll:

But the roadside bombs, and a significant proportion of the suicide bombings aren't terroristic. Terrorism is defined (in US military manuals) as: "the use of force, or the threat of force against civilians for political ends". Attacks on the US military are not terrorism. Attacks against civilians are given far more coverage respective to the number that occur than attacks against military. Thus the fasle presentation

And yes, when the media relentlessly shows only the most negative images, incessantly misrepresents the terrorism campaign being waged in Iraq by foreign powers as a "civil war," gives us a daily body count accompanied with how many days it's been since Bush declared that the mission was accomplished (he was referring obviously to the invasion), and downplays huge milestones for Iraq...

But this is clearly a claim that they are not cheering loud enough. They are portraying the US military as "good guys" defending against all these negative aspects - rather than the negative aspect themselves. The worst the media claims is that the US military is not doing well enough in their "good work" - which is allegedly preventing all these negative images. I said all this in the original post.

 

[cherokee]

BBC NEWS | Middle East | IEDs: Iraq's deadly roadside bombs. Doesn't look like there is much of a cover up to me. .

Ok that’s one report done 18 August 2006. Where are all the reports of the tens of thousands of Iraqi people the US is killing? Hmmm?
How about this ?…
Al Jazeera English - Middle East

What does work for you then? No hard cold data exists as most of the civilian murders by coalition forces will never be reported - this is a feature of most wars. Such guesses are the best data we have. .

Again something you cant prove at all. A guess wont cut it.

There is more than one kurd in iraq. Whilst some are collaborating with the invaders, there is certainly a kurdish nationalist element to the insurgency. You offer no substantiation to your claims here. ABC News: Insurgency Gains Alarming Support Among Iraq's Sunni Muslims
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm- the masses support the insurgency. .

And this surprises you how? Which sect did Saddam always support? Which group always dominated the others? Which group lost everything when Saddam fell? The answer is…..ding, ding, ding…..SUNNI. What you didn’t know Saddam was a Sunni?
Your second link is “The requested document was not found.”

What group set off bombs in Shia town?....ding, ding, ding…..SUNNI
Al Jazeera English - Middle East

So intimidation makes elections more legitimate? Thats a good one. Coming to think of it, they had that in nazi germany as well. .

What intimidation? Show me a case.

No, I do not believe it is ok. I do believe it is better to focus opposition on larger scale killings - such as those perpetrated by the coalition. Attacks on civilians are not only wrong in their own right, but bad tactics longterm as they severely undermine support. .

Like the ones I showed you before?
Oh but wait it wasn’t the US doing the killing it’s the sunni and shia…

Because sadam would get all the profit from the oil. They dont want the oil per se, they want the huge profits to be gained from selling it to the worlds emergine economies. .

More bullchit! Then why didn’t the US take over after the Gulf War?
Keep dreaming pal…

Whilst US leaders are likely no better than ghengis khan, the US has an (albeit terribly broken) democratic system. There are checks and balances, the whitehouse has to appease congress, and if the american people get too pissed off they can vote them out at the next election. Thus they moderate their actions. .

And what does that have to do with anything? You know nothing about our government.
But you know what? At least I have a SAY in my government!....:2wave:

But the US wasn't after direct control. It was after countries with "free markets", which its corporations could exploit. With the exception of the recent chavez hiccup, it definitely. got that. .

First we are only after oil and now we are not which is it?

Because he went rogue, and tried to take kuwait and its precious precious oil. This had to be stopped. The US supplied a huge chunk of sadams weapons. .

PROVE IT! I told you before who sold him the bulk of his weapons..

Wow. That makes the USA so much better. Iraq is indeed the tip of the iceberg.
Yep. give a someone a gun, and its the fault of the man whos heads he puts it to that hes opressed. .

That is just stupid……but lets go ahead. They have a choice.

 

[cherokee]

Most of saudi arabi is definitely in poverty. Sure, some saudi arabians get crumbs from the table - but its an incredibly tiny minority, and most of those get money because they help to keep the brutal regime in place.

OOP'S....Try again..



Saudi Arabia's economy is petroleum-based; roughly 75% of budget revenues and 90% of export earnings come from the oil industry. The oil industry comprises about 45% of Saudi Arabia's gross domestic product, compared with 40% from the private sector (see below). Saudi Arabia has claimed to be in possession of 260.1 billion barrels of oil reserves (about 24% of the world's proven total petroleum reserves) as of 2003. Moreover, according to the Saudi government, the proven reserves increase gradually as more oil fields are discovered, unlike most other oil-producing countries. It must be noted, however, that, those figures have been contested and that Saudi Arabia's actual reserves may be notably lower. Saudi Arabia was a key player in the successful efforts of OPEC and other oil producing countries to raise the price of oil in 1999 to its highest level since the Gulf War by reducing production.[7]

The government is attempting to promote growth in the private sector by privatizing industries such as power and telecom. Saudi Arabia announced plans to begin privatizing the electricity companies in 1999, which followed the ongoing privatization of the telecommunications company. Shortages of water and rapid population growth may constrain government efforts to increase self-sufficiency in agricultural products.

In the 1990s, Saudi Arabia experienced a significant contraction of oil revenues combined with a high rate of population growth. Per capita income has fallen from $25,000 in 1980 to $8,000 in 2003, up from about $7,000 in 1999. The decline in inflation-adjusted per-capita income from 1980 to 1999 set a record, being by far the worst such decline suffered by any nation-state in history.

In 2003, the price of oil jumped to record high of 40 to 50 dollars, which triggered a second oil boom. Saudi Arabia's budget surplus has crossed $28 billion (110SR billion) in 2005. Tadawul (the Saudi stock market Index) finished 2004 with a massive 76.23% to close at 4437.58 points. Market capitalization was up 110.14% from a year earlier to stand at $157.3 billion (589.93SR billion), which makes it the biggest stock market in the Middle East.‏

OPEC limits its members oil production based on its "proven reserves." The higher their reserves, the more OPEC allows them to produce. Because of this, Saudi Arabia does not allow independent verification of their claimed "proven reserves." Over the past fifteen years, Saudi Arabia's claimed reserves have been flat, with the exception of an increase of about 100 billion barrels between 1987 and 1988. Many experts now believe that Saudi Arabia is greatly exaggerating its reserves and may soon show production declines (see Peak Oil).

