There is no such thing as the "secular" western

[RGacky3]

All of so-called "secular" ideologies, even secularism itself, is full of theological pressupositions.

Libertarianism presumes the primacy of the individual, human freedom, the right to property over nature, mankinds autonomy, a sort of equality of man, secular socialism presumes the value of each individual, the same sort of equality libertarianism presumes, it assumes concepts of justice and the rights of the commons.

These are all theological claims, where do human rights come from? Where does individual autonomy come from? where does human freedom come from? Where do concepts of justice come from?

The so-called secularist just assumes them.

You have so-called secularists making a God out of the Market Place, or out of Democracy, or out of a constitution, but just without calling it a God, or perhaps out of science, trying to make scientism a God and derive value judgements from science which simply do not exist in science.

so called secularists want to latch on to the Legacy of Christian theology (concepts of equality, justice, individual freedom and autonomy, human rights and the innate value of man) which gave the World Things like Democracy, human rights, right to Liberty and so on, but destroy it's Foundation, but what Foundation is there in it's Place? There is none.

Instead secularists continue pretending they've gotten rid of the sacred, when instead they cling on to aspects of it. (BTW if you really want to see a society that actually is secular, go to China, that's what a real secular society looks like).

 

[Reformedfindlay]

All of so-called "secular" ideologies, even secularism itself, is full of theological pressupositions.

Libertarianism presumes the primacy of the individual, human freedom, the right to property over nature, mankinds autonomy, a sort of equality of man, secular socialism presumes the value of each individual, the same sort of equality libertarianism presumes, it assumes concepts of justice and the rights of the commons.

These are all theological claims, where do human rights come from? Where does individual autonomy come from? where does human freedom come from? Where do concepts of justice come from?

The so-called secularist just assumes them.

You have so-called secularists making a God out of the Market Place, or out of Democracy, or out of a constitution, but just without calling it a God, or perhaps out of science, trying to make scientism a God and derive value judgements from science which simply do not exist in science.

so called secularists want to latch on to the Legacy of Christian theology (concepts of equality, justice, individual freedom and autonomy, human rights and the innate value of man) which gave the World Things like Democracy, human rights, right to Liberty and so on, but destroy it's Foundation, but what Foundation is there in it's Place? There is none.

Instead secularists continue pretending they've gotten rid of the sacred, when instead they cling on to aspects of it. (BTW if you really want to see a society that actually is secular, go to China, that's what a real secular society looks like).

Religion didn't give the world democracy, democracy first began in Ancient Greece which is widely known for having anything but a strong presence of a monotheistic religion.

Religion certainly is good, just not as good as you have made it out to be. And yeah, China is scary as ****, those people have absolutely no freaking values or morals whatsoever.

My view on religion = In the past (pre feudalism) SUPER USEFUL

Feudalism era = TERRIBLE AS **** WITH CORRUPTION

Modern era = Potential to become better once again and with pope francis is at least being steered towards the right direction

The reason why we refer to our values as secular even if they may have been from religious values (which I have never heard in my life, I have always said and heard that the U.S. laws are based on Christian values) is because of the mass corruption of the church in earlier history. Once people began the renaissance and later on the enlightenment (as well as in between with famous philosophers/writers/etc. arguing for undeniable human rights) the church began to be extremely oppressive. So much so a rather huge break came off from it and people didn't want to view the world religiously anymore. Secular viewpoints began to overcome the once dominant traditional religious viewpoints. The church would have paintings full of women being lesser than men, women couldn' even participate to be priests or anything and had NO power in the church hierarchy. So just to be clear, the Christian views that you seem to praise so much have really basic goods but tons of bad.

 

[RGacky3]

Religion didn't give the world democracy, democracy first began in Ancient Greece which is widely known for having anything but a strong presence of a monotheistic religion.

Religion certainly is good, just not as good as you have made it out to be. And yeah, China is scary as ****, those people have absolutely no freaking values or morals whatsoever.