To diversify the economy, Saudi Arabia launched a new city on the western coast with investments exceeding 26.6 billion dollars. The city which is named "King Abdullah Economic City" will be built near al-Rabegh industrial city north to Jeddah. The new city, where construction work started in December 2005, includes a port which is the largest port of the kingdom. Extending along a coastline of 35 km, the city will also include petrochemical, pharmaceutical, tourism, finance and education and research areas.

Saudi Arabia officially became a WTO member in December 2005.


Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[duretti]

^ All true. The rulling class of saudi arabia is indeed fantastically wealthy. The common proles, however, are rather poor. Its called capitalism, look it up.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

TOT,

You know, I just realized I don't think I've seen a single thread you've posted in where you didn't resort to calling someone names. Usually, it's after your opponent has backed you into a corner, but you seem to be starting early here.

Hay well I'm going to call you a useful idiot because I wasn't calling names this person is litterally a Nazi and you don't even get why do you boy? Ever hear the names of al-Banna or Sayyid Qutb before son? No? Well then fuc/k off and fuc/k you; next time do some research before you have the audacity to speak to me without me addressing you first; you have nothing to say which interests me and what you do have to say makes me laugh in a sad way.

 

[ashurbanipal]

Hay well I'm going to call you a useful idiot because I wasn't calling names this person is litterally a Nazi and you don't even get why do you boy?

Oh, I think I get why. But I imagine my answer would be rather different from yours.

Ever hear the names of al-Banna or Sayyid Qutb before son? No?

Actually yes. They are (or were) prominent members of the Muslim Brotherhood. They have nothing to do with Naziism though.

Well then fuc/k off and fuc/k you

fuc/k off and fuc/k me? I have a hard time picturing both together...

next time do some research before you have the audacity to speak to me

1) I'll "speak" to you whenever I wish. And given your usual level of discourse, it will hardly take audacity on my part to do so.

2) I would be willing to bet pretty long odds and a considerable sum of money that I have done a lot more research in my life than you have.

3) I will once again repeat my recommendation to you: if you run out of ammo so soon after you begin debating, as a general rule, perhaps you should consider why.

without me addressing you first; you have nothing to say which interests me and what you do have to say makes me laugh in a sad way.

If that's the case, why all the ire?

 

[aquapub]

But the roadside bombs, and a significant proportion of the suicide bombings aren't terroristic. Terrorism is defined (in US military manuals) as: "the use of force, or the threat of force against civilians for political ends". Attacks on the US military are not terrorism.

This is completely intellectually dishonest. The tactics the TERRORISTS are using (including "non-terroristic" tactics like the sectarian mass murders :roll: ) indiscriminantly kill, whereas WE have to take ridiculously careful measures to minimize civilian casualties.

And I suspect the reason the terrorists aren't getting "their side of the story" told as much (apparently you don't read the New York Times or just about any major newspaper, or watch CBS, NBC, ABC, MSNBC, or CNN) is because when journalists approach these "non-terroristic" fellows, they get kidnapped and savagely beheaded.

Moral equivalency (between the terrorists and those fighting them) is a notion too intellectually dishonest and treasonous to come from anyone but a liberal.

 

[cherokee]

Here you blame the US…

Originally Posted by duretti
As is ensuring that oil is not nationalised, so American companies can control it as they do in saudi arabia, ensuring iraq will remain in poverty?

Here you blame the Royal family.

^ All true. The rulling class of saudi arabia is indeed fantastically wealthy. The common proles, however, are rather poor. Its called capitalism, look it up.

Which is it slick?
Will it be the Jewish tomorrow?
I blame the saud's... if they wish to live like that then the hell with them.

Slick my country and government are not perfect, I never said they were, but we are a hell of a lot better then many others I see…

 

[Iriemon]

I Originally Posted by TOT
without me addressing you first; you have nothing to say which interests me and what you do have to say makes me laugh in a sad way.

If that's the case, why all the ire?

Hehe TOT and the other Bush worshipers have had there undies bunched up in a knot since the voters swept the Repubblicans out of power. Personally, I'm really enjoying watching them flail and foam.

 

[aquapub]

But this is clearly a claim that they are not cheering loud enough. They are portraying the US military as "good guys"...

Sure, we've all been asking why Abu Ghirab wasn't covered more.

And we all thought that dastardly "pro-U.S." media protected the troops way too much when they portrayed every tactical shift as "yet another mistake Bush administration."

And it made us all sick when this "pro-American" media gleefully announced how many soldiers had been killed along with how many days it had been since Bush declared the mission accomplished...relentlessly misrepresenting Bush as having declared the rebuilding mission accomplished when they knew full well he was referring to the invasion.

And we all know that every time an accusation against the troops emerges and the media reports it as fact only to correct it weeks or months later on the back pages, that is indicative of a pro-American bias. :roll:

Do you ever watch the news? :bs

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Oh, I think I get why.

Oh I don't think you do.

Actually yes. They are (or were) prominent members of the Muslim Brotherhood. They have nothing to do with Naziism though.

lmfao read on and obsolve yourself from ignorance my poor diluted . . . well you're not my friend:

The Muslim Brotherhood, Nazis and Al-Qaeda

By John Loftus
Jewish Community News | October 4, 2004

It always seems a little strange to have an Irish-Catholic talking about Yom Ha Shoah.


I had an unusual education in the Holocaust. When I was working for the Attorney General, I was assigned to do the classified research about the Holocaust, so I went underground to a little town called Suitland, Maryland, right outside Washington, D.C., and that's where the U.S. government buries its secrets -- literally.

There are twenty vaults underground and each vault is one acre in size. Anyone see the movie “Raiders of the Lost Ark”? The last scene of that movie is what the underground vaults are really like, only not as organized as they are in the movie. And in those underground vaults I discovered something horrible.


I learned that many of the Nazis that I had been assigned to prosecute were on the CIA payroll, but the CIA didn't know they were Nazis because the British Intelligence Service had lied to them. What the British Intelligence Service didn't know was that their liar was Kim Philby, the Soviet communist double agent -- a little scandal of the Cold War. But our State Department swept it all under the rug and allowed the Nazis to stay in America until I was stupid enough to go public with it.

What do you do when you want to go public with a story like this one? You call up “60 Minutes.” We had a great time. Mike Wallace gave me 30 minutes on his show. For a long time, it was the longest segment that "60 Minutes" ever did. When the episode about Nazis in America went on the air back in 1982, it caused a minor national uproar. Congress demanded hearings, Mike Wallace got the Emmy award, and my family got the death threats. It was a great trip.


Then a funny thing happened. Over the last 25 years, every retired spy in the U.S. and Canada and England all wanted me to be their lawyer, for free of course. So I had 500 clients, they paid me $1 apiece. So I am the worst paid lawyer in America, but among the better employed.


Let me give you an example. This year a friend of mine from the CIA, named Bob Baer wrote a very good book about Saudi Arabia and terrorism, it's called Sleeping with the Devil. I read the book and I got about a third of the way through and I stopped. Bob was writing how when he worked for the CIA how bad the files were.

He said, for example, the files for the Muslim Brotherhood were almost nothing. There were just a few newspaper clippings. I called Bob up and said, “Bob, that's wrong. The CIA has enormous files on the Muslim Brotherhood, volumes of them. I know because I read them a quarter of a century ago.” He said, “What do you mean?”


Here's how you can find all of the missing secrets about the Muslim Brotherhood -- and you can do this, too. I said, “Bob, go to your computer and type in two words into the search part. Type the word “Banna,” B-a-n-n-a. He said, “Yeah.” Type in “Nazi.” Bob typed the two words in, and out came 30 to 40 articles from around the world. He read them and called me back and said, “Oh my gosh, what have we done?”


What I'm doing today is doing what I'm doing now: I'm educating a new generation in the CIA that the Muslim Brotherhood was a fascist organization that was hired by Western intelligence that evolved over time into what we today know as al-Qaeda.

Here's how the story began. In the 1920's there was a young Egyptian named al Bana. And al Bana formed this nationalist group called the Muslim Brotherhood. Al Bana was a devout admirer of Adolph Hitler and wrote to him frequently. So persistent was he in his admiration of the new Nazi Party that in the 1930's, al-Bana and the Muslim Brotherhood became a secret arm of Nazi intelligence.

The Arab Nazis had much in common with the new Nazi doctrines. They hated Jews; they hated democracy; and they hated the Western culture. It became the official policy of the Third Reich to secretly develop the Muslim Brotherhood as the fifth Parliament, an army inside Egypt.


When war broke out, the Muslim Brotherhood promised in writing that they would rise up and help General Rommell and make sure that no English or American soldier was left alive in Cairo or Alexandria.


The Muslim Brotherhood began to expand in scope and influence during World War II. They even had a Palestinian section headed by the grand Mufti of Jerusalem, one of the great bigots of all time. Here, too, was a man -- The grand Mufti of Jerusalem was the Muslim Brotherhood representative for Palestine. These were undoubtedly Arab Nazis. The Grand Mufti, for example, went to Germany during the war and helped recruit an international SS division of Arab Nazis. They based it in Croatia and called it the “Handjar” Muslim Division, but it was to become the core of Hitler's new army of Arab fascists that would conquer the Arab peninsula from then on to Africa -- grand dreams.


Read More: FrontPage magazine.com :: The Muslim Brotherhood, Nazis and Al-Qaeda by John Loftus

fuc/k off and fuc/k me? I have a hard time picturing both together...

You would.

1) I'll "speak" to you whenever I wish. And given your usual level of discourse, it will hardly take audacity on my part to do so.

I'd like to see you say that to my face.

2) I would be willing to bet pretty long odds and a considerable sum of money that I have done a lot more research in my life than you have.

Ya that's definately debatable.

3) I will once again repeat my recommendation to you: if you run out of ammo so soon after you begin debating, as a general rule, perhaps you should consider why.

I didn't run out of ammo I ran into a useful idiot.

If that's the case, why all the ire?

Because you make me sick.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Hehe TOT and the other Bush worshipers have had there undies bunched up in a knot since the voters swept the Repubblicans out of power. Personally, I'm really enjoying watching them flail and foam.

Actually I don't like bush, I prefer shaved myself.

 

[cherokee]

But the roadside bombs, and a significant proportion of the suicide bombings aren't terroristic. Terrorism is defined (in US military manuals) as: "the use of force, or the threat of force against civilians for political ends". Attacks on the US military are not terrorism. Attacks against civilians are given far more coverage respective to the number that occur than attacks against military. Thus the fasle presentation
But this is clearly a claim that they are not cheering loud enough. They are portraying the US military as "good guys" defending against all these negative aspects - rather than the negative aspect themselves. The worst the media claims is that the US military is not doing well enough in their "good work" - which is allegedly preventing all these negative images. I said all this in the original post.

More of your Bullchit....:roll:


Lets have a look at attacks against civilian by your friendly insurgents and sects.
The US troops casualites for the same period is 14.
(iCasualties: OIF US Fatalities by month)


(Iraq Coalition Casualties: Iraqi Police and Guardsmen News)
01/12/07 Xinhua: Iraqi police find 37 bodies in Baghdad
Iraqi police said they found 37 unidentified bodies, some of them tortured, in several parts of Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

01/11/07 Reuters: Four Oil Ministry officials kidnapped near Nahrawan
Four Oil Ministry officials were kidnapped from a minibus near Nahrawan, just southeast of Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

01/10/07 Reuters: Gunmen attack Shi'ite pilgrims - 11 killed, 14 wounded
Gunmen opened fire on two buses of Shi'ite pilgrims returning across the desert through the Nukhaib area in Sunni-dominated Anbar province from the haj at Mecca in Saudi Arabia on Wednesday, killing 11 and wounding 14, officials in Kerbala...