My view on religion = In the past (pre feudalism) SUPER USEFUL

Feudalism era = TERRIBLE AS **** WITH CORRUPTION

Modern era = Potential to become better once again and with pope francis is at least being steered towards the right direction

The reason why we refer to our values as secular even if they may have been from religious values (which I have never heard in my life, I have always said and heard that the U.S. laws are based on Christian values) is because of the mass corruption of the church in earlier history. Once people began the renaissance and later on the enlightenment (as well as in between with famous philosophers/writers/etc. arguing for undeniable human rights) the church began to be extremely oppressive. So much so a rather huge break came off from it and people didn't want to view the world religiously anymore. Secular viewpoints began to overcome the once dominant traditional religious viewpoints. The church would have paintings full of women being lesser than men, women couldn' even participate to be priests or anything and had NO power in the church hierarchy. So just to be clear, the Christian views that you seem to praise so much have really basic goods but tons of bad.

Ancient Greek Democracy has nothing to do With modern Democracy, the ideology of ancient greek Democracy was that the greek Citizen was supreme, it had NOTHING to do With human nature, it was straight racial supremism.

Modern Democracy comes out of the idea that every human is the image of God.

When it comes to modern Democracy and socialism and liberalism, I dont' think it's a suprise that it came With the reformation, that when christianity became Public, and People could do theology themselves, that's when the actual moral outcomes of Christianity comes to bare.

But even before then, the ideas of universal education, Public Healthcare, abolition of slavery, ideas of the commons and so on that existed in the middle ages came from Christianity whereas in the pre-Christian Roman empire those concepts didn't exist.

I have no problem With the use of "secular" inso far as it's divorced from institutions of religion, however, as being totally divorced from "religion" and the "sacred" totally .... it simply doesn't, and cannot exist.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

Ancient Greek Democracy has nothing to do With modern Democracy, the ideology of ancient greek Democracy was that the greek Citizen was supreme, it had NOTHING to do With human nature, it was straight racial supremism.

Modern Democracy comes out of the idea that every human is the image of God.

When it comes to modern Democracy and socialism and liberalism, I dont' think it's a suprise that it came With the reformation, that when christianity became Public, and People could do theology themselves, that's when the actual moral outcomes of Christianity comes to bare.

But even before then, the ideas of universal education, Public Healthcare, abolition of slavery, ideas of the commons and so on that existed in the middle ages came from Christianity whereas in the pre-Christian Roman empire those concepts didn't exist.

I have no problem With the use of "secular" inso far as it's divorced from institutions of religion, however, as being totally divorced from "religion" and the "sacred" totally .... it simply doesn't, and cannot exist.

Modern democracy takes directly from Ancient Athens in many ways, of course there are differences. The only major differences being that women didn't have equal power. However, the whole debate here was whether or not Christianity's ideals inspired democracy which it absolutely did NOT. Ancient Greek, SPECIFIC times in medieval Europe, the enlightenment, all those secular eras (Greek being mixed with divine however but not Christianity) brought about the coming of modern representative democracy. Not Christianity.

Universal education came from kings, not popes, the only thing educationally the church was able to accomplish was the retaining of roman culture and society when Rome fell in order to give it on to people. The only times the church educated someone was if it was a person in the clergy, they didn't educate the common illiterate people. The church was too busy giving out indulgences

You're right about ideas existing n the middle ages but not from christianity, especially not from medieval christianity, are you high? Only corruption came from that.

 

[RGacky3]

Modern democracy takes directly from Ancient Athens in many ways, of course there are differences. The only major differences being that women didn't have equal power. However, the whole debate here was whether or not Christianity's ideals inspired democracy which it absolutely did NOT. Ancient Greek, SPECIFIC times in medieval Europe, the enlightenment, all those secular eras (Greek being mixed with divine however but not Christianity) brought about the coming of modern representative democracy. Not Christianity.

Universal education came from kings, not popes, the only thing educationally the church was able to accomplish was the retaining of roman culture and society when Rome fell in order to give it on to people. The only times the church educated someone was if it was a person in the clergy, they didn't educate the common illiterate people. The church was too busy giving out indulgences

You're right about ideas existing n the middle ages but not from christianity, especially not from medieval christianity, are you high? Only corruption came from that.