01/10/07 Reuters: 60 Bodies found in Baghdad
Police recovered the bodies of 60 people with gunshot wounds and signs of torture from various parts of Baghdad in the 24 hours to Wednesday evening, an Interior Ministry source said.

01/10/07 Reuters: Eight bodies found in Mosul
Police found the bodies of eight people from different districts of Mosul 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, police and hospital sources said.

01/10/07 Reuters: Mortar fire wounds 3 students in Mosul
Three mortar rounds landed near a girls' high school, wounding three pupils as well as two women and three children in nearby houses in the northern city of Mosul, police said.

01/10/07 AP: Two workers shot dead while fixing a water pipe
Just south of Baghdad, gunmen shot dead two workers fixing a water pipe damaged by saboteurs a month earlier, a police colonel said. The workers were killed Tuesday in Madain...and their bodies were removed from the scene on Wednesday.


01/10/07 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds 3 in Kirkuk
A roadside bomb exploded near a car carrying the son of a police colonel, wounding him and two others in the northern city of Kirkuk, 250 km (155 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

01/10/07 AP: Bombs kill 2 in Mahmoudiya
Also Wednesday, two bombs exploded almost simultaneously near a gas station in Mahmoudiya, about 20 miles south of Baghdad, killing two civilians and setting several cars on fire, police said.

01/10/07 BBC: Tortured bodies found on the outskirts of Qaim and Mahawil
Four tortured bodies were found on the outskirts of Qaim, 160km (100 miles) from the Syrian border. Other bodies were discovered in Mahawil Mosul and Iskandariya.

01/10/07 AP: Suicide bomber kills four civilians in Tal Afar
A suicide bomber killed four civilians in a crowd outside a police station Wednesday in the northern Iraqi city Tal Afar, police said. At least 12 people were also injured by the blast when the bomber walked into a crowd of people gathering outside...

01/09/07 Reuters: Gunmen kidnapped head of the customs department
Gunmen kidnapped Abdul Ghafour al-Jouburi, head of the customs department in northern Iraq, police said.

01/09/07 Reuters: Three mortar rounds hit house in Mahmudiya
Three mortar rounds landed on a house in Mahmudiya, 30 km (20 miles) south of Baghdad, killing one person and wounding three from the same family, police said.

01/09/07 Reuters: Forty bodies found in Baghdad
Police found 40 bodies in various parts of Baghdad in the past day, an interior ministry source said.

01/09/07 Reuters: Six bodies found in Mosul
Police found six bodies, including one woman, in the northern city of Mosul, police said.

01/08/07 Reuters: 25 bodies found in Baghdad, 5 in Mosul
Police recovered 25 bodies, mostly of tortured death squad victims, around Baghdad in the 24 hours to Monday evening...Five unidentified bodies were found in different parts of the northern city of Mosul, police and hospital sources said.

01/08/07 Reuters: Two civilians killed by roadside bomb in Baghdad
Two civilians were killed and five wounded when a roadside bomb targeted a convoy of official vehicles in southeastern Baghdad, the Interior Ministry source said.

01/08/07 Reuters: Civilian killed in crossfire between gunmen and Iraqi army forces
Clashes erupted between gunmen and Iraqi army forces in the capital's Sulaikh district, killing one civilian and wounding two others, the Interior Ministry source said.

01/08/07 Reuters: Mortar fire kills two in Baghdad's Amel district
Several mortar rounds hit a residential area in the Amel district of western Baghdad, killing two civilians and wounding four others, an Interior Ministry source said.

01/08/07 Reuters: 15 killed in Baghdad bomb (video)
A roadside bomb killed three civilians in the southeast of Baghdad, while in the west of the city, gunmen ambushed a bus, killing 15. Iraq's Health Ministry now believes at least 23,000 civilians and police were killed in 2006.

01/08/07 Reuters: Gunmen kill six members of a Shi'ite family
Gunmen killed six members of a Shi'ite family while they were packing their furniture to move from their neighbourhood in Doura district in southern Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

01/08/07 Reuters: Iraqi troops kill 26 insurgents
Iraqi army troops killed 26 insurgents and wounded 43 others during the past 24 hours in different parts of Iraq, the Defence Ministry said.

01/08/07 Reuters: Roadside bomb kills policeman in Baghdad
A roadside bomb targeting a police patrol killed a policeman and wounded two, including a civilian, police said.

01/08/07 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds 3 pilgrims in southeastern Baghdad
A roadside bomb exploded near a bus carrying pilgrims and wounded three of them in southeastern Baghdad, police said.

01/08/07 Reuters: Car bomb kills 2 people in Baghdad'a Zaafaraniya district
BAGHDAD - A bomb planted under a car killed two people and wounded two others in the southern Zaafaraniya district of Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

01/08/07 Reuters: Gunmen kidnap senior tribal chief in Salahaddin province
Gunmen kidnapped a senior tribal chief in Salahaddin province named Naji Hussein Jubara, seizing him from his car on the road north of Samarra, police said. Jubara is the brother of the deputy governor of the province.

01/08/07 Reuters: Gunmen ambush bus in Baghdad
Gunmen ambushed a bus carrying workers to Baghdad airport on Monday, underlining the challenge facing the U.S.-backed government in implementing a new security plan aimed at stemming sectarian bloodshed in the capital.

01/07/07 WaPo: War's Toll on Iraqis Put at 22,950 in '06
More than 17,000 Iraqi civilians and police officers died violently in the latter half of 2006, according to Iraqi Health Ministry statistics, a sharp increase that coincided with rising sectarian strife since the February bombing...

01/07/07 Reuters: Four bodies found in Suwayra
Police found four bodies, including one that had been decapitated, in Suwayra, about 45 km (30 miles) south of Baghdad, an interior ministry source said.

01/07/07 KUNA: Five bodies found in Mosul
Meanwhile, the Iraqi Police found five unidentified corpses in separate parts of Mosul. The bodies were shot several times in the head and chest, said a police source.

01/07/07 Reuters: Education Ministry official attacked, two guads killed
Habib al-Shimiri, a senior Education Ministry official, survived a roadside bomb attack on his car near the al-Shaab football stadium in east central Baghdad, but two of his guards were killed, police said.

01/07/07 Reuters: Car bomb kills 2 in Hilla
A car bomb in a market in the town of Hilla, 100 km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, killed two people and wounded 11, police and Interior Ministry sources said, adding that the death toll could climb.

01/07/07 AP: Attackers shot dead Defense Ministry employee
Attackers shot dead a Defense Ministry employee on his way to work south of Baghdad, and a provincial councilman was injured in an assassination attempt in Hillah.
01/07/07 AP: Gunmen kill a Shiite cleric and his son in Mahaweel
In Mahaweel, about 35 miles south of Baghdad, gunmen killed a Shiite cleric and his son as they were heading to a nearby Shiite shrine, police said.

01/07/07 AP: Gunmen kill three in marketplace in southwestern Baghdad
Gunmen drove through a marketplace in southwestern Baghdad, spraying bullets into food and clothing stalls and killing three Sunni Muslim shopkeepers, a police officer said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.

01/07/07 AP: Mortar rounds kill 4 in central Baghdad
A barrage of mortars killed four civilians and wounded five others in central Baghdad after a roadside bomb missed an Iraqi police patrol and killed two pedestrians, police said.

01/07/07 Reuters: Two bodies found in Mosul
The bodies of two people were found shot dead in the outskirts of Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, a witness said.

01/07/07 Reuters: Roadside bomb kills 2 people in Baghdad
A roadside bomb killed two people and wounded two in central Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

01/07/07 Reuters: Police kill one person during demonstration in Samarra
Police commandos killed one person during a demonstration in Samarra, 100 km (60 miles) north of Baghdad, denouncing Saddam Hussein's execution, police said.

01/07/07 Reuters: Gunmen attacked worshippers in Tuz Khurmato
Gunmen attacked worshippers coming out of a mosque and wounded four of them on Saturday in the town of Tuz Khurmato, 70 km (40 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

01/07/07 Reuters: Headless body on Saturday in Riyadh
Police found a headless body on Saturday in the town of Riyadh, 60 km (40 miles) southwest of Kirkuk, police said.

 

[cherokee]

Cont,
01/05/07 Reuters: Mortar rounds kill 4, wound 11 in Baghdad's Zafaraniya district
Mortar rounds hit a crowded market in Zafaraniya district in southeast Baghdad, killing four people and wounding 11, police said.

01/05/07 Reuters: Gunmen kill former colonel in Mosul
Gunmen shot dead a former colonel in Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

01/05/07 Reuters: American civilian contractor taken hostage near Basra
An American civilian contractor of Iraqi origin and two Iraqi translators were taken hostage near the southern city of Basra on Friday, the city governor and police said. The U.S. embassy said it was checking the report.

01/05/07 Reuters: Three bodies found in Iskandariya
Police said they found three bodies bearing signs of torture and bullet wounds in Iskandariya.

01/05/07 Reuters: Gunmen kill former Baath party member and his son in Iskandariya
Gunmen killed a former Baath party member and his son inside his house in the town of Iskandariya, 40 km (25 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

01/04/07 Reuters: Mortar fire kills 5, wounds 4 in Amil district of Baghdad
Mortars hit the Amil district of Baghdad, killing five people and wounding four more, an interior ministry source said.

01/04/07 Reuters: 47 bodies found in Baghdad
Police found the bodies of 47 people, many tortured and shot to death, in various parts of Baghdad over the past 24 hours, an interior ministry source said.

01/04/07 Reuters: Mortar fire wounds three in Baghdad's Hurriya neighbourhood
Three mortars hit the majority Shi'ite neighbourhood of Hurriya in Baghdad, wounding three people, police said.

01/04/07 Reuters: Gunmen kill police colonel in Mosul
A police colonel was killed in a drive-by shooting in Mosul, police said.

01/04/07 Reuters: Gunmen kill member of the Kerbala city council
Gunmen killed Akrem al-Zubaidi, a member of the Kerbala city council, and three of his guards on the main road between Najaf and Kerbala, 110 km (68 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

01/04/07 Reuters: Four bodies found in and around the city of Hilla
The bodies of four people were found shot dead in and around the city of Hilla, 100 km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.


01/04/07 AFP: 13 killed in Baghdad car bomb
A car bomb has killed at least 13 people and wounded 22 near a gas station in western Baghdad's upscale Mansour district. The explosion took place at around 10:30 am in the mainly Sunni district, a defence ministry official told AFP on Thursday.

01/03/07 Reuters: 27 bodies found in Baghdad
Police found 27 bodies in Baghdad over the past 24 hours, many bearing signs of torture and gunshot wounds, an interior ministry source said.

01/03/07 Reuters: Mortar rounds wound people in northwest Baghdad
Five mortars hit the Shi'ite neighbourhood of Shula in northwest Baghdad, wounding nine people, an interior ministry source said.

01/03/07 Reuters: Mortar rounds wound woman and children in Ramadi
A woman and five children were wounded by an insurgent mortar attack in Ramadi on Tuesday, the U.S. military said on Wednesday.

01/03/07 Reuters: Gunmen kill two former Baath party officials near Hilla
Gunmen killed two former Baath party officials near the town of Hilla, 100 km (62 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

01/03/07 Reuters: Gunmen kill six members of a Shi'ite family in Yathrib
Gunmen stormed a house and killed six members of a Shi'ite family on Tuesday in the mainly Sunni tow
n of Yathrib, near Balad, 80 km (50 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

01/03/07 Reuters: Car bomb wounds one in Mansour district of Baghdad
A car bomb near an intersection wounded one person in Mansour district in west-central Baghdad, police said.