When it's coming to greek Democracy ... you're totally missing slavery ... Women didn't vote, but slaves didn't vote either, Democracy in athens was not based on the idea that all men are created Equal.

the Englightenment came out of religion, and was anti-Institutional catholocism, but not at all anti-religion.

Universal education and Healthcare started in the eastern Christian Roman Empire, in the west the clergy did only educate the clergy, only because that's the only thing they were capable of doing as of then.

 

[joG]

..... (BTW if you really want to see a society that actually is secular, go to China, that's what a real secular society looks like).

You really believe that? I suspect you might want to reconsider. Their religion might look different, but a belief and code are a belief and code. And that they seem to have. Don't know how else it could be, actually.

 

[RGacky3]

You really believe that? I suspect you might want to reconsider. Their religion might look different, but a belief and code are a belief and code. And that they seem to have. Don't know how else it could be, actually.

Not the ruling Powers, individual People may have a belief, but the institutions are fully secular.

 

[joG]

Not the ruling Powers, individual People may have a belief, but the institutions are fully secular.

If you say so. But party that suppresses religions and other beliefs is not actually secular, is it?

 

[RGacky3]

If you say so. But party that suppresses religions and other beliefs is not actually secular, is it?

Why not? When you abandon religion and the moral framework it's worldview creates, why not suppress religions and ideologies that conflict With Your stated goals? If anything that seams ACTUALLY secular, a nihilistic, market driven, society based on might makes right.

 

[joG]

Why not? When you abandon religion and the moral framework it's worldview creates, why not suppress religions and ideologies that conflict With Your stated goals? If anything that seams ACTUALLY secular, a nihilistic, market driven, society based on might makes right.

Yes, you can define the thing so. But then believing there is no deity or that we don't know or in the market or such does not constitute religion either. And then I don't really see the difference you are outlining.

 

[RGacky3]

Yes, you can define the thing so. But then believing there is no deity or that we don't know or in the market or such does not constitute religion either. And then I don't really see the difference you are outlining.

Oh no, I'm saying in the context of a secular Chinese society, there is no reason why they should not suppress religions or ideologies they don't like ...

 

[joG]

Oh no, I'm saying in the context of a secular Chinese society, there is no reason why they should not suppress religions or ideologies they don't like ...

Well putting aside the fact that it very much depends on whom you mean with "they", suppressing groups in a complex society is usually a competitive disadvantage in long run and often even middel term I will just let that go. I do not see why China is different, but okay.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

When it's coming to greek Democracy ... you're totally missing slavery ... Women didn't vote, but slaves didn't vote either, Democracy in athens was not based on the idea that all men are created Equal.

the Englightenment came out of religion, and was anti-Institutional catholocism, but not at all anti-religion.

Universal education and Healthcare started in the eastern Christian Roman Empire, in the west the clergy did only educate the clergy, only because that's the only thing they were capable of doing as of then.

Your OP put emphasis not on religion as a whole but mainly on Christianity. Also, the bible condoned slavery.

Democracy in Athens wasn't democracy as we see it but it evolved into the democracy we know and it had NOTHING to do with religion. NOTHING at all.

The enlightenment didn't come out of religion, you're full of **** until you can give me a source for that. Rather, the enlightenment came as a push from intellectuals who wanted change, to see humanity improve, to disprove traditional religious doctrine and belief. The enlightenment refined everything, religion itself included, but it did not COME from religion, it rather, came as a response TO religion at the time.

Government oppression of religion also came from the Byzantine Empire, democracy sure as **** didn't come out of the Byzantine empire.

Prove the clergy had absolutely no ability to educate anyone else. Not that they couldn't without some sacrifice, but that they absolutely positively COULD NOT teach ANY of the populace at all no matter how small, because that's how much they educated the populace.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

Well putting aside the fact that it very much depends on whom you mean with "they", suppressing groups in a complex society is usually a competitive disadvantage in long run and often even middel term I will just let that go. I do not see why China is different, but okay.