01/02/07 Reuters: Mortar attack kills 4, wounds 4 in southern Baghdad
A mortar attack on the Abudschir residential district in southern Baghdad killed four civilians and wounded four others, police said.

01/02/07 Reuters: 45 bodies found in Baghdad
Police in Baghdad found the bodies of 45 people, most apparently the victims of death squads, a police source and an Interior Ministry official said.

01/02/07 ANI: 15 bodies found in Sheikh Omar district of northern Baghdad
Police officials said 15 bodies were discovered in the mainly industrial Sheikh Omar district of northern Baghdad. Today, police said the found 15 more bodies dumped in the north of the city.

01/02/07 Reuters: Three bodies found in Mosul
The hospital in Mosul received the bullet-riddled bodies of three brothers on Monday, hospital and morgue sources said.

01/02/07 Reuters: Five bodies found in Nahrawan
Police found five bodies bearing signs of torture and bullet wounds in the town of Nahrawan, 30 km (20 miles) southeast of Baghdad, police said.

01/02/07 Reuters: Gunmen kidnapped family in the town of Madaen
Gunmen forced a minibus to stop and kidnapped a family in the town of Madaen, 45 km (25 miles) south of Baghdad, Interior Ministry sources said. It was not known exactly how many people were missing.

01/02/07 Reuters: Gunmen kill member of the Diyala provincial council
Gunmen shot dead Ali Majeed Salbokh, a member of the Diyala provincial council, and three of his aides, 20 km (12 miles) east of Baquba on Monday, police said.

01/01/07 Reuters: 40 bodies foound in Baghdad
Police found 40 bodies in Baghdad in the past 24 hours, including 15 in one place near the Sheikh Maa'rouf cemetery in western Baghdad, an interior ministry source

01/01/07 Centcom: IRAQI FEMALE KILLED BY INSURGENT MORTAR ATTACK
An Iraqi female was killed and an Iraqi male was injured during an insurgent mortar attack Dec. 28 northwest of Habbaniyah.


01/01/07 dailytelegraph: Insurgents kill family of five
INSURGENTS shot dead an Iraqi family of five - three children and their parents - as they were driving home to Baghdad from the restive northern city of Mosul, police said Monday.

Reports of Killed by Us Troops………..

01/10/07 AP: 4 family members killed in Baghdad's Sadr City
four members of a family died when their house in Baghdad's Sadr City section was destroyed. Police initially said the attack was from two mortar shells, but later a police official and witnesses said the home was fired on by U.S. aircraft.

01/06/07 AFP: US troops kill four in Baghdad raid
US troops have killed four "terrorists" suspected of making roadside bombs in an early morning raid in Baghdad. The US military has also detained another suspect. The five suspects had first attempted to flee when troops arrived..

01/04/07 LATimes: A promising Iraqi province is now a tinderbox
When U.S. forces killed the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab Zarqawi, six months ago in a village near here, they hoped security would improve in this strategic province just north of Baghdad.


01/01/07 AP: U.S. Troops Kill 6 in Raid in Iraq
U.S. troops killed six people Monday during a raid on a possible safe house for al-Qaida in Iraq, the military said, while the death toll of American service members in Iraq hit 3,000.



01/01/07 AP: Report of U-S aircraft bombing houses in Baghdad
The U-S military says it's looking into a report that U-S aircraft bombed houses near the west Baghdad office of a leading member of a key Sunni political bloc. Police say four members of a family were killed and a guard at the house...

WOW looks to me like the insurgents and sects would rather kill each other...:roll:

 

[MSgt]

Only if you're not concerned about making sure you're right. What if our children turn to us, one day many years from now, and condemn us wholeheartedly for what we are now doing? What if history thinks of us as the wickedest generation of people who ever lived? What if, at the end of our lives (those of us who live to see the end of this bloody mess), we realize that we have lost our honor completely, and we go to our graves as nothing but murderers and thugs?

Again..I don't deal in "what ifs," especially unlikely ones.

I want to live as much as the next guy, but there are some things worse than death.

Like living in oppression and under the brutalities of a monster dictator with no escape towards opportunity?

Now, that said, I'm not sure why it would be some kind of disadvantage for us to try to understand the motives of someone trying to blow us up. I'm not advocating that we just lay down our arms and try to give them a big hug. But if we're doing something that would legitimately anger someone, we ought to stop.

No, you are still not understanding what he is saying. We should always understand our enemy. It helps to better engage him. But, what he is saying is that the media should get in bed with our enemy and give them credibility towards their cause. There is nothing the media can give us that we don't already know about the insurgency or Radical Islam. It would only serve to embolden our enemy and encourage the desperate youth to join somehting they are already twisted about.

 

[MSgt]

Couldn't have asked for a better proof of my point. An objective media does not have enemies.

The comparison to the nazis is ridiculous, as iraqi insurgents (or the sadamist regime before them) have not the slightest chance of invading or conquering the coalition nations.

And who compared them? I merely referenced them as another enemy.

You seem to be highly confused as to who the enemy is. He is not a person or a nation. He does not wear a uniform or murder under a banner. He is loosely organized and his recruitment pool involve millions.

Are we to ignore this exponentially growing threat of religious terrorism in the Middle East, because a nation of Islamics aren't in uniform and invading in force? Is this not what we had been doing all the way up until 2003? Is the Middle East a wreck of infested hate and blame with the exception of Saddam's Baathist Regime in Iraq? Is the dictator who brutalizes his fanaticism into submission the answer to true peace and security? Are we to fix this problem region wide by invading Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Syria or Lebanon or Iran or Jordan? Or can we just use the suffering in Iraq and a ruthless dicator as a means for positive change for all?

 

[MSgt]

And if you read one or two, you may find out that some fighting in Iraq for some strange reason fight because they have some unfathomable objection to a foreign infidel nation militarily occupying their lands.