Because China is hilariously oppressive to everyone's standards. It has huge technology embargoes placed on it simply because of its violation of human rights (hence why I don't understand why people are so afraid of China when their technology is stuck in the 50's).

 

[RGacky3]

Your OP put emphasis not on religion as a whole but mainly on Christianity. Also, the bible condoned slavery.

Democracy in Athens wasn't democracy as we see it but it evolved into the democracy we know and it had NOTHING to do with religion. NOTHING at all.

The enlightenment didn't come out of religion, you're full of **** until you can give me a source for that. Rather, the enlightenment came as a push from intellectuals who wanted change, to see humanity improve, to disprove traditional religious doctrine and belief. The enlightenment refined everything, religion itself included, but it did not COME from religion, it rather, came as a response TO religion at the time.

Government oppression of religion also came from the Byzantine Empire, democracy sure as **** didn't come out of the Byzantine empire.

Prove the clergy had absolutely no ability to educate anyone else. Not that they couldn't without some sacrifice, but that they absolutely positively COULD NOT teach ANY of the populace at all no matter how small, because that's how much they educated the populace.

Christianity mainly because Christianity is what mainly shaped western society.

The bible does not condone slavery, it recognizes it as a reality in its time, but doesn't condone it.

The Democracy in athens did not evolve into the democracy we know, it dissapeared, and democracy resurfaced in europe in a totally different form with a totally different ideological framework, and that was christianity.

The enlightenment ASSUMED christian ethics, the equality of man, the sacred nature of man, you won't find thinker in the liberal enlightenment area that doesn't assume a christian worldview.

Democracy didn't come from the Byzantine empire, no ... didn't claim it did.

Of coarse I can't PROVE it, no one can, but we have writings from early middle ages clergy saying that education of the populace and bringing the knowledge of the greeks to the public was a goal.

 

[RGacky3]

Well putting aside the fact that it very much depends on whom you mean with "they", suppressing groups in a complex society is usually a competitive disadvantage in long run and often even middel term I will just let that go. I do not see why China is different, but okay.

They is just anyone that can get away and benefit fomr suppressing whoever they want.

It seams to be working very well in China, Chinese Authoritarian Capitalism is essencially the natural ideology that comes out of secularism if it's takeng philosophically seriously.

 

[blarg]

All of so-called "secular" ideologies, even secularism itself, is full of theological pressupositions.

Libertarianism presumes the primacy of the individual, human freedom, the right to property over nature, mankinds autonomy, a sort of equality of man, secular socialism presumes the value of each individual, the same sort of equality libertarianism presumes, it assumes concepts of justice and the rights of the commons.

These are all theological claims, where do human rights come from? Where does individual autonomy come from? where does human freedom come from? Where do concepts of justice come from?

The so-called secularist just assumes them.

You have so-called secularists making a God out of the Market Place, or out of Democracy, or out of a constitution, but just without calling it a God, or perhaps out of science, trying to make scientism a God and derive value judgements from science which simply do not exist in science.

so called secularists want to latch on to the Legacy of Christian theology (concepts of equality, justice, individual freedom and autonomy, human rights and the innate value of man) which gave the World Things like Democracy, human rights, right to Liberty and so on, but destroy it's Foundation, but what Foundation is there in it's Place? There is none.

Instead secularists continue pretending they've gotten rid of the sacred, when instead they cling on to aspects of it. (BTW if you really want to see a society that actually is secular, go to China, that's what a real secular society looks like).

nah just want people to be treated in the way you would like to be treated and you can develop molarity without gods even if people with gods say to do the same no worship just a degree of sensible self interest

 

[blarg]

When it's coming to greek Democracy ... you're totally missing slavery ... Women didn't vote, but slaves didn't vote either, Democracy in athens was not based on the idea that all men are created Equal.

the Englightenment came out of religion, and was anti-Institutional catholocism, but not at all anti-religion.

Universal education and Healthcare started in the eastern Christian Roman Empire, in the west the clergy did only educate the clergy, only because that's the only thing they were capable of doing as of then.

sounds like are democracy at the start you can vote if your male land owner with sufficient land

 

[Reformedfindlay]

Christianity mainly because Christianity is what mainly shaped western society.