Well, how insightful of you. Thanks for the common knowledge. Does your knowledge extend beyond the common?

 

[Iriemon]

Well, how insightful of you. Thanks for the common knowledge. Does your knowledge extend beyond the common?

As it is common knowledge, then perhaps there is some reason you neglected it in your post.

 

[MSgt]

You accuse me of lying, then you confirm what you originaly said was a lie. Or do you want us to discount the massacres of the initial invasion and Fallujah? If so, why?

Lying is exactly what you did. You used a figure (unsourced, which I trusted enough to take at value) and attempted to produce whole truth. This is considered a lie amongst grown ups. People die in war. Merely changing the combat death in Fallujah to "massacre" won't allow you to turn the military into a Nazi scourge or a terrorist orgnization.

I would suggest that you make an attempt to study up on the battle of "first" Fallujah beyond Al-Jazeera propaganda and anti-American media. For that matter, I would suggest you learn what war is.

Yep, I am sure military sources are entirely trustworthy :mrgreen:. What proof do you have that these other sources are honest, or that the lancet (a respected medical journal) is dishonest?

What proof of anything do you have? Been there? Experienced it? But, let's use our brains for a moment. Let's check out the credibility of the Lancet report, which other "credible" reports have already shunned for how it conjured up its numbers.....

1) Let's address the highly useless UN.....

More Iraqi civilians were killed in October than in any other month since the American invasion in 2003, a report released by the United Nations on Wednesday said, a rise that underscored the growing cost of Iraq’s deepening sectarian war. According to the report, 3,709 Iraqis were killed in October, up slightly from the previous high in July, and an increase of about 11 percent from the number in September.Civilian Death Toll Reaches New High in Iraq, U.N. Says - New York Times


3,709 x 47 months = 174,323 deaths (655,000?)

2) Let's do it through the Iraqi official numbers who are trying to seperate civilian from combatant.....

"Iraq's government officials reported that 16,273 Iraqi civilians, soldiers and police died violent deaths in 2006, a figure larger than an independent Associated Press count for the year by more than 2,500."
Yahoo! News Search Results for Iraq

16,273 X 4 years = 65,092 deaths (655,000?)

3) But let's do it monthly....

The tally of civilian deaths in Iraq hit a new high of 1,930 in December, suggesting sectarian violence that surged in the summer remains at peak levels.FT.com / In depth - Iraqi civilian deaths hit new monthly high

1,930 X 48 months = 92,640 deaths (655,000?)


And how many of those were, in fact, insurgents mistaken for civilians? Don't talk to me about "sources" and "proof" when yours is only reliant upon headline sensationalism and lies.

Sure, as there were plenty of borgoise indians who would slap you in the face for raising awareness about ghandis nonviolent resistance against the british occupation from which they benefited.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you now as desperate as suggesting that insurgents that are armed with IED's and slaughtering their own Muslims are Gandhis? Are you now trying in vain to suggest that a religion that is very much defined by its origins in the Middle East are practicing Gandhi tactics? What part of Iraq are you seeing this? What part of Islam versus Hindu do you not understand?

No, I was talking about the insurgents themselves, not arab news media. Obviously they will not be a reliable source - but neither are the invaders (as in government sources) which are one of the main sources currently used.

So now you are suggesting that FOX, CNN, ABC, etc. should completely dismiss the fact that they are American citizens as they cling to this nonesense that they claim to belong to a global media? Are they to imbed with our enemies and film their deeds just for the sake of full coverage (entertainment for some civilians?) And if our media is biased towards the military (as you erroniously state) why would you trust what they wouljd say while imbedded with murderers? If Al-Jazeera is untrustworthy (as you admit) how would you trust their input at all? What exactly are trying to present here?

 

[MSgt]

Hay well I'm going to call you a useful idiot

Moderator's Warning:

Civility a must.

 

[duretti]

Titus:
Just as I thought certain of my comrades on the radical left were too eager to use the nazi comparison...
You make 2 enormous errors. First you assume that anyone who argues (as I am) that, in the media, the insurgency recieves a more negative protrayal than the coalition is an islamicist. At best you assume that anyone who considers the insurgency to be a lesser evil to the coalition is a full blooded jihadist. This is patently untrue. From here, you assume that all jihadists are "literal nazis" - again, whilst there are some jihadists with nazi sympathies, this is patently untrue.

For the record, I depise islamicism (religion is the opiate of the masses and all that jazz). However, sadly, i see precious few others standing up to the coalition.

Aquapub:
You appear to have completely missed my point. I am not arguing that the media is biased in favour of conservatives vs liberals. I am arguing that the media is biased in favour of coalition vs insurgents - and that the liberal position is ultimately a pro-coalition one (albeit weaker than the conservative one). Big difference.

Cherokee:
Why does a single nation/group have to be to blame for the situation is saudi arabia. Obviously the saudi rulling class, US corporations and the US government are working together to maintain the opressive status quo, and all benefit from it.

Tell me where I have argued that the coalition *is currently* killing more
than iraqis. My argument is that over the course of the war, iraqi attrocities have been overplayed, and coalition atrocities underplayed in the media.

As for the US being better than most countries... In a great many of those "worse" cases, the US government has a not so small hand in making them that way.

GySgt:
I repeat, *objective media does not have enemies*. And I do not consider islamicists my enemies (don't get me wrong, I don't like them, but they are pretty far down the list).

 

[MSgt]

As it is common knowledge, then perhaps there is some reason you neglected it in your post.

I can only focus on what I focus on in the limitations of a single post. Why don't you read more of my posts for a full understanding of everytihng I have written. Do you need some sort of disclaimer on each and every post so that you don't have to continue to bring up the same common sense and already stated things?

Am I to state all about...