The bible does not condone slavery, it recognizes it as a reality in its time, but doesn't condone it.

The Democracy in athens did not evolve into the democracy we know, it dissapeared, and democracy resurfaced in europe in a totally different form with a totally different ideological framework, and that was christianity.

The enlightenment ASSUMED christian ethics, the equality of man, the sacred nature of man, you won't find thinker in the liberal enlightenment area that doesn't assume a christian worldview.

Democracy didn't come from the Byzantine empire, no ... didn't claim it did.

Of coarse I can't PROVE it, no one can, but we have writings from early middle ages clergy saying that education of the populace and bringing the knowledge of the greeks to the public was a goal.

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."

From that nasty piece of **** chapter in the bible known as Leviticus.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

My current stance in all this = I agree with the fundamental idea that the OP is presenting but not to the extent in which he presents it.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

All of so-called "secular" ideologies, even secularism itself, is full of theological pressupositions.

Libertarianism presumes the primacy of the individual, human freedom, the right to property over nature, mankinds autonomy, a sort of equality of man, secular socialism presumes the value of each individual, the same sort of equality libertarianism presumes, it assumes concepts of justice and the rights of the commons.

These are all theological claims, where do human rights come from? Where does individual autonomy come from? where does human freedom come from? Where do concepts of justice come from?

The so-called secularist just assumes them.

You have so-called secularists making a God out of the Market Place, or out of Democracy, or out of a constitution, but just without calling it a God, or perhaps out of science, trying to make scientism a God and derive value judgements from science which simply do not exist in science.

so called secularists want to latch on to the Legacy of Christian theology (concepts of equality, justice, individual freedom and autonomy, human rights and the innate value of man) which gave the World Things like Democracy, human rights, right to Liberty and so on, but destroy it's Foundation, but what Foundation is there in it's Place? There is none.

Instead secularists continue pretending they've gotten rid of the sacred, when instead they cling on to aspects of it. (BTW if you really want to see a society that actually is secular, go to China, that's what a real secular society looks like).

It is a cute argument that attempts to place nonbelievers in a defensive position designed to assign a multifaceted accusation onto anyone silly enough to fall for the bait.




I suspect that you purposely left out the fact that you are really attacking secular humanism.

 

[Medusa]

When it's coming to greek Democracy ... you're totally missing slavery ... Women didn't vote, but slaves didn't vote either, Democracy in athens was not based on the idea that all men are created Equal.

the Englightenment came out of religion, and was anti-Institutional catholocism, but not at all anti-religion.

Universal education and Healthcare started in the eastern Christian Roman Empire, in the west the clergy did only educate the clergy, only because that's the only thing they were capable of doing as of then.

can you clarify your statement ?

 

[CLAX1911]

Why are people granting these things to religion? Religion is incensed incapable of giving us anything. The golden rule gave us religion.

 

[the_recruit]

Libertarianism presumes the primacy of the individual, human freedom, the right to property over nature, mankinds autonomy, a sort of equality of man, secular socialism presumes the value of each individual, the same sort of equality libertarianism presumes, it assumes concepts of justice and the rights of the commons.

These are all theological claims, where do human rights come from? Where does individual autonomy come from? where does human freedom come from? Where do concepts of justice come from?

There are a multitude of philosophical bases for (and against) these concepts that have nothing to do with a God (or lackthereof). Hell, there are entire branches of philosophy dedicated to such discussions (e.g. metaethics).

 

[the_recruit]

Why not? When you abandon religion and the moral framework it's worldview creates, why not suppress religions and ideologies that conflict With Your stated goals? If anything that seams ACTUALLY secular, a nihilistic, market driven, society based on might makes right.

This is just pure ignorance on your part. You're mistaking atheism for nihilism. Not many philosophers accept nihilism (error theory to be precise) actually. Not at all. Most accept one of the various realist frameworks, such as non-naturalism. I'll point you toward some introductory reading on the basis of morality in philosophy, but I know you're not actually interested in learning.

Metaethics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)