1) Radical Islam
2) American Intillignecia weaknesses
3) American defense spending
4) Mistakes of the Bush Administration and the former OSD
5) Symptoms of a failed civilization with regards to the lesons of history
6) The different roles individual insurgents in Iraq and the international terrorists thta push them
7) America's roles during the Cold War and our sins
8) The make up of the Middle East
9) The psycological make up of the two typoes of terrorists
10) Military tactics
11) Neglected global possibilities
12) The ignorance of the Left White House and the ineptness of the Right White House

....all in one post every single time? Will this allow you your comfort of not having to pick arguments out of everything? Perhaps I should just go ahead and write the book so that you can have it all in one sitting?

 

[MSgt]

But the roadside bombs, and a significant proportion of the suicide bombings aren't terroristic. Terrorism is defined (in US military manuals) as: "the use of force, or the threat of force against civilians for political ends". Attacks on the US military are not terrorism. Attacks against civilians are given far more coverage respective to the number that occur than attacks against military. Thus the fasle presentation

This is a misrepresentation of fact and is a form of lying. Are you aware of what I am? Passing off your opinions is one thing, but trying to use the military to give them credibility is something else.

Joint Publication (JP) 1-02, Department of Defense Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms, defines terrorism as "the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the persuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological."

Within this definition are three key elements-violence, fear, and intimidation. Each element producess terror in its victims. Terrorism is a criminal act that influences an audience beyond the immediate victim. The strategy of terrorists is to commit acts of violence that draw attention of the local populace, the government, and the world to their cause. Terrorists plan their attack to obtain the greatest publicity, choosing targets that symbolize what they oppose. The effectiveness of the terrorist act lies not in the act itself, but in the public's or government's reaction to the act. Today, the Islamic terrorists and the insurgency in Iraq are focused on you when they slaughter their own. They are striving to create such a carnage that people will demand them their victory by opposing their enemies.

And this is the side you want to see get a fair shake in the media? This is the "nonviolent" resistance in Iraq? The roadside bombs that destroy families and and civilians at market is "not terroristic?"

 

[cherokee]

I love how cherokee sets such widely different standards of proof for himself and others. He can declare huge swathes of articles BS by merely looking at their titles (im assuming he didn't read them all), and dismiss a book based on an unsubstantiated one line ad hominem against the man who wrote it - but the findings of a respected medical journal apparently offer no support to arguments opposed to his own..

Try again…. I read them all. As I have said before I don’t use just one source. I have the world at my fingertips just as you do. I suggest you do the same.

I would also suggest you read as well. Would you like my user name and password so that you cant read it as well?

Elsevier

The Lancet 2006; 368:1421-1428
DOI:10.1016/S0140-6736(06)69491-9

Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional cluster sample survey

Interpretation
The number of people dying in Iraq has continued to escalate. The proportion of deaths ascribed to coalition forces has diminished in 2006, although the actual numbers have increased every year. Gunfire remains the most common cause of death, although deaths from car bombing have increased.

Snip………………….
Most violent deaths were due to gunshots (56%); air strikes, car bombs, and other explosions/ordnance each accounted for 13–14% of violent deaths. The number of deaths from gunshots increased consistently over the post-invasion period, and a sharp increase in deaths from car bombs was noted in 2006.
Violent deaths that were directly attributed to coalition forces or to air strikes were classified as coalition violent deaths. In many other cases the responsible party was not known, or the households were hesitant to specifically identify them.

Snip……………….
Our data show that gunfire is the major cause of death in Iraq, accounting for about half of all violent deaths. Deaths from air strikes were less commonly reported in 2006 than in 2003–04, but deaths from car explosions have increased since late 2005. The proportion of violent deaths attributed to coalition forces might have peaked in 2004; however, the actual number of Iraqi deaths attributed to coalition forces increased steadily through 2005. Deaths were not classified as being due to coalition forces if households had any uncertainty about the responsible party; consequently, the number of deaths and the proportion of violent deaths attributable to coalition forces could be conservative estimates. Distinguishing criminal murders from anti-coalition force actions was not possible in this survey.

Snip……………

Although interviewers used a robust process for identifying clusters, the potential exists for interviewers to be drawn to especially affected houses through conscious or unconscious processes. Although evidence of this bias does not exist, its potential cannot be dismissed.31 Furthermore, families might have misclassified information about the circumstances of death. Deaths could have been over or under-attributed to coalition forces on a consistent basis. The numbers of non-violent deaths were low, thus, estimation of trends with confidence was difficult. Not sampling two of the Governorates could have underestimated the total number of deaths, although these areas were generally known as low-violence Governorates. Finally, the sex of individuals who had died might not have been accurately reported by households. Female deaths could have been under-reported, or there might have been discomfort felt in reporting certain male deaths.

 

[cherokee]

Cherokee: Why does a single nation/group have to be to blame for the situation is saudi arabia. Obviously the saudi rulling class, US corporations and the US government are working together to maintain the opressive status quo, and all benefit from it.

And who's fault is it they live under these conditions? Is it not the of SA and the people who give them the power to control them IE..the people of SA?

Tell me where I have argued that the coalition *is currently* killing more
than iraqis. My argument is that over the course of the war, iraqi attrocities have been overplayed, and coalition atrocities underplayed in the media.

So now you change to "*is currently*"? Nice try...
Your argument/message is clear..:roll:


Originally Posted by duretti
Completely agreed. But the civilian deaths caused in this way are a drop in the ocean compared to the coalition bombings of iraqi cities.

Originally Posted by duretti
I suppose destroying their infrastructure and law & order was doing everything they can to help? As was killing over 100000 civilians by 2004 (lancet study again)? As is ensuring that oil is not nationalised, so american companies can control it as they do in saudi arabia, ensuring iraq will remain in poverty?

Originally Posted by duretti
No, I do not believe it is ok. I do believe it is better to focus opposition on larger scale killings - such as those perpetrated by the coalition. Attacks on civilians are not only wrong in their own right, but bad tactics longterm as they severely undermine support.

Originally Posted by duretti
In contrast, Whilst the coalition is responsible for a very large percentage of civilian deaths (84% by october 2004), only a tiny fraction of the coverage given to iraqi civilian deaths is that of those killed by the coalition.